Does God predestine sin?

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It says Romans 9:18-21, to which you reply "it does not say that."

I said, "Scripture as a whole".
I quoted several verses to you; you have ignored them all.

Are you not the one who is not reading Scripture as a whole, setting it against itself in Romans 9:18-21 and 1 John 4:8?

I'm not "setting it against itself".
I have quoted a number of verses, from both Old and New Testaments, to show what God is like - his love, purity, light, justice, perfection and so on. You seem to be saying that a few verses taken out of context, or at least, your interpretation of those verses, is more important than the ones which I quoted. One of which was 1 John 4:8.
 
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disciple Clint

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One can take their Christocentric view too far and read things into matters that are clearly analogous and get the OT wrong because they see a shadow in everything. Their "spiritualization" of the OT goes too far. John Goldingay explains this in one of his volumes. Parallel fulfillments are when the scriptures are applied to a situation because of its similarity, though the original passage was not specifically about that event.
Types and shadows are theologically accepted and have been for thousands of years. There are hundreds of O.T. scriptures that are fulfilled by Jesus.
 
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Greg Cheney

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Types and shadows are theologically accepted and have been for thousands of years. There are hundreds of O.T. scriptures that are fulfilled by Jesus.

Many things are theologically accepted that are not necessarily true. By the way, I never denied that there are scriptures that have been fulfilled by Christ, but there are different kinds of fulfillment: absolute, conditional, extrapolative, and analogous.
 
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disciple Clint

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Many things are theologically accepted that are not necessarily true. By the way, I never denied that there are scriptures that have been fulfilled by Christ, but there are different kinds of fulfillment: absolute, conditional, extrapolative, and analogous.
and there are different kinds of truth, what is the point that is attempting to be made.
 
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BBAS 64

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No, it sounds like God used Assyria to rebuke/chastise Israel. They were apparently supposed to just rob them, Isaiah 10:4, instead, they decided to destroy them - and then boasted about the power they had and what they had done, Isaiah 10:7-10.

They either didn't realise that God had a purpose for them and exceeded that purpose, or they knew exactly what God wanted, but disobeyed it anyway.

Good Day, SIH

So God used Assyria ( like a stick) and had no idea before he decided to use them in that way what they were going to do in exceeding his supposed purpose.

So the stick determined how it would be used...and could not be controlled?

Isa 10:12 When the Lord has finished all his work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, he will punish the speech of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the boastful look in his eyes.

You certainly read a lot into the text that the text does not contain "sounds like".

The Lord finished with the stick "All His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem"

The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will.


In Him,

Bill
 
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rwb

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In case I misunderstood, are you saying that God ordained sin because he has a purpose for sin? Or that God purposed to deal with sin once it occurred?

God dealt with sin through Christ, the Lamb slain from before creation. It was necessary for God to provide a remedy for sin before creation because He created man to have free will. God could have created man ordaining they would love Him. But instead, He created them to WANT to love Him. Why would they love Him since through their freedom of will they soon learned they could be their own gods, and do according to their own will? With freedom of will they soon discovered (so they thought) they had no more need of a God Who would command them to obey Him or die. That's the heart of deception Satan uses, convincing mankind they will be just fine without submitting to their Creator.

Remember this testing of mankind at creation was before man was endowed with knowledge of both good or evil. Had God not provided a remedy for sin and death before creation mankind of their own free will would have soon destroyed God's glorious creation and plunged not only themselves but the whole of creation into utter ruin. That was the goal of Satan when he deceived them into believing they did not need God, and without Him they could live happily ever after.

After man was made aware of the full effect of their disobedience to God, death, God showed them that they were not utterly lost because He has before creation ordained His own Son would be born of man and give His life to save not only those who turn to Him in faith, but all of creation. His death paid the price of sin for the whole world. Creation would not be lost because of sin, and death through sin.

It was by showing the results of freedom of will for mankind that they learned of the loving provision from God to save them. But knowing that mankind with total autonomy would never choose of his/her own free will to serve Him, God ordained a people for Himself. And He changes their will, making them willing to come to Him for life everlasting. A people who would understand the consequences of their free will, when they hear the message of the cross and resurrection, the gospel. In understanding the power of God by grace through faith supplied through the Holy Spirit His elect people would willingly turn to Christ for everlasting life. And God's glorious creation in the end will be made new again and filled with His people who were willing to have Christ as their Savior.
 
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rwb

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I used the definition that applied. A word can have more than one meaning, it doesn't mean that you apply all of the possibilities to the same word. Context matters. The Bible nowhere says that God is the author of moral evil. It does reveal that he brings calamity.

Neither have I said that God is the author of moral evil! What I did say is that God created the one who brings evil and death into His creation. And that God had a purpose for creating the serpent (Satan), to accomplish God's will to save creation, and have a people for Himself, a people who would willingly love Him.
 
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Greg Cheney

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God dealt with sin through Christ, the Lamb slain from before creation. It was necessary for God to provide a remedy for sin before creation because He created man to have free will. God could have created man ordaining they would love Him. But instead, He created them to WANT to love Him. Why would they love Him since through their freedom of will they soon learned they could be their own gods, and do according to their own will? With freedom of will they soon discovered (so they thought) they had no more need of a God Who would command them to obey Him or die. That's the heart of deception Satan uses, convincing mankind they will be just fine without submitting to their Creator.

Remember this testing of mankind at creation was before man was endowed with knowledge of both good or evil. Had God not provided a remedy for sin and death before creation mankind of their own free will would have soon destroyed God's glorious creation and plunged not only themselves but the whole of creation into utter ruin. That was the goal of Satan when he deceived them into believing they did not need God, and without Him they could live happily ever after.

After man was made aware of the full effect of their disobedience to God, death, God showed them that they were not utterly lost because He has before creation ordained His own Son would be born of man and give His life to save not only those who turn to Him in faith, but all of creation. His death paid the price of sin for the whole world. Creation would not be lost because of sin, and death through sin.

It was by showing the results of freedom of will for mankind that they learned of the loving provision from God to save them. But knowing that mankind with total autonomy would never choose of his/her own free will to serve Him, God ordained a people for Himself. And He changes their will, making them willing to come to Him for life everlasting. A people who would understand the consequences of their free will, when they hear the message of the cross and resurrection, the gospel. In understanding the power of God by grace through faith supplied through the Holy Spirit His elect people would willingly turn to Christ for everlasting life. And God's glorious creation in the end will be made new again and filled with His people who were willing to have Christ as their Savior.

I disagree with your premise that God chose some to turn to him and left the rest for damnation. It is not supported by scripture, only by Calvinist interpretations.
 
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ViaCrucis

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No, it would not.

Sin did not catch God by surprise, nor happen outside his will and power.

If God has predestined every sinful act you do, then that makes Him culpable for your sins, and makes Him the biggest sinner of all. And would render Him a hypocrite far worse than even the most hard-hearted Pharisee.

If God says "Do not murder" but then has arranged the universe so that you have to murder, then you have become nothing more than a marionette whose strings are manipulated by a monster.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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And the starting place of Jesus and everything else Christian is the word of God written, understood in its own terms and in the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit.

I emphatically disagree. The Bible isn't the object of our faith, Jesus Christ is. The Bible points to Jesus, not the other way around.

As Martin Luther wrote, "It is for Christ's sake that we believe in the Scriptures, but it is not for the
Scriptures' sake that we believe in Christ."

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Good Day, SIH

So God used Assyria ( like a stick) and had no idea before he decided to use them in that way what they were going to do in exceeding his supposed purpose.

God knew that Adam was going to disobey his command not to eat from the tree; he still gave Adam that choice.
And punished him when he did not obey.

So the stick determined how it would be used...and could not be controlled?

God doesn't control anyone.
If he was going to control those whom he created in his image, he would have made them to be incapable of sinning - like robots, "I will obey, I will obey".

You certainly read a lot into the text that the text does not contain "sounds like".

The reason I said, "it sounds like ..." was because I had not read the verses and chapter.
Here is the verse you quoted in context:

God’s Judgment on Assyria
5 “Woe to the Assyrian, the rod of my anger,
in whose hand is the club of my wrath!
6 I send him against a godless nation,
I dispatch him against a people who anger me,
to seize loot and snatch plunder,
and to trample them down like mud in the streets.
7 But this is not what he intends,
this is not what he has in mind;
his purpose is to destroy,
to put an end to many nations.
8 ‘Are not my commanders all kings?’ he says.
9 ‘Has not Kalno fared like Carchemish?
Is not Hamath like Arpad,
and Samaria like Damascus?
10 As my hand seized the kingdoms of the idols,
kingdoms whose images excelled those of Jerusalem and Samaria—
11 shall I not deal with Jerusalem and her images
as I dealt with Samaria and her idols?’”

12 When the Lord has finished all his work against Mount Zion and Jerusalem, he will say, “I will punish the king of Assyria for the willful pride of his heart and the haughty look in his eyes. 13 For he says:

“‘By the strength of my hand I have done this,
and by my wisdom, because I have understanding.
I removed the boundaries of nations,
I plundered their treasures;
like a mighty one I subdued their kings.
14 As one reaches into a nest,
so my hand reached for the wealth of the nations;
as people gather abandoned eggs,
so I gathered all the countries;
not one flapped a wing,
or opened its mouth to chirp.’”

In Isaiah 7:20, God says that he will use Assyria to punish Israel.
In Isaiah 8:4-7 the Lord says that he will use Assyria to punish Israel for their sins.

I don't believe that the Lord would have punished Assyria for standing against/fighting Jerusalem, when he was He who had said that he wanted Assyria to do just that. He is not unreasonable.
As we can see from the verses from Isaiah 10; firstly Assyria had another punishment in mind for Israel; and secondly they were boasting about what THEY had done, "by the strength of their hand". In other words - in my own strength; when in fact it was God who wanted them to do it.
 
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Greg Cheney

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and there are different kinds of truth, what is the point that is attempting to be made.

The point is, as originally stated, the death of Christ was God's plan; according to God's own words the mode of his death was not preordained - unless one thinks God was toying with words when he stated the possibility of a different outcome (you would not have crucified the Lord of glory). The "types" of the OT are not necessarily prophecies; but we can see their fulfillments in Christ. Knowing the difference is helpful.
 
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Greg Cheney

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Neither have I said that God is the author of moral evil! What I did say is that God created the one who brings evil and death into His creation. And that God had a purpose for creating the serpent (Satan), to accomplish God's will to save creation, and have a people for Himself, a people who would willingly love Him.

You previously said that God created evil and had a purpose for evil. I stated that the reference in Isaiah refers to calamity, destruction, etc., and you made a point to speak of moral evil and said that God has a purpose for sin.

You seem to be someone who talks in circles. In fairness to you, I simply ask this: do you believe that God ordained sin?
 
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rwb

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I disagree with your premise that God chose some to turn to him and left the rest for damnation. It is not supported by scripture, only by Calvinist interpretations.

Is that what I said? I don't think so. I said God ordains people for Himself. I said nothing about leaving any people for damnation. Why does God need to choose some for condemnation since He knows before creation that all mankind, of their own free will, will not choose to turn to Christ for life? Isn't that the whole reason for God ordaining His elect for eternal life? Add then to prove God knew exactly what mankind would choose, they prove Him right at the creation when of their own free will they disobeyed God and brought sin and death through sin into creation...according to their own free will!
 
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Greg Cheney

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Is that what I said? I don't think so. I said God ordains people for Himself. I said nothing about leaving any people for damnation. Why does God need to choose some for condemnation since He knows before creation that all mankind, of their own free will, will not choose to turn to Christ for life? Isn't that the whole reason for God ordaining His elect for eternal life? Add then to prove God knew exactly what mankind would choose, they prove Him right at the creation when of their own free will they disobeyed God and brought sin and death through sin into creation...according to their own free will!

If God chose some and did not choose others when they had no say - he chose some for damnation. That is inescapable.
 
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TedT

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Who made that dubious rule?
Not a rule at all - but just as a cat is identified by its catness, so GOD is identified by HIS goodness which is destroyed by the assumption HIS Sovereignty overrides HIS goodness...in fact if not in theory.
 
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rwb

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You previously said that God created evil and had a purpose for evil. I stated that the reference in Isaiah refers to calamity, destruction, etc., and you made a point to speak of moral evil and said that God has a purpose for sin.

You seem to be someone who talks in circles. In fairness to you, I simply ask this: do you believe that God ordained sin?

Creating the serpent (Satan) more subtil then any other creature He created tells us that God knew He would be cunning and crafty with man. No God does not ordain sin, God allows sin to exist or He would not have created the serpent to be cunning and crafty. It was for the purpose of saving a people for Himself that God created the serpent in this way. I've already explained this and see no need to explain it again.
 
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Greg Cheney

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Creating the serpent (Satan) more subtil then any other creature He created tells us that God knew He would be cunning and crafty with man. No God does not ordain sin, God allows sin to exist or He would not have created the serpent to be cunning and crafty. It was for the purpose of saving a people for Himself that God created the serpent in this way. I've already explained this and see no need to explain it again.

You may see no need to explain yourself, but again, you seem to talk in circles. You stated God had a purpose for sin. I asked if you think God ordains sin and you just now stated "no" - thank you for the clarification. But your explanation concerning allowing sin, the creation of the serpent, etc., appears to be lacking clarity. Perhaps you have not conveyed what you are actually thinking, in fairness to you.
 
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rwb

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If God chose some and did not choose others when they had no say - he chose some for damnation. That is inescapable.

That's according to your understanding, not mine. I don't believe double pre-destination is biblical. I view predestination and election from a positive point of view, but you from a negative. God chooses none for damnation, we freely chose condemnation and death when we disobeyed God in the beginning and chose instead to heed the voice of the serpent. The wonderful, loving and amazing part of all of this is "BUT GOD" knowing man created with total autonomy would never choose Him, not even for life ordained a plan in eternity to save a people for Himself, and they would love Him and turn to His Son for eternal life, not by man's will but by the will of God.

John 1:13 (KJV) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
 
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Greg Cheney

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That's according to your understanding, not mine. I don't believe double pre-destination is biblical. I view predestination and election from a positive point of view, but you from a negative. God chooses none for damnation, we freely chose condemnation and death when we disobeyed God in the beginning and chose instead to heed the voice of the serpent. The wonderful, loving and amazing part of all of this is "BUT GOD" knowing man created with total autonomy would never choose Him, not even for life ordained a plan in eternity to save a people for Himself, and they would love Him and turn to His Son for eternal life, not by man's will but by the will of God.

John 1:13 (KJV) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

If I could have saved 10 people but only saved 5 from a burning fire, I chose not to save the other 5. Call it what you wish.
 
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