What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Clare73]

No faith no salvation , no birth , no eternal life , no kingdom of God, Christ , Heaven etc …

No birth, no faith, no salvation, no justification, no adoption.

Are you claiming one can be saved apart from faith ?

Are you?

Do you deny the 5 solas ?

Not if they are Biblical.

What are they, and what do they mean?

next

???

Is there any point in this?

.

 

[zoidar]

Non-responsive. . .

I'm no Greek scholar, but I believe" seeing" can be changed with "experience"

Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see (experience) the kingdom of God (life).”
— John 3:3

That is what it means.

 

[Clare73]

I'm no Greek scholar, but I believe" seeing" can be changed with "experience"

Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see (experience) the kingdom of God (life).”
— John 3:3

Not with human experience, according to 1 Corinthians 2:14 and Romans 8:7-8, in addition to
John 3:3-8.

.

 

[zoidar]

Not with human experience, according to 1 Corinthians 2:14 and Romans 8:7-8, in addition to
John 3:3-8.

Of course not! You repent and receive the Holy Spirit and you see everything anew, through the Holy Spirit residing in you. You are born again.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Of course not! You repent and receive the Holy Spirit and you see everything anew, through the Holy Spirit residing in you. You are born again.

Yes the new birth / Holy Spirit always follows faith and repentance. He has it backwards putting the cart before the horse

Summary of The Biblical order and regeneration is way down in the middle , not first as he believes which is unbiblical and a false doctrine taught by Calvin

1- the preaching of the gospel- Rom 10
2- the hearing of the gospel- Rom 10
3- belief in the gospel- John 1:12
4- receiving the gospel- John 1:12
5- repentance Luke 5:32
6- the new birth that results in #7
7- salvation, eternal life- John 1:13
8- Justification- Rom 8:30
9- Sanctification- Rom 8
10- Glorification Rom 8:30

 

[RickReads]

I listed several of them in the OP. Another reason is how I was being treated by Calvinists I had known for years that were my “ best friends “ while I was on their team but as soon as I started questioning their beliefs the personal attacked never stopped . The forum I had been a supporter of for 20 years as a Calvinist and was not banned ever. Now over the last 6 months bans me every time I’m reinstated the same day just for challenging them . And I’m a much nicer/ kinder poster now lol . I’m not a quitter so until they make it permanently I will continue . I know three other former Calvinists that have watched this happen and because of it have also left Calvinism and it’s aberrant doctrines .

I think exchanges like the ones seen at this end of the CF pond are good for testing and clarifying opinions about the gospel. I`ve learned more things than I ever expected to from the cyberspace doctrine battles I engaged in years ago.

However, Jesus said two or more must gather and the real world churches are the place to spend your spiritual currency.

Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

I have never believed our spirituality amplifies in cyberspace the way it does in real-life gathering together. We lose something very important here.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I think exchanges like the ones seen at this end of the CF pond are good for testing and clarifying opinions about the gospel. I`ve learned more things than I ever expected to from the cyberspace doctrine battles I engaged in years ago.

However, Jesus said two or more must gather and the real world churches are the place to spend your spiritual currency.

Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

I have never believed our spirituality amplifies in cyberspace the way it does in real-life gathering together. We lose something very important here.

Ditto

 

[RickReads]

Ditto

Be careful. I am one of those dreaded Charismatics

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Be careful. I am one of those dreaded Charismatics

As long as it’s not the Toronto blessing type

 

[RickReads]

As long as it’s not the Toronto blessing type

Never heard of it. I don't watch TV.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Never heard of it. I don't watch TV.

Here is a YouTube clip

 

[RickReads]

Here is a YouTube clip

Just what I always wanted. Thx

 

[misput]

And does that not put you in disagreement with 1 Corinthians 2:14, Romans 8:7-8 and John 3:3-8?
Being spiritually dead means no Holy Spirit.
It means you can't even know or get acquainted with the kingdom of God (John 3:3).

How can I say this politely; i.e, it's not my job to defend God and make him look good.
"I'd sooner defend a lion."
My job is to present his truth revealed in his word. . .his image is his job.

The Holy Spirit is another term for God and all men have some degree of an inborn sense of God. The root of our disagreement is you have man completely void of any connection to God from conception. This simply is not true. Eph. 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Ac 17:25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;
26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'
29 "Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.
30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,

 

[Clare73]

The Holy Spirit is another term for God and all men have some degree of an inborn sense of God. The root of our disagreement is
you have man completely void of any connection to God from conception.

That would be Scripture, not me:

Romans 5:18--all are born condemned,
John 3:18--condemned already,
John 3:36--wrath of God remains on him.
Ephesians 2:3--by nature, objects of wrath

This simply is not true. Eph. 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Ac 17:25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;
26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'
29 "Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.
30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,

 

[Mark Quayle]

I get it perfectly which is why I reject divine determinism, tulip and the calvinist view of Sovereignty. And I will bet I've taught the doctrines of grace longer than you have.

How long have you been a calvinist ?

How long have you taught tulip ?

Really? This is your measure?

Reject it then. Adieu.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Mark Quayle said: ↑
it is self-contradictory to say that it is possible to create or even give uncaused things.

The proof that God can give us something uncaused lays in what I said, that God can give us his Spirit which is uncaused. From there I don't see the problem with God infusing an eternal soul with uncaused free will.

Are you saying that Freewill IS the Spirit of God? Or exactly what, are you saying, is uncaused? Giving us the Spirit of God causes many huge obvious things; and giving us the Spirit of God is causing it so to be, that the Spirit of God dwells within us.

Can you even describe how a soul that is eternal can have been created? If God can create a soul that is eternal, I see no problem God creating a soul with free will.

Both are caused by God, thus contradicting the use many have of " 'uncaused' free will".

God can make anything eternal he pleases to, that is, with no end, but if he creates something, it has a beginning. We are eternal only in that we will live forever as part of the Body of Christ, one with God. God caused that by creating us.

And, if we are eternal, our eternal existence is CAUSED to be so, and if he was to give us free will it would be CAUSED to be so. Thus not uncaused.



Mark Quayle said: ↑
The gift or the creating is in itself causing.

The giving has a cause, the gift itself doesn't have a cause. Don't mix that up. God can infuse a "capacity" He has that is uncaused to man if He likes. I have no problem with that.

Let me try this on. You admit that if we have a gift God gives us, he caused us to have the gift? But if he gave us the Holy Spirit, that gift is not caused, though it be caused that we have it. Thus, you reason, anything God gives us is the same as the Holy Spirit, and thus not caused? Is the life and breath we have not caused?

With your reasoning, how can you even say God has free will? His will is based on His character right? Since He hasn't created His character, I don't see how God can have free will from your understanding.

No. His will is based on himself. God is not a sum of his parts. One part does not cause another.

But even from your construction there, it seems you prove God's free will and not ours! I'm sorry, but I don't see what you posit there as deriving from what I have said.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The problem is not with Romans 9, the problem is with what place you give to such places in the context of 1000 pages of the Bible. Its out of balance.

What we speak of from Romans 9 is also restated many times elsewhere and is in harmony with all other Scripture. Romans 9 is only the easiest and most plain/obvious to show it from. But, do you deny what it says?

I did not claim anything about "total depravity". I was reacting to the poetic verse you used outside of its context in too literal way.

The poetic verse you reacted to, is one of many describing total depravity. Calvinism isn't "making people to be all-evil monsters in every moment, deserving never ending torture for something they cannot change". That's your strawman presentation of what they do.

And, by the way, they do not go to perdition because they cannot change their ways, but because they will not believe.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Maybe he did get it, just found it to be untrue?

He might have gotten the brand of Calvinism his church taught, but he didn't get the Doctrines of Grace, because he would not have abandoned them. He has not presented them accurately, which has me wondering where he learned them. He keeps saying he knows them, but he keeps misrepresenting them.

 

[RickReads]

He might have gotten the brand of Calvinism his church taught, but he didn't get the Doctrines of Grace, because he would not have abandoned them. He has not presented them accurately, which has me wondering where he learned them. He keeps saying he knows them, but he keeps misrepresenting them.

Calvinism has been accurately presented including a number of posts you failed to respond to.

TULIP: 5-Point Calvinism Explained

 

[Mark Quayle]

Yes, they are fixed in the state of their judgment at the outcome of their trial, some fixed in righteousness, and others fixed in unrighteousness, as we all will be fixed in the state of judgment from judgment day.

Well, the NT reveals that God chooses to show forth his glory through the glorification of his Son, who with his own life shall purchase from condemned mankind (Romans 5:18) a remnant to be God's own personal inheritance (Psalms 33:12; Ephesians 1:18) and treasured possession (Exodus 19:5; Deuteronomy 7:6, Deuteronomy 26:18; Malachi 3:17); i.e., the church, which is his body, the fullness of him (Ephesians 1:22-23), God counting himself incomplete (!) without his inheritance and treasure.
They would be the spirits of the deceased saints, both OT and NT.

Are not the angels complete and fixed in their growth, just as we will be at the resurrection in our glorified, sinless, perfect bodies of eternity?

And at this point, would not the fulfillment of the plan concerning them be their ministry and care of the saints?

One thing is plain. We don't know much but we know plenty. We are without excuse and I am so glad this depends on God, because who is equal to this???