The Sun Revolves Around The Earth: Scripture Cannot Lie

[Xeno.of.athens]

Read it.

I have.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Have to correct this very common false assumption. The Jewish year is NOT 360 days long. It has never been in the temple era and beyond. It was always 12 lunar months in length. 12 * 29.5 = 354 days. Since that is about 11 days short of a solar year, an additional leap month was added every 2 or 3 years. In those years, it was 384 days long. Lots of people who are not educated in the Jewish calendar, state the year is 360 days assuming the time periods in Revelation work out to 360 day years. But this can be easily shown to work out using the actual 354/384 day year length.

364 days. Solar, not lunar.
4 days are sabbath/stop days in the heavens, not numbered in the days of the week nor the parts added (18 parts in a day, not 24 hours), but the number of the 4 are added to the year as to days at the end of the year.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I have.

Read it as to what it says.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Oh my, oh my. You deluded. Please do some research. Especially what the Talmud actually is. Good day. You aren't worth responding to anymore.

The Talmud is NOT Scripture, not historical truth, not doctrine of "Thus saith YHVH".

 

[Hmm]

histirical truth

Is that a typo for "hysterical" truth, of either meaning?

 

[The Liturgist]

I'm amazed that people in this discussion don't seem to understand the importance of facts. You say you saw no reason to mention the existence of an Aramaic document written in the homeland of the Jewish people that was used weekly in their synagogues? Whether or not it is used in modern Judaism is entirely not the point. The fact that it even exists is the point. That is was written in Aramaic and used in the religious life of the community is evidence of the fact that Aramaic was the lingua franca of the people. And....this goes a long way to show that the New Testament was first written in Aramaic for exactly the same reasons.

I was not seeking to make a statement. The existence of the Jerusalem Talmud is not in my opinion relevant to the issue of Aramaic Primacy because by the time it was compiled the Hellenic Jews had mostly converted to Christianity or Paganism or been absorbed into Raninnical Judaism, with the probable exception of the ancestors of the Romaniote Jews of Greece and Cyprus, and the Italian Rite Jews of the Latin speaking parts of the Roman Empire not conquered by the Muslims.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Is that a typo for "hysterical" truth, of either meaning?

I am sure it is a typo, "historical" being the intended word since i and o are next to each other on a typical US style keyboard.

 

[The Liturgist]

The Talmud is NOT Scripture, not histirical truth, not doctrine of "Thus saith YHVH".

That is correct. There are actually two Talmuds, but neither the one most Jews actually use, the Babylonian Talmud, or the incomplete and relatively obscure Jerusalem Talmud, are inspired Scripture from a Christian perspective, nor do I think the Jews regard them as inspired scripture.

They basically represent the doctrines of Pharisaical Judaism known as the Mishnah combined with Rabinnical discussions of these, called Gemara, and Rabinnical folklore and non-legal exegesis called Aggadah, some of which is amusing, such as a collection in the Tractate Baba Bathra of wacky fish stories, including an implausible claim by a Rabbi that he and his shipmates landed on an island with palm trees and grass, only to their alarm to have the island disintegrate, for it existed on the back of a giant whale or other sea creature which decided to dive after they started walking about on it.

On the other hand, some Aggadah is blasphemous, for example, a section, censored from Talmuds printed in Christian countries, which accused our Lord of being the son of a Roman soldier named Panthera, and accused the Blessed Virgin Mary of prostitution. This section does exist in Talmuds printed outside the Christian world, or produced in manuscript form, and there are a few other scurrilous attacks on the person of our Lord.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

I was not seeking to make a statement. The existence of the Jerusalem Talmud is not in my opinion relevant to the issue of Aramaic Primacy because by the time it was compiled the Hellenic Jews had mostly converted to Christianity or Paganism or been absorbed into Raninnical Judaism, with the probable exception of the ancestors of the Romaniote Jews of Greece and Cyprus, and the Italian Rite Jews of the Latin speaking parts of the Roman Empire not conquered by the Muslims.

There it is again - "not in my opinion". So facts mean nothing in this discussion. Gotcha. Well, that's not how the truth operates, in case you were not aware.

It's very obvious that the people making statements in this discussion can not separate out the difference between the veracity of documents as compared with the historicity of documents. Just because certain Jewish documents are not on par with Scripture - in that they are not manuscripts either of the Old or New Testaments, does not make them unimportant evidence when discussing the culture of the period. You do not have to consider them the "word of God" in order to determine essential facts of how the language contained within prove that Aramaic was the lingua franca of the Jewish homeland during the time of Jesus Christ.

Again, the mere existence of the Jerusalem Talmud shows that the people needed and required Jewish religious information in their native and normal used tongue. If you absolutely can not accept anything about the Talmud in your narrow mind, then deal with the Targums. These were paraphrases of Scripture in Aramaic and also used weekly in the synagogues.

There seems to be such a lack of critical thinking ability in this present modern age.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Is that a typo for "hysterical" truth, of either meaning?

Yes. It's hard to type with one finger on tiny phone keyboard.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Reply

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Trying to answer a post.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Interesting that pretty much everything in the part of "Enoch" you spoke of is observably untrue. The sun traveling north and then east to as to ride in the east? Seriously? Even from a purely terrestrial viewpoint that's rubbish.

So when can we see the sun moving west to east?

Observably true. The earth does not tilt, rotate, spin, nor move out of it’s place. The heavens revolve around the earth once each day, which day in Enoch is 18 parts, not 24 hours, and Stonehenge, for instance, in my opinion -and others’ -was built as an observatory of the heavenly bodies rotating around the earth in their own paths to mark days and months and years, as God said they were made so as to do.
So when the earth is moved out of it’s fixed place, skips about like a hunted roe, and is turned upside down, and the sun is seen moving in the west, and burns men on earth, and the days are shortened by 1/3 of them, making 12 parts in a day instead of 18, which days are cut off/short, so that all flesh on earth -for the elect/Israel’s sake are not destroyed by the severe heat -and men on earth take the changes in the stars in heaven to mean the stars are gods, and worship them -to their utter destruction, as is taught in Enoch the prophet, and in Isaiah, and in Revelation, as the glorified human [Enoch] serving with the angels in the heavens who comes out of the temple in the sun in heaven with one of the bowls of wrath in the Great Tribulation, and shows John all these things to come, John then writes them down for us to read, also.
But! I will not be dwelling on earth below in those days, but will be in heaven, with all the raptured and resurrected saints, enjoying the presence of the LORD and fellow shipping with all the saints, and learning in the library -my preferred place to be, then
But since you do not read these things, Jipsah, I am not going to go look up all those passages for you.

 

[Jipsah]

364 days. Solar, not lunar.

Then it was off by a day and a quarter per year. IE, less accurate than ours.

4 days are sabbath/stop days in the heavens, not numbered in the days of the week nor the parts added (18 parts in a day, not 24 hours), but the number of the 4 are added to the year as to days at the end of the year.

Gibberish.

 

[Jipsah]

Observably true.

The daily novement of the sun to the north? In what imaginary universe?

The earth does not tilt, rotate, spin, nor move out of it’s place.

Out of its place in orbit, no. Tilt and spin? Observably true, whatever you think the Bible "means". [/quote]

The heavens revolve around the earth once each day

Just as the highway rushes under my car on my way to Nashville.

which day in Enoch is 18 parts, not 24 hours

Both equally arbitrary numbers.

and Stonehenge, for instance, in my opinion -and others’ -was built as an observatory of the heavenly bodies

Could be. So what?

rotating around the earth in their own paths to mark days and months and years

Just as Nashville comes roaring south toward me as my car reels it in.

as God said they were made so as to do.

God said no such thing, that's simply your extraordinarily silly idea of what He meant.

So when the earth is moved out of it’s fixed place, skips about like a hunted roe, and is turned upside down, and the sun is seen moving in the west

You mean as I have slipped the surly bonds of earth, and danced the sky on laughter's silvered wings, hovered there and chased the shouting winds alond, reached out my hand and touched the face of God? LIke that? Not one for poetry, I take it.

the days are shortened by 1/3 of them, making 12 parts in a day instead of 18

There are actually 6 parts , or watches, in a day, each divided into eight intervals indicated by from one to eight bells.

as is taught in Enoch the prophet

Who published an altogether and observably false description of the workings of the solar system, thus pretty much destroying any credibility as a prophet.

who comes out of the temple in the sun

As I noted, Rosie the dog likes to sit in the sun, as well. Special doggie, huh?

But since you do not read these things, Jipsah, I am not going to go look up all those passages for you.

I've probably read them more often than you have, being considerably older, but I simply don't feel the need to attach a meaning to them that was never intended. If you want to learn how the solar system works, study the solar syste, something you obviously haven't wasted a single second doing.[/quote]

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Then it was off by a day and a quarter per year. IE, less accurate than ours.
.

Perfect years.
Equinox to solstice
Equinox to solstice
The first day of Fall
The first day of Winter
The first day of Spring &
The first day of Summer
are Sabbath/Stop days in the heavens, and are not counted as to being 18 parts each, of the year.
The next day after each of those 4 stop/sabbath days, the sun enters the same exact "window" of it's new season after it's circle around the earth, and the 18 parts of each day are again counted in the week.

360 days. 52 weeks.
At the end of the year, those 4 days are added to the 360, to make a year of exactly 364 days, but the 18 parts of those 4 days are not added.
"The year is completed in perfect justice, unto eternity", as Enoch wrote.
Each of the 360 days is exactly 18 parts long.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

as Enoch wrote.

Do you receive what Enoch wrote as holy scripture?

 

[Jipsah]

360 days. 52 weeks.
At the end of the year, those 4 days are added to the 360, to make a year of exactly 364 days, but the 18 parts of those 4 days are not added.
"The year is completed in perfect justice, unto eternity", as Enoch wrote.
Each of the 360 days is exactly 18 parts long.

Which is still 5 1/4 days shorter than an actual year. Enoch was consistently wrong, anyway. You can pretty much depend on anything he said being rubbish.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Do you receive what Enoch wrote as holy scripture?

Yes I do, unashamedly so, as the foundations are laid down in Enoch which all Torah, the prophets and The New Covenant do not relay again, because once laid, they are used as factual truth and wisdom that does not need to be laid down again by those who write by inspiration of YHVH after that.

 

[The Liturgist]

Which is still 5 1/4 days shorter than an actual year. Enoch was consistently wrong, anyway. You can pretty much depend on anything he said being rubbish.

I think 1 Enoch does deserve some credit, since it was quoted by St. Jude and is in the Ethiopian Orthodox canon, and parts of it correspond with established doctrine, for example, the four principle archangels Saints Michael, Gabriel, Rafael and Uriel. I think it is meant to be read like the Song of Solomon or to a lesser extent Job or Jonah, or the Revelation of St. John, as a highly metaphorical, spiritual, prophetic, typological apocalypse, using primarily Alexandrian exegesis rather than using the Antiochene Literal-Historical exegesis that is appropriate for, say, Luke-Acts, or the books of Samuel, and the Chronicles and Joshua or Judges (and even these books have aspects which have value if read using Alexandrian exegesis, for example, in 2 Samuel the description of the reign of King David, who was 30 when he became King and ruled all of Israel for 33 years - the ministry of Christ our Lord was between the ages of 30 and 33.

And when we use Alexandrian exegesis, Christological prophecy starts to become apparent in 1 Enoch. For example, let us consider this Pericope, of the Fragrant Tree, from 1 Enoch 24:3-25:1-7

3 The seventh mountain (was) in the middle of these, and it rose above them in height, like the seat of a throne. And fragrant[66] trees encircled it. 4 Among them was a tree such as I had never smelled, and among them was no other like it. It had a fragrance sweeter smelling than all spices, and its leaves and its blossom and the tree never wither. Its fruit is beautiful, like dates of the palm trees.
5 Then I said, “How beautiful is this tree and fragrant, and its leaves are lovely, and its blossoms are lovely to look at.”
6 Then Michael answered me, one of the holy angels who was with me and was their leader,

Ch. 25

1 and he said to me, “Enoch, why do you inquire and why do you marvel about the fragrance of this tree, and why do you wish to learn the truth?”
2 Then I answered him—I, Enoch—and said, “Concerning all things I wish to know, but especially concerning this tree.”
3 And he answered me and said, “This high mountain that you saw, whose peak is like the throne of God, is the seat where the Great Holy One, the Lord of glory, the King of eternity, will sit, when he descends to visit the earth in goodness.
4 And (as for) this fragrant tree, no flesh ahas the right to touch it until the great judgment, in which there will be vengeance on all and a consummation forever. Then it will be given to the righteous and the pious,
5 and its fruit will be food for the chosen. And it will be transplanted to the holy place, by the house of God, the King of eternity.
6 Then they will rejoice greatly and be glad, and they will enter into the sanctuary. Its fragrances <will be> in their bones, and they will live a long life on the earth, such as your fathers lived also in their days,
and torments and plagues and suffering will not touch them.”
7 Then I blessed the God of glory, the King of eternity, who has prepared such things for people (who are) righteous, and has created them and promised to give (them) to them.

Clearly, this pericope, from the translation 1 Enoch: The Hermeneia Translation, is a typological prophecy of the Cross, commonly represented as the Tree of Life, and Christ offering Himself to us in the Eucharist.

In this respect it is similiar to the Songs of the Suffering Servant in Isaiah, and the related content in Wisdom chapter 2, which are undoubtably prophecies of the Passion of our Lord on the Cross.

So if we read 1 Enoch literally, we get wacky results, much more than just a geocentric model, we would find ourselves with a flat Earth and a land of fire in the West responsible for the Sunset. If we read it as typological Christological prophecy, remembering that all of the Old Testament is about Christ, as He revealed to His disciples at the end of Luke, before being known to them in the breaking of bread (the Eucharist), so for example, Jonah, while I believe it literally happened, is also a prophecy of the three days Christ was confined in a tomb, and a comparison of the humanity of Jonah enfeebled by sim and the humanity of Christ strengthened by His sinlessness, and of the importance of repentence, if we read 1 Enoch using the Alexandrian technique, there is value to it.

The danger is these days, most Christians have forgotten about Alexandrian exegesis, and assume a literal interpretation is intended for everything, when this view is actually disproven by a literal reading of the Gospel According to Luke, and furthermore, when some books like the Song of Solomon only make sense when interpreted as typological prophecy. 1 Enoch is such a book, and it should be stressed, that since the Ethiopian Church was until the 20th century an autonomous church under the omophorion of the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria, whose Patriarch, or Abune, was appointed by the Coptic Patriarchate, we should expect the Ethiopians read it using Alexandrian technique, since Ethiopia was historically one of the most advanced civilizations of antiquity, and possesses, among other scientific and technical accomplishments (like rock-hewn churches and coffee), the oldest system of musical notation still in continuous use, and would not assume the world was flat or that the Sun set in a firery land, responsible for the sunset (particularly since it was a mathematician in neighboring Egypt who in antiquity determined the approximate curvature of the Earth).