Why there is no secret rapture.

[Neostarwcc]

There just isn't enough scriptural evidence that a secret rapture will take place. The verses people use to defend a secret rapture actually say that the rapture is going to be a visible event. Are Christians going to be spared the coming Judgement when Christ comes for his bride (the elect)? Of course! But every eye will see it when Christ comes with the clouds of heaven. Even those who are suffering in hell will see it. Including Judas. Let's examine 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with the cry of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

I don't know about you but to me this sounds like a very audible and visual event that the whole world will see and hear. Christ also tells Ciaphas in Mark 14:62 that he will see Jesus coming with the cloud of heaven. Not just Ciaphas but the second coming of Jesus will be seen by both the living and the dead. Including Judas. Hardly a secret.

 

[BravoM]

God is not the creator/author of confusion, secrecy, or hiding things from us on purpose.
We will not reveal "secrets" to some people and leave out others.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Yup, the main verse (passage) used is 1 Thessalonians 5:1-9 where the return of the Lord is described as a thief in the night, but the passage actually defines what it means by this.

In 1 Thessalonians 5:3-4 it describes a sudden return that some will not be prepared for. We "as children of light" will be able to discern the signs of the times and see that the Lord's return is near and more importantly, we will be at the Master's work so when he does return we will be prepared like it says:

So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober... since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation.

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), 1 Th 5:6, 8

42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 47 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. 48 But if that wicked servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants and eats and drinks with drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know 51 and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Mt 24:42–51.

 

[Blade]

There just isn't enough scriptural evidence that a secret rapture will take place. The verses people use to defend a secret rapture actually say that the rapture is going to be a visible event. Are Christians going to be spared the coming Judgement when Christ comes for his bride (the elect)? Of course! But every eye will see it when Christ comes with the clouds of heaven. Even those who are suffering in hell will see it. Including Judas. Let's examine 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with the cry of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

I don't know about you but to me this sounds like a very audible and visual event that the whole world will see and hear. Christ also tells Ciaphas in Mark 14:62 that he will see Jesus coming with the cloud of heaven. Not just Ciaphas but the second coming of Jesus will be seen by both the living and the dead. Including Judas. Hardly a secret.

I guess its where you wish to add some speculation to each view for pre mid post.. there is no "scriptural evidence" for any of them unless you add speculation and "what that verse really means" to it. In 1st Thes no where does it say "ever eye shall see". Taking that from Matt what 24 does not fit here. Just putting those two side by side they do not match.

Now when Christ returns the world will see and they wil not be happy. He will then set foot on the earth and gather the nations..those that just came out of the great tribulation. He then splits them sheep and goats to some He says "I never knew you" those were never saved for He said "I never knew you". I Know He knows me every angel rejoiced when He found me and He told the Father about me WOOT!

So Christ will come in the clouds the died will rise then we also changed caught up together to meet Christ in the air to be with Him forever. Some like to quote Matt 24 and how true it is regarding Christs return.. ok but what about Christ saying He is going back to His Fathers house to make us a home and that He will come back to recieve us so where He is we will be. Where He is we know and how He went we know. So WHERE is Christ? Its not Christ will be where we are <---that is not written. He made a place for us in His Fathers house so where he is (Fathers house) we will be. So when does that happen?

Thief comes and steals yet Christ is no thief yet He does come and take whats His and they never saw it for they were not ready. Our personal belief here is not scripture so be very unwise to belief that over whats written. Fact if one is not ready not watching does not believe you really think He will take them anyway? See He will come in the clouds and the dead will rise and we will go up also now "when" that happens no one knows but it will happen. So me? I am always watching always thinking of Him and everything thing I do so it shines Him. I am always ready now and I will not miss Him.

had to add the song playing now "Even So Come"

 

[sandman]

The “gathering together unto Him” aka “rapture” is no longer a secret… It is going to happen according to the Word of the Lord (1Th 4:15a) at an undetermined time. It was a secret (mystery) kept hidden in God ….until Paul received the revelation regarding this event.

So the question becomes: What do you need or how many scripture are necessary for you to understand that this event will take place. If it is the “Word of the Lord”…. Wouldn’t one scripture be sufficient?
It really is not a matter of quantity…it is a matter of quality. And by quality I mean, how receptive you are. In other words ….are you reading what you believe ….or believing what you read. …It’s there, and once you see it, you can’t unsee it.

I have found that many…and I am not saying you…. but many people who dismiss the rapture willingly dismiss many scriptures in effort to maintain their belief. Not only do they dismiss scripture some will bring up totally irrelevant things like Darby and how he was the first to bring this to light ….that’s absurd. Paul was the first when he received the revelation from Jesus Christ.

And then there are those who use dispensationalism in attempt the pigeonhole, dismiss and discredit the writer of any pro rapture….and yet, it is a biblical term. Dispensations (better translated administration) is a mode of dealing, an arrangement, or administration of affairs …”a steward”. It is not a period or epoch, as Vine states ....however each administration covers a period of time, age or era…. And stewardship indicates that the steward is under a higher authority of someone or something. And while an administration is not an epoch, every administration covers a period of time and is terminated by death or decree.

We know from the Bible God earmarked the period we are in now as the grace administration (Eph 3:2) And if there is one administration… there has to be at least one previous as a demarcation to whatever was before Grace… And when the grace administration ceases, there has to be another if the text continues…which it does in Revelation….. So, already we have three, that’s all I need …. I actually can see two more after grace…. but I won’t be here… at least not in an earth suite.

With all that stated I could probably come up with 100 or so scripture dealing with the rapture….but understanding the fundamentals of the lay-out is critical …and the primary one is that there are no prophecy in the OT or the gospels (which belong in the OT) that deal with the administration of grace…..my first sentence explains why.
It is not hidden or covert and if you are interested I'll continue...

 

[Hmm]

I like NT Wright's take that the Rapture is not meant to be taken literally because it's a literary device Paul uses to conjure up images of an emperor visiting a colony or province. The custom at the time was for citizens to go out to meet him in open country and then escort him into the city. So the image of when "we meet Him in the air" should be read with the assumption that we will immediately turn around and lead Him back to the newly remade world.

 

[BobRyan]

I like NT Wright's take that the Rapture is not meant to be taken literally because it's a literary device Paul uses to conjure up images of an emperor visiting a colony or province.

There is no case where Emperors raise the dead and snatch people up in the air to meet them... yet that is what we see in 1 Thess 4:13-18 regarding those among the saints who "sleep in Jesus" and those who "are alive and remain".

Matt 24:29-31 makes it very visible.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

There just isn't enough scriptural evidence that a secret rapture will take place. The verses people use to defend a secret rapture actually say that the rapture is going to be a visible event. Are Christians going to be spared the coming Judgement when Christ comes for his bride (the elect)? Of course! But every eye will see it when Christ comes with the clouds of heaven. Even those who are suffering in hell will see it. Including Judas. Let's examine 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with the cry of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

I don't know about you but to me this sounds like a very audible and visual event that the whole world will see and hear. Christ also tells Ciaphas in Mark 14:62 that he will see Jesus coming with the cloud of heaven. Not just Ciaphas but the second coming of Jesus will be seen by both the living and the dead. Including Judas. Hardly a secret.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, console one another with these words.

It is a noisy event, according to the above passage. No room for a secret rapture if it is accompanied by the trumpet [blast] of God.

 

[ViaCrucis]

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, console one another with these words.

It is a noisy event, according to the above passage. No room for a secret rapture if it is accompanied by the trumpet [blast] of God.

Not to mention people literally and physically coming out of the ground. With literally millions (if not billions) of people being raised from the dead and taken to meet the glorious returning Christ (of which we read "every eye shall see Him") the whole notion that Jesus is going to silently poof people into heaven to escape seven years is made pretty abundantly absurd. That, and Scripture and the last two thousand years of Christian faith is explicitly clear that when Jesus returns, that's it, that's the end. Jesus said it happens on the Last Day.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[sandman]

Not to mention people literally and physically coming out of the ground. With literally millions (if not billions) of people being raised from the dead and taken to meet the glorious returning Christ (of which we read "every eye shall see Him") the whole notion that Jesus is going to silently poof people into heaven to escape seven years is made pretty abundantly absurd. That, and Scripture and the last two thousand years of Christian faith is explicitly clear that when Jesus returns, that's it, that's the end. Jesus said it happens on the Last Day.

-CryptoLutheran

I love that word Poof! I know we discussed it before …... it’s not only funny …it's descriptive.

But your post is assuming there is a secret rapture, I think post 8 by Xeno.of.athens makes that clear.

 

[tomartomau]

I don't support a global rapture per se, however God is free to take whomever and whenever. This period in Church History in the west is largely unprecedented as imo the West has enjoyed a period of freedom from persecution. This is not saying that there is not persecution, far from it just not do much in the West. To put this in perspective, the Fox's Book of Martyrs describes in details the sufferings of the church in times past.
I also believe that one reason behind a growing and faithful church occurs when there is persecution.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I love that word Poof! I know we discussed it before …... it’s not only funny …it's descriptive.

But your post is assuming there is a secret rapture, I think post 8 by Xeno.of.athens makes that clear.

This thread is about a supposed "secret rapture". So, yes that is the assumption that I am speaking against.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

I don't support a global rapture per se, however God is free to take whomever and whenever. This period in Church History in the west is largely unprecedented as imo the West has enjoyed a period of freedom from persecution. This is not saying that there is not persecution, far from it just not do much in the West. To put this in perspective, the Fox's Book of Martyrs describes in details the sufferings of the church in times past.
I also believe that one reason behind a growing and faithful church occurs when there is persecution.

You're not wrong that we have experienced a very long period of affluence and comfort; though I'd point out that Fox's Book of Martyrs is not a great source of hagiography. The problem with Fox's Book of Martyrs is that it ignores that violence and persecution came from both sides in the Wars of Religion. Protestants were also persecuting Catholics where they had political power. Protestants persecuted Catholics, Catholics persecuted Protestants, and Protestants persecuted other Protestants. Lots of Christians from many different persuasions suffered in some capacity; as we are dealing with a period of Western History in which Christians were hurting other Christians.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[tomartomau]

Point taken that it is a Protestant history of persecution.

 

[Jonaitis]

There just isn't enough scriptural evidence that a secret rapture will take place. The verses people use to defend a secret rapture actually say that the rapture is going to be a visible event. Are Christians going to be spared the coming Judgement when Christ comes for his bride (the elect)? Of course! But every eye will see it when Christ comes with the clouds of heaven. Even those who are suffering in hell will see it. Including Judas. Let's examine 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with the cry of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

I don't know about you but to me this sounds like a very audible and visual event that the whole world will see and hear. Christ also tells Ciaphas in Mark 14:62 that he will see Jesus coming with the cloud of heaven. Not just Ciaphas but the second coming of Jesus will be seen by both the living and the dead. Including Judas. Hardly a secret.

The dispensationalists who quote this very verse don't understand it.

 

[BobRyan]

The “gathering together unto Him” aka “rapture” is no longer a secret… It is going to happen according to the Word of the Lord (1Th 4:15a) at an undetermined time. It was a secret (mystery) kept hidden in God ….until Paul received the revelation regarding this event.

So the question becomes: What do you need or how many scripture are necessary for you to understand that this event will take place. If it is the “Word of the Lord”…. Wouldn’t one scripture be sufficient?
It really is not a matter of quantity…it is a matter of quality. And by quality I mean, how receptive you are. In other words ….are you reading what you believe ….or believing what you read. …It’s there, and once you see it, you can’t unsee it.

It is not just in 1 Thess 4:13-18 that we find the rapture...

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.​

it is also in Matt 24:29-31

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.​

And in John 14:1-3

 

[Davy]

I guess its where you wish to add some speculation to each view for pre mid post.. there is no "scriptural evidence" for any of them unless you add speculation and "what that verse really means" to it. In 1st Thes no where does it say "ever eye shall see". Taking that from Matt what 24 does not fit here. Just putting those two side by side they do not match.

Now when Christ returns the world will see and they wil not be happy. He will then set foot on the earth and gather the nations..those that just came out of the great tribulation. He then splits them sheep and goats to some He says "I never knew you" those were never saved for He said "I never knew you". I Know He knows me every angel rejoiced when He found me and He told the Father about me WOOT!

So Christ will come in the clouds the died will rise then we also changed caught up together to meet Christ in the air to be with Him forever. Some like to quote Matt 24 and how true it is regarding Christs return.. ok but what about Christ saying He is going back to His Fathers house to make us a home and that He will come back to recieve us so where He is we will be. Where He is we know and how He went we know. So WHERE is Christ? Its not Christ will be where we are <---that is not written. He made a place for us in His Fathers house so where he is (Fathers house) we will be. So when does that happen?

Thief comes and steals yet Christ is no thief yet He does come and take whats His and they never saw it for they were not ready. Our personal belief here is not scripture so be very unwise to belief that over whats written. Fact if one is not ready not watching does not believe you really think He will take them anyway? See He will come in the clouds and the dead will rise and we will go up also now "when" that happens no one knows but it will happen. So me? I am always watching always thinking of Him and everything thing I do so it shines Him. I am always ready now and I will not miss Him.

had to add the song playing now "Even So Come"

Oh come on.... do you really think you can cast doubt on the CLEAR TIMING of the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture, where Jesus was emphatic that His coming to gather His saints is AFTER... the tribulation He warned of? How in the world could that be construed to point to a mid-trib or a pre-trib timing? It cannot!