k1 chart - open for discussion

[Douggg]

He has already decided, but you and most Christians don't believe it.
Isaiah 65:9 My chosen people will inherit the holy Land..... Who are Christians, John 15:14-16, 1 Peter 2:9

Your interpretation makes the world (except the land of Israel) void of any Christians before the 7 years begin. That's a faulty interpretation, keras.

Christians inherit eternal life. And the Kingdom of God. Which covers the entire world, not just the kingdom of Israel.

The Kingdom of God is the Kingdom of Heaven that Jesus was given in Daniel 7, that in the Lord's prayer, we are taught to pray - Our Father who are in heaven, may Your Kingdom come ...

Jesus when returns brings the Kingdom of Heaven (not of this world) to earth, to be the Kingdom of God on earth.

Since we inherit also the Kingdom of Heaven, heaven is also where we shall have access to in our glorified eternal bodies.

Daniel 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.


Daniei 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

 

[Timtofly]

I think that Ezekiel 38-39 is most misinterpreted scripture in the whole Bible. The "unwalled", "at rest", "dwelling safely" and "without bars and gates" is Millennium talk if I ever heard it. To say it is present day Israel is just silly talk. The Gog/Magog war is a Millennium war. And we have two accounts of it - one in Revelation and the other in Ezekiel - two visions of the same war. I find that God repeats prophecy twice so that it's confirmed by two witnesses. The real question is why Israel is being lead to believe that Gog/Magog is about to happen. I think it is what causes them to join forces with the antichrist.

Revelation 20:8-9 is not a war.

"And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints."

War: a state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different groups within a nation or state.

They lost immediately upon arrival. They never fired a shot. There was no exchange of conflict. They literally marched for probably thousands of miles, and then were incinerated. They did not kill any one on the way. They did not recruit any one not willing to join them. They were not all of humanity. It was not a struggle to get to where they were going.

Yes there was a potential for battle. That was a purpose that drove them to expend the energy to get from all points Z to point A.

The conflict at the Second Coming involves Jesus coming down from heaven, lands on the Mt. of Olives, destroys all of Israel's enemies set up the camp of the saints, so after 1,000 years the aforementioned group can attempt a suicidal mission.

 

[keras]

Your interpretation makes the world (except the land of Israel) void of any Christians before the 7 years begin. That's a faulty interpretation, keras.

No it is not.
The world will be under the rule of the 'beast', the Anti-Christ. Any Christians living in the World Govt, are liable to have their heads chopped off. Maybe they will survive by keeping quiet or living in very remote locations, as the main group of Christians will be taken to, Revelation 12:14

Christians inherit eternal life. And the Kingdom of God. Which covers the entire world, not just the kingdom of Israel.

Eternal life is not conferred until after the Millennium, when the Book of Life is opened, Rev 20:11-15
The Millennium Kingdom will cover the entire world.

Since we inherit also the Kingdom of Heaven, heaven is also where we shall have access to in our glorified eternal bodies.

Where do you get such outlandish ideas?
Isaiah 65:20 plainly tells us that people will die during the Millennium.
ONLY at the GWT Judgment are those found worthy, given immortality.

Re; the prospect of our going to live in all of the holy land; Jeremiah 12:14-16 is indisputable, that is of course why you avoid it.
Note; how Jeremiah 13:1-14 prophesies the destruction of Judah.

 

[Douggg]

No it is not.
The world will be under the rule of the 'beast', the Anti-Christ. Any Christians living in the World Govt, are liable to have their heads chopped off. Maybe they will survive by keeping quiet or living in very remote locations, as the main group of Christians will be taken to, Revelation 12:14

But you are having all Christians from around the world move into the decimated land of Israel and nation build "Beulah".

btw, when the executions begin - it is in Judea where it will be started and going on.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

 

[keras]

But you are having all Christians from around the world move into the decimated land of Israel and nation build "Beulah".

You constantly demonstrate your severe lack of Bible Prophecy knowledge.
Ezekiel 36:8-12 Now you: Land of Israel, grow your plants and bear fruit for the homecoming of My people is near. The whole House of Israel will come, very many people and you will be their possession.

Psalms 147:2-3 The Lord gathers the scattered Israelites, He heals their broken spirit and binds their wounds. He rebuilds Jerusalem.

Joel 3:18 When that Day comes the Land will be well watered and productive.

Isaiah 32:15-20 The Spirit from on high will come upon the people, then the Land will become a well watered beautiful garden; a tranquil country, its people living in peace and security.

Romans 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of the present times are not worth comparing with the glory that is going to be revealed to us.

Psalm 37:29 The righteous will possess the Land and will live there forever.

btw, when the executions begin - it is in Judea where it will be started and going on.

When Beulah is conquered by the AC, as per Daniel 7:25, Zechariah 14:1-2 and Revelation 13:5-8, THEN he will show his true colors and commence to persecute Christians. But God will take all those Christians who refused to violate their Covenant with Him, Daniel 11:32, to a place of safety on earth.

 

[Douggg]

Where do you get such outlandish ideas?
Isaiah 65:20 plainly tells us that people will die during the Millennium.
ONLY at the GWT Judgment are those found worthy, given immortality.

keras, where are you going to be standing when this present earth and the works within are destroyed, as Peter informed, 2Peter3:10? Are you going to be here on this earth?

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

 

[Douggg]

When Beulah is conquered by the AC, as per Daniel 7:25, Zechariah 14:1-2 and Revelation 13:5-8, THEN he will show his true colors and commence to persecute Christians. But God will take all those Christians who refused to violate their Covenant with Him, Daniel 11:32, to a place of safety on earth.

Daniel 11:32 is historic, the Macabees fighting against Antiochus IV.

In Zechariah 14:2 is talking about the pioneer Christians?

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

 

[keras]

keras, where are you going to be standing when this present earth and the works within are destroyed, as Peter informed, 2Peter3:10? Are you going to be here on this earth?

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

On earth. We never go to heaven, after the GWT Judgment, God and therefore heaven; come to be with us on earth. Revelation 21:1-7

Note: that 2 Peter 3:7 and verse 10, are different events. Verse 7 refers to the Sixth Seal.

Daniel 11:32 is historic, the Macabees fighting against Antiochus IV.

It bears no relation to that time. What Covenant was violated at that time?

In Zechariah 14:2 is talking about the pioneer Christians?

Yes it is, sadly they, we; will be conquered by the 'beast', as Revelation 13:5-8 confirms.
It will really sort out the true faithful Christians from the vacillating ones, the many referred to in Daniel 9:27, who will have to stay in the holy Land, Rev 12:17, while the ones who refused the 7 year treaty will be kept safe for the 1260 days of Satanic rule. Rev 12:14

 

[Douggg]

On earth. We never go to heaven, after the GWT Judgment, God and therefore heaven; come to be with us on earth. Revelation 21:1-7

Note: that 2 Peter 3:7 and verse 10, are different events. Verse 7 refers to the Sixth Seal.

keras, the earth is not destroyed in the sixth seal event. Or else, on your chart you would not have the nation building of Beulah, Gog/Magog event, the seven years event.

verse 7 and verse 10 are the same destruction of this present earth. This present earth and heaven above it are going to be completely destroyed, nothing left. No-one is going to be here on it. Including you. Everyone is going to be in the third heaven as the Great White Throne judgement event takes place.

Christians taken to heaven in the rapture/resurrection, and Christians raised from the dead in Revelation 20:4-6, will not have to stand before Jesus, in the Great White Throne judgment.

 

[BillCody]

Revelation 20:8-9 is not a war.

"And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints."

War: a state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different groups within a nation or state.

They lost immediately upon arrival. They never fired a shot. There was no exchange of conflict. They literally marched for probably thousands of miles, and then were incinerated. They did not kill any one on the way. They did not recruit any one not willing to join them. They were not all of humanity. It was not a struggle to get to where they were going.

Yes there was a potential for battle. That was a purpose that drove them to expend the energy to get from all points Z to point A.

Revelation 20:8-9
8 and shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up over the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down out of heaven, and devoured them.

God considers it war or He wouldn't had said it.


The conflict at the Second Coming involves Jesus coming down from heaven, lands on the Mt. of Olives, destroys all of Israel's enemies set up the camp of the saints, so after 1,000 years the aforementioned group can attempt a suicidal mission.

 

[keras]

keras, the earth is not destroyed in the sixth seal event.

Only the Middle East region will be virtually devastated and depopulated at the Sixth Seal. The rest of the world will lose our modern infrastructure and millions will die as a result of the cities becoming uninhabitable.

verse 7 and verse 10 are the same destruction of this present earth.

No they are not. Peter doesn't repeat himself, he refers to two different events.

Christians taken to heaven in the rapture/resurrection, and Christians raised from the dead in Revelation 20:4-6, will not have to stand before Jesus, in the Great White Throne judgment.

A Douggish theory, never stated in the Bible.
Revelation 20:11-13 clearly means ALL the dead must stand before God in Judgment.

Please do not mention a 'rapture to heaven' without scriptural proof. Fables and fantasies have no place in a serious discussion of Bible prophecy.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Note: that 2 Peter 3:7 and verse 10, are different events.

No, they are not. There is no basis whatsoever for this claim. In 2 Peter 3:10-12 Peter was adding more detail to what he had already stated would happen in verse 7. In 2 Peter 3:5-7, Peter was comparing the current heavens and earth being reserved for fire directly to how the earth was destroyed by the flood waters in Noah's day. That implies global destruction which is exactly what is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12.

No they are not. Peter doesn't repeat himself, he refers to two different events.

He's not repeating himself in verse 7 and verses 10-12, he's simply giving more detail in verses 10-12 regarding what he had already said in verse 7.

 

[keras]

He's not repeating himself in verse 7 and verses 10-12, he's simply giving more detail in verses 10-12 regarding what he had already said in verse 7.

You are wrong, proved by how 2 Peter 3:7 says the godless will be destroyed.
Verse 10 is also about the Lord's Day of fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, when all will be tried and tested - brought to judgment.

But 2 Peter 3:11-12 refers to the new heavens and earth, to come after the Millennium.

The Earth will Burn: 2 Peter 3:7, Isaiah 66:15-16, Zeph. 3:8, Isaiah 33:10-12

In ancient times, God promised to Noah that He would never again destroy the earth with a flood. Genesis 9:11 But we see in Deuteronomy 32:34-35 & 22, God has kept in His storehouse a judgement of fire prepared and ready for His Day of vengeance. As we are once again ‘as in the days of Noah’, this terrible and devastating Day of fires, storms and earthquakes will soon strike the world, it will be the next prophesied event that will commence all that must happen, leading up to the Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign.

Psalms 46:1-11 The Lord is our refuge and stronghold, He will help us in trouble, so we are not afraid when the earth is shaking and the mountains move; when the waves of the sea roar and the earth is quaking before the Lords majesty. Nations are in an uproar and kingdoms fall when the Lord thunders; the earth burns.

Come and see what the Lord has done, the desolation He has brought on the earth. He makes wars to cease throughout the world, He breaks the bow, snaps the spear and burns the chariots in the fire.

There is a river whose flow brings joy to the city of God, the holy Place of the Most High. The Lord is within her, she will not be overthrown and at the break of Day, He will come to her aid.

Be still and know that I am God, I will be exalted among the nations and revered throughout the world. The Lord Almighty is with us, the God of Jacob is our Rock.


This describes how the Lord will judge and punish the nations and ‘the desolation He will bring to the earth’. He will destroy all weapons of war and military forces will be neutralized or wiped out, but the Lord promises ‘to be a refuge’ to His people, when at the ‘break of day, the sea roars, the earth quakes and burns’. It is His great Day of vengeance and wrath, a massive explosion of the suns surface that will bring about all the vividly described effects. We are warned to be prepared for that terrible Day, but our only true protection will be our faith and trust in the Lord. Isaiah 30:15-30

Isaiah 9:18-19 The ungodly will be set ablaze, as a fire that consumes briars and thorns. It sets the forests on fire and all is wrapped in a pall of smoke.

The land is scorched by the fury of the Lord and the people will be fuel for the fire. Ezekiel 21:1-7, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Romans 1:18, Hebrews 10:27

Psalms 50:1-5 The Lord is coming and will not remain silent. From the sunrise to the sunset, A consuming fire runs ahead of Him and all around a great storm rages. He calls to the heavens above and the earth below, that He may judge His people.

Gather to Me, My loyal servants, those who have made a Covenant with Me by sacrifice. 1 Peter 3:17 Ref: REB, NIV. Some verses abridged.


This is not the Return of Jesus in His glory, as that cannot happen until the Anti-Christ is revealed. 2 Thess. 2:3, Revelation 13:5-8
It will be the Lord’s judgement and punishment of the nations, Psalms 110:5-6, Habakkuk 3:12, and all the world will be affected. It will be triggered by an attack on the State of Israel by an Islamic confederation. Psalms 83

The Lord’s people will be judged, Jeremiah 46:27-28, 1 Peter 4:17 and those who are His ‘loyal servants’, will be protected. Zechariah 9:15-16, Joel 3:16, Psalms 37:9, Zephaniah 2:3, 2 Thess.1:6-10

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You are wrong, proved by how 2 Peter 3:7 says the godless will be destroyed.

That is what is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12. I'm pretty sure the godless cannot survive what is described there. I find your arguments to not be convincing at all. It's very obvious to me (and maybe everyone else but you as well) that 2 Peter 3:7 is talking about the same event as verse 10.

Verse 10 is also about the Lord's Day of fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, when all will be tried and tested - brought to judgment.

But 2 Peter 3:11-12 refers to the new heavens and earth, to come after the Millennium.

So, you not only try to say that verse 7 is a different event than verse 10, but now you're trying to say that verses 11 and 12 are a different event from verse 10, too? Unbelievable.

2 Peter 3:11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.

Verse 11 says "everything will be destroyed in this way". In what way? The way described in verse 10. Verse 12 says "That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heart". What day? The day of the Lord referenced in verse 10 (and verse 7). So, how can you say those verses are referring to the new heavens and new earth? No, the new heavens and new earth are referenced in verse 13.

 

[keras]

That is what is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12. I'm pretty sure the godless cannot survive what is described there. I find your arguments to not be convincing at all. It's very obvious to me (and maybe everyone else but you as well) that 2 Peter 3:7 is talking about the same event as verse 10.

So, you not only try to say that verse 7 is a different event than verse 10, but now you're trying to say that verses 11 and 12 are a different event from verse 10, too? Unbelievable.

2 Peter 3:11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.

Verse 11 says "everything will be destroyed in this way". In what way? The way described in verse 10. Verse 12 says "That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heart". What day? The day of the Lord referenced in verse 10 (and verse 7). So, how can you say those verses are referring to the new heavens and new earth? No, the new heavens and new earth are referenced in verse 13.

I carefully re-read 2 Peter 3:1-18
That Chapter is a sequence of events, starting with how we are now, to Eternity.

It is plain from many Prophesies that the Lord will again reset our civilization; we are now, once again; as in the days of Noah.
What I get from your replies, is an almost desperate avoidance of any possibility that some kind of terrible event could happen soon. But to believe that nothing dramatic will happen to prepare for the Return of Jesus, is a virtual rejection of the entire Bible.
God does have a Plan ad He has told us about it. Be ready to stand firm thru what must happen!

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I carefully re-read 2 Peter 3:1-18

Maybe you should re-read it again even more carefully.

That Chapter is a sequence of events, starting with how we are now, to Eternity.

It is plain from many Prophesies that the Lord will again reset our civilization; we are now, once again; as in the days of Noah.
What I get from your replies, is an almost desperate avoidance of any possibility that some kind of terrible event could happen soon. But to believe that nothing dramatic will happen to prepare for the Return of Jesus, is a virtual rejection of the entire Bible.
God does have a Plan ad He has told us about it. Be ready to stand firm thru what must happen!

I'm not avoiding anything. You always are left to resort to false accusations when you have nothing else. Your focus is always on physical catastrophes when scripture focuses on spiritual things. Paul said there will be a mass falling away from the faith before the return of Christ (2 Thess 2:1-3). I'd say that's a pretty dramatic thing that will happen as a sign of the soon return of Jesus.