Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian [moved thread]

[Leaf473]

I know the Sabbath was made for me. His name is Jesus Christ, and He is the body of the "shadow" found in Colossians 2:16-17.

Col 2:16 Let no one, then, judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or of a new moon, or of sabbaths,
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of the coming things, and the body is of the Christ;


I rest in His works on the cross of Calvary.

That is the Gospel of the New Covenant found below.

I am not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. I am come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24.

Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
Heb 12:19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
Heb 12:20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
Heb 12:21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

.

This came to my mind after reading your post. From Galatians 4,

These things contain an allegory, for these are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children to bondage, which is Hagar.

 

[Icyspark]

Sorry spark, it is your assumption that I believe once saved always saved. Jn 3:16 is one of many new covenant promises we all should claim. It is your belief system that claims we have to keep the Sabbath of the old covenant in order to be saved. There is not one word in all scripture that makes that claim. Abraham was not saved because he kept laws and neither were the Israelites. If any of them are lost it is because they lost their faith.

Hi Bob S,

You continue to illustrate that you refuse to acknowledge that a covenant is an agreement. The Ten Commandments are not the agreement. The commandments are what the people agreed/covenanted to keep. The problem with the old covenant/agreement was not with God's perfect law but with the PEOPLE:

Hebrews 8:7-9
For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant[agreement], no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found FAULT WITH THE PEOPLE and said:

“The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. 9 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.​

Reading the above passage about the new covenant please answer this one question: What was wrong with the old covenant/agreement? Here's a hint. The answer is in verse 9.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Icyspark]

Post modern?? Whatever that means. At least I don't take my cue from one of many 19th century prophets.

Hi Bob S,

Here's how the Summit Ministries website describes postmodernism:

"Pre-modern era was one in which religion was the source of truth and reality. God’s existence and revelation were givens in the culture. In the modern era, science became the source for truth and reality. During this period, religion and morality were arbitrarily demoted to the subjective realm. In the present, postmodern era, there is no single defining source for truth and reality beyond the individual. Postmodernism simply radicalized relativism and individualism and then applied them to all spheres of knowledge — even science.

"In a postmodern world, truth and reality are understood to be individually shaped by personal history, social class, gender, culture, and religion. These factors, we are told, combine to shape the narratives and meanings of our lives. In this sense they are culturally embedded, localized social constructions without any universal application. Postmoderns are suspicious of people who make universal truth claims. Such claims of universal meaning are viewed as imperialistic efforts to marginalize and oppress the rights of others. The most important value of postmodernity is the inadmissibility of all totalizing ways of viewing any dimension of life. Postmodernity, as a worldview, refuses to allow any single defining source for truth and reality. The new emphasis is on difference, plurality and selective forms of tolerance.

"Postmodern thinking is full of absurdities and inconsistencies. It is, for example, the worldview that says no worldview exists. It is an anti-theory that uses theoretical tools to neutralize all theories. It demands an imposed uniformity in an effort to resist uniformity. It employs propositional statements to negate truth based on propositional statements."​

Whether you understand it or not, that's what I believe you're doing. Postmoderns read into the Bible
their own "truths" regardless of what the Bible actually says. Postmoderns wouldn't have any trouble with the idea of adding or subtracting from the Bible to make it say whatever they desire. Voila!

Since you like examples, here's one. Jesus says, "The Sabbath was made for human beings." Postmodern thinkers reject the words of Jesus and instead insert their own belief and reword Jesus's clear statement and make it say, "The Sabbath was made for the JEWS." Isn't that your contention? Aren't you always saying that the Sabbath is only for the Jews? How is it then that you allow yourself to edit the words of Jesus?

Just so we're clear that this is exactly what you're doing here's a quote from you:

I believe it is wrong to try to teach others that we all have to obey ritual laws such as tithing, clean and unclean, Sabbaths or any other ritual law that God gave Israel. Those were given only to the nation of Israel

Jesus, as the Creator of the heavens and the Earth, made the Sabbath on the seventh day of creation. There weren't any Jews then and as Jesus said above, He made the Sabbath for "human beings." So unless one embraces a postmodern belief system in which truth is relative, how do you get to insert your own beliefs into something where Jesus is explicit? Is Jesus the final arbiter of truth or are you?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[guevaraj]

This came to my mind after reading your post. From Galatians 4, These things contain an allegory, for these are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children to bondage, which is Hagar.

Brother, Hagar points out what the "fault with the people" in the passage below was: the human solution to obeying God's law. Hagar, was Sarah's human solution to God's promise of a son when she was too old to have a son. Israel tried to obey, through human laws added to God's law, instead of putting forth the effort to obey God's laws armed with the cycle of forgiveness of the temple, through animal sacrifices that gives victory over sin.

Hebrews 8:7-9 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant[agreement], no place would have been sought for another. But God found FAULT WITH THE PEOPLE and said: “The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.

The "fault with the people" is how they tried to obey God's law by finding a human solution like "Hagar" to obey God's law. The human solution was adding their own laws instead of putting forth the effort armed with God's cycle of forgiveness that actually changes our character instead of their own human laws that enslaved people because they do not help remove sins like the laws of God. Humans are "blind" guides to add laws to Judaism, making their converts "into twice the child of hell you yourselves are". God can add to His own laws because He is not a blind guide like humans are. Judaism does not enter the kingdom of heaven, nor will they allow others to enter, due to their own human laws. Their human laws enslave people instead of freeing them from sin because they are "blind" guides.

“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces. You won’t go in yourselves, and you don’t let others enter either. “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn that person into twice the child of hell you yourselves are! “Blind guides! What sorrow awaits you! For you say that it means nothing to swear ‘by God’s Temple,’ but that it is binding to swear ‘by the gold in the Temple.’ Blind fools! Which is more important—the gold or the Temple that makes the gold sacred? And you say that to swear ‘by the altar’ is not binding, but to swear ‘by the gifts on the altar’ is binding. How blind! For which is more important—the gift on the altar or the altar that makes the gift sacred? When you swear ‘by the altar,’ you are swearing by it and by everything on it. And when you swear ‘by the Temple,’ you are swearing by it and by God, who lives in it. And when you swear ‘by heaven,’ you are swearing by the throne of God and by God, who sits on the throne. (Matthew 23:13-22 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Icyspark]

I likewise believe that temptation is not sin. However, I believe your position doesn't embrace the actual position of 1 Corinthians 10:13.

Jesus is the way out in that He PROVIDES "a way out." The provision to avoid the temptation and ultimately the sin is left for us to embrace or deny. Satan cannot compel us to sin and neither does Jesus compel us to remain faithful.

Could you provide some scripture to prove your point?

Hi Bob S,

You request that I "provide some scripture to prove [my] point," but if you merely read my post you'd see that I did indeed provide the biblical support for my position.

1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it. ​

In other words, you and I are not irresistibly compelled to sin. God says that when temptation comes behind door #1 that "He will also provide a way out" behind door #2.

1 John 2:1
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.​

However, for those times when we do sin we have an Advocate with the Father, Who, when "we confess our sins He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

So are you abiding by this command? Are you confessing your sins? Or is this another one of the texts which has no meaning in a postmodern mindset?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Icyspark]

I will never forget it. It was on another forum where we debated the same issues we are debating today. The forum is no longer available. Josh8:30 Then Joshua built on Mount Ebal an altar to the Lord, the God of Israel, 31 as Moses the servant of the Lord had commanded the Israelites. He built it according to what is written in the Book of the Law of Moses—an altar of uncut stones, on which no iron tool had been used. On it they offered to the Lord burnt offerings and sacrificed fellowship offerings. 32 There, in the presence of the Israelites, Joshua wrote on stones a copy of the law of Moses. 33 All the Israelites, with their elders, officials and judges, were standing on both sides of the ark of the covenant of the Lord, facing the Levitical priests who carried it. Both the foreigners living among them and the native-born were there. Half of the people stood in front of Mount Gerizim and half of them in front of Mount Ebal, as Moses the servant of the Lord had formerly commanded when he gave instructions to bless the people of Israel. That was your answer to 2Cor3:7

Sorry Bob S, but I would not make such an obvious error (i.e. that I "denied verse 7 meant the ten commandments"). I think you either have me confused with someone else or you're conflating another conversation I had with you about another passage of Scripture and are inserting this passage in place of the one we actually discussed. But feel free to supply an actual quote from me to substantiate your accusation.

God bless!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[BABerean2]

Reading the above passage about the new covenant please answer this one question: What was wrong with the old covenant/agreement? Here's a hint. The answer is in verse 9.

Are you saying you are now keeping the ten commandments perfectly, as Christ did?


.

 

[BABerean2]

There is no scripture that says Jesus is the Sabbath, God said the Sabbath is the seventh day in very plain language. Exodus 20:10 Jesus is not a "Shadow" either. He is our Redeemer and Savior.

I never said Jesus is a "shadow". The text of Colossians 2:16-17 says the sabbaths were a shadow of Christ. The text below says Christ is the body.

We do not worship His shadow. We worship Him.


Col 2:16 Let no one, then, judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or of a new moon, or of sabbaths,
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of the coming things, and the body is of the Christ; (YLT)


The New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13.

We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24.

.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I never said Jesus is a "shadow". The text of Colossians 2:16-17 says the sabbaths were a shadow of Christ. The text below says Christ is the body.

We do not worship His shadow. We worship Him.


Col 2:16 Let no one, then, judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or of a new moon, or of sabbaths,
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of the coming things, and the body is of the Christ; (YLT)


The New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13.

We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24.

.

Absolutely we worship Him and we show our allegiance through worship when we obey His commandments.

Col 2:14-17 was previously addressed and is not referring to any of the commandments of God. Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian [moved thread]

Which is why the Sabbath is still a commandment after Jesus died. Luke 23:56 and Jesus told His disciples long after He would be ascended back to heaven that the Sabbath would still be kept Matthew 24:20 why the disciples who were commissioned by Jesus to observe everything Jesus commanded them Matthew 28:20 still observed the Sabbath decades after Jesus rose. Acts of the Apostles 13:42, Acts of the Apostles 13:44, Acts of the Apostles 16:13, Acts of the Apostles 17:2, Acts of the Apostles 18:4 and the Sabbath continues on as the Lord's chosen day of worship for all eternity Isaiah 66:23 just like God told us. Exodus 31:16

As you can clearly see from the scriptures Colossian 2:14-16 is not referring to the seventh day Sabbath. We should always seek God's Truth in His Word. Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. John 17:17

Take care.

 

[Leaf473]

Brother, Hagar points out what the "fault with the people" in the passage below was: the human solution to obeying God's law.

Brother, yes! And I was also struck that she seems to represent the Sinai Covenant. And the words of the Sinai Covenant are the ten commandments.
Exodus 31 When he finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, he gave Moses the two tablets of the covenant, stone tablets, written with God’s finger.

 

[guevaraj]

Brother, yes! And I was also struck that she seems to represent the Sinai Covenant. And the words of the Sinai Covenant are the ten commandments.
Exodus 31 When he finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, he gave Moses the two tablets of the covenant, stone tablets, written with God’s finger.

Brother, making the comparison with Hagar, Sarah is God's Sanai covenant broken through Hagar, Hagar as the human solution to obey God's will, to give Abraham a son when Sarah was too old to give her husband a son. Israel broke the covenant at Sanai by adding their human laws to help them obey God's will. Humans are "blind" guides to add laws to Judaism, making their converts "into twice the child of hell you yourselves are". God can add to His own laws because He is not a blind guide like humans are. Judaism does not enter the kingdom of heaven, nor will they allow others to enter, due to their own human laws. Their human laws enslave people instead of freeing them from sin because they are "blind" guides.

“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces. You won’t go in yourselves, and you don’t let others enter either. “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn that person into twice the child of hell you yourselves are! “Blind guides! What sorrow awaits you! For you say that it means nothing to swear ‘by God’s Temple,’ but that it is binding to swear ‘by the gold in the Temple.’ Blind fools! Which is more important—the gold or the Temple that makes the gold sacred? And you say that to swear ‘by the altar’ is not binding, but to swear ‘by the gifts on the altar’ is binding. How blind! For which is more important—the gift on the altar or the altar that makes the gift sacred? When you swear ‘by the altar,’ you are swearing by it and by everything on it. And when you swear ‘by the Temple,’ you are swearing by it and by God, who lives in it. And when you swear ‘by heaven,’ you are swearing by the throne of God and by God, who sits on the throne. (Matthew 23:13-22 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Icyspark]

Reading the above passage about the new covenant please answer this one question: What was wrong with the old covenant/agreement? Here's a hint. The answer is in verse 9.

Are you saying you are now keeping the ten commandments perfectly, as Christ did?

Hi BABerean2,

Please explain to me how what I said made you think to ask this question. Thanks!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Leaf473]

Brother, making the comparison with Hagar, Sarah is God's Sanai covenant broken through Hagar, Hagar as the human solution to obey God's will, to give Abraham a son when Sarah was too old to give her husband a son. Israel broke the covenant at Sanai by adding their human laws to help them obey God's will. Humans are "blind" guides to add laws to Judaism, making their converts "into twice the child of hell you yourselves are". God can add to His own laws because He is not a blind guide like humans are. Judaism does not enter the kingdom of heaven, nor will they allow others to enter, due to their own human laws. Their human laws enslave people instead of freeing them from sin because they are "blind" guides.

“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces. You won’t go in yourselves, and you don’t let others enter either. “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn that person into twice the child of hell you yourselves are! “Blind guides! What sorrow awaits you! For you say that it means nothing to swear ‘by God’s Temple,’ but that it is binding to swear ‘by the gold in the Temple.’ Blind fools! Which is more important—the gold or the Temple that makes the gold sacred? And you say that to swear ‘by the altar’ is not binding, but to swear ‘by the gifts on the altar’ is binding. How blind! For which is more important—the gift on the altar or the altar that makes the gift sacred? When you swear ‘by the altar,’ you are swearing by it and by everything on it. And when you swear ‘by the Temple,’ you are swearing by it and by God, who lives in it. And when you swear ‘by heaven,’ you are swearing by the throne of God and by God, who sits on the throne. (Matthew 23:13-22 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Brother, I think Hagar represents Mount Sinai, and the Covenant made there. That Covenant bears children to bondage.
Galatians 4 These things contain an allegory, for these are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children to bondage, which is Hagar.

United in the Spirit in the bonds of peace.

 

[guevaraj]

Brother, I think Hagar represents Mount Sinai, and the Covenant made there. That Covenant bears children to bondage. Galatians 4 These things contain an allegory, for these are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children to bondage, which is Hagar. United in the Spirit in the bonds of peace.

Brother, there was no promise made to Hagar, there was a promise made to Abraham of a son, and God's promise was through His wife Sarah, not her servant Hagar. Can you see how Hagar is the human solution to God's fulfillment of His promise to Abraham, to give him a son? In the following passage, "law" refers to all of the laws of Judaism, including human laws added to God's law. Hagar represents those human laws.

Tell me, you who want to live under the law, do you know what the law actually says? The Scriptures say that Abraham had two sons, one from his slave wife and one from his freeborn wife. The son of the slave wife was born in a human attempt to bring about the fulfillment of God’s promise. But the son of the freeborn wife was born as God’s own fulfillment of his promise. These two women serve as an illustration of God’s two covenants. The first woman, Hagar, represents Mount Sinai where people received the law that enslaved them. (Galatians 4:21-24 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Leaf473]

Brother, there was no promise made to Hagar, there was a promise made to Abraham of a son, and God's promise was through His wife Sarah, not her servant Hagar. Can you see how Hagar is the human solution to God's fulfillment of His promise to Abraham, to give him a son? In the following passage, "law" refers to all of the laws of Judaism, including human laws added to God's law. Hagar represents those human laws.

Tell me, you who want to live under the law, do you know what the law actually says? The Scriptures say that Abraham had two sons, one from his slave wife and one from his freeborn wife. The son of the slave wife was born in a human attempt to bring about the fulfillment of God’s promise. But the son of the freeborn wife was born as God’s own fulfillment of his promise. These two women serve as an illustration of God’s two covenants. The first woman, Hagar, represents Mount Sinai where people received the law that enslaved them. (Galatians 4:21-24 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Brother, yes, I can see that. It also sounds like the Sinai Covenant bears children to bondage. And then looking at Exodus 31, it looks like the Sinai Covenant was written on stone tablets by God's finger.

 

[guevaraj]

Brother, yes, I can see that. It also sounds like the Sinai Covenant bears children to bondage. And then looking at Exodus 31, it looks like the Sinai Covenant was written on stone tablets by God's finger.

Brother, what leads to slavery is not the commandments written in stone but the additional human laws in Judaism by "blind" guides. Humans are "blind" guides to add laws to Judaism, making their converts "into twice the child of hell you yourselves are". God can add to His own laws because He is not a blind guide like humans are. Judaism does not enter the kingdom of heaven, nor will they allow others to enter, due to their own human laws. Their human laws enslave people instead of freeing them from sin because they are "blind" guides.

“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces. You won’t go in yourselves, and you don’t let others enter either. “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn that person into twice the child of hell you yourselves are! “Blind guides! What sorrow awaits you! For you say that it means nothing to swear ‘by God’s Temple,’ but that it is binding to swear ‘by the gold in the Temple.’ Blind fools! Which is more important—the gold or the Temple that makes the gold sacred? And you say that to swear ‘by the altar’ is not binding, but to swear ‘by the gifts on the altar’ is binding. How blind! For which is more important—the gift on the altar or the altar that makes the gift sacred? When you swear ‘by the altar,’ you are swearing by it and by everything on it. And when you swear ‘by the Temple,’ you are swearing by it and by God, who lives in it. And when you swear ‘by heaven,’ you are swearing by the throne of God and by God, who sits on the throne. (Matthew 23:13-22 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Leaf473]

Brother, what leads to slavery is not the commandments written in stone but the additional human laws in Judaism by "blind" guides. Humans are "blind" guides to add laws to Judaism, making their converts "into twice the child of hell you yourselves are". God can add to His own laws because He is not a blind guide like humans are. Judaism does not enter the kingdom of heaven, nor will they allow others to enter, due to their own human laws. Their human laws enslave people instead of freeing them from sin because they are "blind" guides.

“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces. You won’t go in yourselves, and you don’t let others enter either. “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn that person into twice the child of hell you yourselves are! “Blind guides! What sorrow awaits you! For you say that it means nothing to swear ‘by God’s Temple,’ but that it is binding to swear ‘by the gold in the Temple.’ Blind fools! Which is more important—the gold or the Temple that makes the gold sacred? And you say that to swear ‘by the altar’ is not binding, but to swear ‘by the gifts on the altar’ is binding. How blind! For which is more important—the gift on the altar or the altar that makes the gift sacred? When you swear ‘by the altar,’ you are swearing by it and by everything on it. And when you swear ‘by the Temple,’ you are swearing by it and by God, who lives in it. And when you swear ‘by heaven,’ you are swearing by the throne of God and by God, who sits on the throne. (Matthew 23:13-22 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Brother, the two tablets of stone did not contain human laws.

Exodus 31
When he finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, he gave Moses the two tablets of the covenant, stone tablets, written with God’s finger.

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus and the bond of peace.

 

[Bob S]

Hi Bob S,

Here's how the Summit Ministries website describes postmodernism:

"Pre-modern era was one in which religion was the source of truth and reality. God’s existence and revelation were givens in the culture. In the modern era, science became the source for truth and reality. During this period, religion and morality were arbitrarily demoted to the subjective realm. In the present, postmodern era, there is no single defining source for truth and reality beyond the individual. Postmodernism simply radicalized relativism and individualism and then applied them to all spheres of knowledge — even science.

"In a postmodern world, truth and reality are understood to be individually shaped by personal history, social class, gender, culture, and religion. These factors, we are told, combine to shape the narratives and meanings of our lives. In this sense they are culturally embedded, localized social constructions without any universal application. Postmoderns are suspicious of people who make universal truth claims. Such claims of universal meaning are viewed as imperialistic efforts to marginalize and oppress the rights of others. The most important value of postmodernity is the inadmissibility of all totalizing ways of viewing any dimension of life. Postmodernity, as a worldview, refuses to allow any single defining source for truth and reality. The new emphasis is on difference, plurality and selective forms of tolerance.

"Postmodern thinking is full of absurdities and inconsistencies. It is, for example, the worldview that says no worldview exists. It is an anti-theory that uses theoretical tools to neutralize all theories. It demands an imposed uniformity in an effort to resist uniformity. It employs propositional statements to negate truth based on propositional statements."​

Whether you understand it or not, that's what I believe you're doing. Postmoderns read into the Bible
their own "truths" regardless of what the Bible actually says. Postmoderns wouldn't have any trouble with the idea of adding or subtracting from the Bible to make it say whatever they desire. Voila!

The fact is we "post moderns" do read the Bible. Most of those of past era didn't even possess a Bible and even if they did, most didn't know how to read. We do not allow some self-made prophet with a third-grade education to sway what the scripture really is telling us.

Since you like examples, here's one. Jesus says, "The Sabbath was made for human beings."

I don't deny Jesus' statement. You are the one adding the word ALL.

Postmodern thinkers reject the words of Jesus and instead insert their own belief and reword Jesus's clear statement and make it say, "The Sabbath was made for the JEWS." Isn't that your contention?

No, it is not my contention, but I will have to say that the Sabbath was never ever given to any other nation except Israel.

Aren't you always saying that the Sabbath is only for the Jews? How is it then that you allow yourself to edit the words of Jesus?

No, I said it was for the Jews. Was is past tense. The Sabbath ended along with the remainder of the laws of the old covenant. The new covenant has no such ritual commands and the new covenant includes the Jews. The Sabbath command which was one of the 10 commandments that Paul wrote about in 2nd Corinthians 3 versus 6 through 11 was done away, (KJV). So, what was once given to man temporarily has past.
Just so we're clear that this is exactly what you're doing here's a quote from you:

Jesus, as the Creator of the heavens and the Earth, made the Sabbath on the seventh day of creation. There weren't any Jews then and as Jesus said above, He made the Sabbath for "human beings." So unless one embraces a postmodern belief system in which truth is relative, how do you get to insert your own beliefs into something where Jesus is explicit? Is Jesus the final arbiter of truth or are you?

Sorry spark, it does not tell us that God made the Sabbath on the seventh-day of creation. First of all there were only six days of creation, so your 19th century want to be prophet has taught you something that is not true. Secondly, the Genesis account says nothing about the Sabbath, it tells God rested from His work. It says nothing about being a perpetual weekly event. All anyone knows is that God rested one day. JN5:16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

I pray this helps.

Sorry spark, nothing you wrote would help me or anyone else. I, for one, will continue to reap my beliefs from scripture.

 

[Icyspark]

The fact is we "post moderns" do read the Bible. Most of those of past era didn't even possess a Bible and even if they did, most didn't know how to read. We do not allow some self-made prophet with a third-grade education to sway what the scripture really is telling us.

Hi Bob S,

Postmoderns maybe read the Bible, but that doesn't do anything other than give them an opportunity to insert their own ideas into the divine text. Adding and subtracting from the Bible to suit a postmodern belief system is exactly the problem. Attempting to shift your blame onto "some self-made prophet" isn't helping solve the biblical chasm of a postmodern belief system.

Let's also note that I don't need to appeal to the writings of Ellen White because all of my positions are firmly rooted in what the Bible plainly teaches.

I don't deny Jesus' statement. You are the one adding the word ALL.

I'm not seeing that I said "ALL" anywhere in this context. This appears to be your attempt to apply your use of addition to my writings now. Let's see the evidence for this accusation.

No, it is not my contention, but I will have to say that the Sabbath was never ever given to any other nation except Israel.

Jesus said, "The Sabbath was made for human beings." That is an inclusive statement. Your position attempts to redact Jesus's words to make it suit a predetermined belief system. Tell me again how many times you've asserted that "The Sabbath is only for the Jews"? If Jesus says it was for human beings, are you not a human being? How is it you get to deny the words of Jesus? Are you "some self-made prophet with a third-grade education"? It certainly sounds like you're embracing for yourself those things which you seem to decry.

Jesus said:

Luke 9:26
Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.​

Have you ever taken a moment to ponder why the Sabbath was made for human beings? Have you ever pondered why God said to "call the Sabbath a delight"? If the Sabbath was made for us does it not make sense that God made it for our benefit and that benefit makes it a "delight" for "human beings"?

No, I said it was for the Jews. Was is past tense. The Sabbath ended along with the remainder of the laws of the old covenant. The new covenant has no such ritual commands and the new covenant includes the Jews. The Sabbath command which was one of the 10 commandments that Paul wrote about in 2nd Corinthians 3 versus 6 through 11 was done away, (KJV). So, what was once given to man temporarily has past.

Annnnnd, here we are again. This is a big problem for your ability to embrace the unit of Ten Commandments and contributes to your desire to add and subtract from Scripture. The old covenant is an agreement. The agreement is not what was at fault. "God found fault with THE PEOPLE," not with His perfect law.

Here's how Easton's Bible Dictionary defines a covenant:

Covenant
a contract or agreement between two parties. In the Old Testament the Hebrew word _berith_ is always thus translated. _Berith_ is derived from a root which means "to cut," and hence a covenant is a "cutting," with reference to the cutting or dividing of animals into two parts, and the contracting parties passing between them, in making a covenant (Gen. 15; Jer. 34:18, 19).

This word is used (1) of a covenant or compact between man and man (Gen. 21:32), or between tribes or nations (1 Sam. 11:1; Josh. 9:6, 15). In entering into a convenant, Jehovah was solemnly called on to witness the transaction (Gen. 31:50), and hence it was called a "covenant of the Lord" (1 Sam. 20:8). The marriage compact is called "the covenant of God" (Prov. 2:17), because the marriage was made in God's name. Wicked men are spoken of as acting as if they had made a "covenant with death" not to destroy them, or with hell not to devour them (Isa. 28:15, 18).​

So for you to throw out the baby (Ten Commandments) with the old covenant bathwater is untenable.

Hebrews 8:8-9
But God found fault with the people ... because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord​

God didn't find fault with His perfect law. What did He find fault with? "The PEOPLE"
Why did God find fault with the PEOPLE? "Because they did not remain faithful to my covenant" (i.e. "contract or agreement").

Stop with the redacting and read the Bible in its normative sense. I think if you can get over this one hurdle that much of your contentions will just fade away.

Just so we're clear that this is exactly what you're doing here's a quote from you:

Sorry spark, it does not tell us that God made the Sabbath on the seventh-day of creation. First of all there were only six days of creation, so your 19th century want to be prophet has taught you something that is not true. Secondly, the Genesis account says nothing about the Sabbath, it tells God rested from His work. It says nothing about being a perpetual weekly event. All anyone knows is that God rested one day. JN5:16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

So when Jesus says, "The Sabbath was MADE ..." you get to reject this affirmation and conclude that it wasn't made? Um, sorry, no.

While the word "Sabbath" is not in the creation account, all the elements that comprise the Sabbath are there. Your position is that if you see something that looks EXACTLY like a mousetrap but doesn't have the word "mousetrap" emblazoned on the object that it's not a mousetrap. Does that even make sense?

The work Jesus was doing in John 5 wasn't the work of carpentry. He was doing the work of salvation and even the Jewish leaders couldn't condemn Him for the work He was doing. That's part of the reason why they appealed to false witnesses in order to condemn Him. If Jesus broke the law He was born under then he was a sinner and the Jewish leaders were compelled to not only reject him as the Messiah but to put him to death.

Sorry spark, nothing you wrote would help me or anyone else. I, for one, will continue to reap my beliefs from scripture.

From what icy your beliefs come from a much edited version of the Scriptures. I call this idea "thinspiration."

Mark 2:27
The Sabbath was made for the good of human beings [the Jews]; they were not made for the Sabbath.​

If you could stop editing the Scriptures, that'd be great!

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Icyspark]

1. Is it wrong or right to follow the example of Jesus (reason #3)?

No wonder no one has answered such flawed questions. Jesus wore a robe presumably with tassels on four corners. He would not have cut His sideburns. He faithfully would have kept all of the Holy days God gave to Israel. He spent three years healing, debating and many other things not recorded. He didn't own a home. He didn't marry and raise a family. He fasted for forty days and ended His life for all humanity. Those are a few examples and I ask you if it is right and are you setting an example?

Hi Bob S,

So here again we see you elevating your opinion above what the Bible says:

1 Peter 2:21
To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. “He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.”​

So when Peter says that Christ left an example for you to follow in the steps of Jesus, you look for as many possible ways to reject the message and the implications it has for you. So for you the example Jesus left for you to follow has zero meaning.

Perhaps no one addressed this question because no one was brazen enough to cross out the words of Scripture?

2. Is it wrong or right for a Christian to follow the example of the disciples (reason #4)?

Flawed question number 2. Peter denied Jesus 3 times, cut the ear off of someone.
Thomas doubted Jesus and Judas betrayed Jesus. All that was wrong, so I would answer they were wrong examples. The disciples loved Jesus, that was right and is a good example.

I find it odd that you would look to the fallen character traits of the disciples in order for you to find solace in not having to follow their righteous aspects. This is just more redacting and editing of the Scriptures and you know that you appeal to their examples in other areas in attempts at disparaging the Sabbath. For example (get it?), for those who wish to find support for their Sunday observance they appeal to the disciples breaking bread on the first day of the weak [sic]. But to look at their example in observing the Sabbath after Jesus died is supposedly a problem?

Luke 23:56
Then they went home and prepared spices and perfumes. But they rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment.​

From the opening post I wrote the following in relation to the above text:

Because Jesus never intended to put an end to the regular seven day cycle He set in motion for humanity's (anthropos) benefit and "delight," Jesus never informed them that it was no longer necessary to observe the Sabbath after His death. This is confirmed by the fact that His closest followers—those who went out of their way to see to His burial preparations—still "rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment." If Jesus did not intend for the Sabbath to be included in His new covenant then He needed to add this to His will before He died. After the death of the Testator nothing can be added or subtracted from that person's will (see Hebrews 9:16-17).​

3. Is it wrong or right to follow the example of the apostle Paul (reason #5)?

Of course you are using the questions to get us to say it is right so that you can then tell us that all of those kept the Sabbath. I assume they all kept the Sabbath while it was their law. Pau, on the other hand, went into the Synagogue, but for the reason to spread the Good News. Scripture never reveals that he did it to honor the now defunct old covenant law.

It was Paul's regular habit to observe the Sabbath (Note that the seventh day of the week maintains it venerated title and Sunday is never given a title. Also notice that the seventh day's venerated title is never tied to the Jews, as in "the Sabbath of the Jews" like you would have us believe.). In 1 Corinthians 11:1 Paul says to "Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ." Your position appears to redact that entire verse. Paul's example can't be followed. Jesus's example can't be followed.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[guevaraj]

Brother, the two tablets of stone did not contain human laws.

Brother, yes! The free woman, Sarah, is our mother. God fulfills his own promises to free us from sin with the commandments written in stone and the cycle of forgiveness that gives us victory over sin and our mother is not the slave woman Hagar, with added human laws to Judaism that does not free us from sin but enslaves us to ineffective human laws. No human laws found in Judaism are placed on our hearts by the Holy Spirit, only God's laws written in the word of God.

These two women serve as an illustration of God’s two covenants. The first woman, Hagar, represents Mount Sinai where people received the law that enslaved them. And now Jerusalem is just like Mount Sinai in Arabia, because she and her children live in slavery to the law. But the other woman, Sarah, represents the heavenly Jerusalem. She is the free woman, and she is our mother. (Galatians 4:24-26 NLT)​

Exodus 31 When he finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, he gave Moses the two tablets of the covenant, stone tablets, written with God’s finger.

The commandments are the instructions for the descendants of the free woman, the Holy Spirit does not place in our hearts the slave woman' human laws in Judaism.

“But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel after those days,” says the LORD. “I will put my instructions deep within them, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34And they will not need to teach their neighbors, nor will they need to teach their relatives, saying, ‘You should know the LORD.’ For everyone, from the least to the greatest, will know me already,” says the LORD. “And I will forgive their wickedness, and I will never again remember their sins.” (Jeremiah 31:33-34 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge