• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Has the Holy Spirit explicitly led you to keep the Sabbath?

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
9,325
2,563
55
Northeast
✟246,295.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If it was on a specific time zone it God would have stated. Our Jewish friends have been keeping the Sabbath since the time of Jesus and they were not "zapped away" and many still keep the Sabbath regardless where they live.

I'm not interested in going down this rabbit hole so we will have to agree to disagree.
I agree that if it was a specific time zone God would have told us. But I also think that if it moved around, God would have told us that, too.

Jesus and the apostles all lived around the Jerusalem area, so that's no help imo.

Jewish people have centuries of rabbinical tradition that they follow. But we're just talking about the Bible here. Or are we? Should we expand it to include human traditions?

What do you mean "zapped away"?

But it's fine if you want to stop talking about this. Peace be with you!
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
14,495
5,791
USA
✟749,979.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I agree that if it was a specific time zone God would have told us. But I also think that if it moved around, God would have told us that, too.

Jesus and the apostles all lived around the Jerusalem area, so that's no help imo.

Jewish people have centuries of rabbinical tradition that they follow. But we're just talking about the Bible here. Or are we? Should we expand it to include human traditions?

What do you mean "zapped away"?

But it's fine if you want to stop talking about this. Peace be with you!
It's not moved around anyone can enjoy the Sabbath regardless of where they live.

What I mean by zapped away, the Jewish community is still here from generation to generation all enjoying the Sabbath where they live regardless of worrying about time zones.

Take care.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
9,325
2,563
55
Northeast
✟246,295.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It's not moved around anyone can enjoy the Sabbath regardless of where they live.

What I mean by zapped away, the Jewish community is still here from generation to generation all enjoying the Sabbath where they live regardless where they live.

Take care.
Sunset moves west around the Earth. If the Sabbath is tied to local sunset, then it moves Westward around the world also. People in California start their Sabbath about 3 hours later than people in Florida. That's what I meant by "moves around".

But definitely, people can enjoy the Sabbath regardless of where they live. It doesn't matter if the Sabbath is fixed or movable. As far as I know, the Bible is basically silent.

God is all around the world. One thing I like to ponder is that if God started resting at the beginning at the earliest Sabbath and kept resting until the end of the latest Sabbath, he rested for 48 hours.
_________________

My impression is that there were still Jewish people today because God promised it. It doesn't really mean that they're good law keepers.
'As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” says the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure.'

May the Lord make his face shine on you.
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
14,495
5,791
USA
✟749,979.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Sunset moves west around the Earth. If the Sabbath is tied to local sunset, then it moves Westward around the world also. People in California start their Sabbath about 3 hours later than people in Florida. That's what I meant by "moves around".

But definitely, people can enjoy the Sabbath regardless of where they live. It doesn't matter if the Sabbath is fixed or movable. As far as I know, the Bible is basically silent.

God is all around the world. One thing I like to ponder is that if God started resting at the beginning at the earliest Sabbath and kept resting until the end of the latest Sabbath, he rested for 48 hours.
_________________

My impression is that there were still Jewish people today because God promised it. It doesn't really mean that they're good law keepers.
'As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” says the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure.'

May the Lord make his face shine on you.

You completely missed what I meant but that's okay.

God's ways is not our ways, so the way we view time is not the same way God views time. I do not subscribe that we have a God of confusion. This is another tactic to try to make something that is holy and blessed into something confusing. Not going to further respond to this subject because its a distraction from God's Truth. Take care
 
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
9,325
2,563
55
Northeast
✟246,295.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You completely missed what I meant but that's okay.

God's ways is not our ways, so the way we view time is not the same way God views time. I do not subscribe that we have a God of confusion. This is another tactic to try to make something that is holy and blessed into something confusing. Not going to further respond to this subject because its a distraction from God's Truth. Take care
(It's fine if you don't want to respond to this.)

I agree that God doesn't view time the way we do. I believe that God wants us to keep everyday holy.

imo having sunset fixed to Jerusalem is the least chaotic and confusing.

Peace be with you!
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
14,495
5,791
USA
✟749,979.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
(It's fine if you don't want to respond to this.)

I agree that God doesn't view time the way we do. I believe that God wants us to keep everyday holy.

Peace be with you!
If only you could find a scripture that say this. If God wanted us to keep everyday holy He would have said so. For me I am sticking with what God actually said.

“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God.

imo having sunset fixed to Jerusalem is the least chaotic and confusing.
I'm sure that's true for you, but this is a new man-made doctrine and not one you will find in scripture either.
 
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
9,325
2,563
55
Northeast
✟246,295.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If only you could find a scripture that say this. If God wanted us to keep everyday holy He would have said so. For me I am sticking with what God actually said.

“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God.

I'm sure that's true for you, but this is a new man-made doctrine and not one you will find in scripture either.
well, as I read it, he did tell us
"Whatever you do, in word or in deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father, through him."

I don't see that the scriptures say that the Sabbath is either fixed or movable.
 
Upvote 0

Josephus

<b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b>
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2000
3,750
313
Kerbal Space Center
✟198,643.00
Faith
Messianic
It doesn't matter if the Sabbath is fixed or movable. As far as I know, the Bible is basically silent.

Actually it's pretty specific: "and there was evening and there was morning, the 6th day." Meaning the 7th would have begun in the evening.

What is silent is the location. Hence why the ruling is wherever it is evening for you when the sun sets on the sixth day, it is therefore Sabbath, the seventh day... for you, as it is written concerning the commands of G-d "it shall be for you and for your children". When it is Sabbath for you, it will always last until there there are three stars appearing in the sky on the end of the seventh, again for you. Why three? As it is written he "made the lights... to serve as signs to mark...days...the greater light...the lesser light...also the stars."

This means even when you are in space when the sun sets and rises every 90 minutes, or above the artic circle where the sun does not set or rise for months, the "for you" still kicks in based on where you are coming from (such as if you lived below the artic circle, or if you lived in space, wherever your base of operations ie home was on Earth, when it is sabbath there is when you would observe). If there were multiple people observing sabbath in such a scenario, I would assume the ruling would base it on the location of the majority, and it would remain consistent, so that all in space or above the artic could observe it together.

Sabbath is no longer than 25 hours for any one person (usually 24 hours and 48 minutes). Anything more would be in violation of the commandment to guard it.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
9,325
2,563
55
Northeast
✟246,295.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Actually it's pretty specific: "and there was evening and there was morning, the 6th day." Meaning the 7th would have begun in the evening.

What is silent is the location. Hence why the ruling is wherever it is evening for you when the sun sets on the sixth day, it is therefore Sabbath, the seventh day... for you, as it is written concerning the commands of G-d "it shall be for you and for your children". It always last until there there are three stars appearing in the sky on the end of the seventh, again for you.

This means even when you are in space, or above the article circle, the "for you" still kicks in based on where you are coming from (such as if you lived below the artic circle, or if you lived in space, wherever your base of operations ie home was on Earth, when it is sabbath there is when you would observe). If there were multiple people observing sabbath in such a scenario, I would assume the ruling would base it on the location of the majority, and it would remain consistent, so that all in space or above the artic could observe together.

Sabbath is no longer than 25 hours for any one person (usually 24 hours and 48 minutes). Anything more would be in violation of the commandment to observe it.
That's an interesting way to look at it.

But could the same situation be read this way:
It was Sabbath for them when the sun sets in the general Jerusalem area. So it shall be for their children.
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
14,495
5,791
USA
✟749,979.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
well, as I read it, he did tell us
"Whatever you do, in word or in deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father, through him."
Giving thanks (which we should do for everything), is not the same as obeying the commandment to keep the seventh day Sabbath holy. We could apply that with anything- I am going to lie, but give thanks to God. I am going to steal, but give thanks to God. Thats a slippery slope.

We will probably need to agree to disagree. Take care.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
9,325
2,563
55
Northeast
✟246,295.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Giving thanks (which we should do for everything), is not the same as obeying the commandment to keep the seventh day Sabbath holy. We could do that with anything- I am going to lie, but give thanks to God. I am going to steal, but give thanks to God. Thats a slippery slope.

We will probably need to agree to disagree. Take care.
Hey SB, how about if we just go back to where we both agreed that God doesn't view time the way we do.

And we can both agree that we have the mind of Christ!

May the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, establish and strengthen you.
 
Upvote 0

Josephus

<b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b>
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2000
3,750
313
Kerbal Space Center
✟198,643.00
Faith
Messianic
That's an interesting way to look at it.

But could the same situation be read this way:
It was Sabbath for them when the sun sets in the general Jerusalem area. So it shall be for their children.

It could be an interesting argument to make if not for the fact that the commandment to observe the Sabbath was given at Mt Sinai, far from Jerusalem. But in stead of forcing us to rely on this logic, instead the scriptures come to help guide us to a more evidential conclusion:

Lev 23:3
There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a sabbath to the Lord.

The Jerusalem argument would require there to be something specific in the Torah to indicate that sunset is determined for all Jews based on Jerusalem.

On a more existential proof line of reasoning: do Jews observe sunset Sabbath based on Jerusalem or where they are in the world? Why would we expect this to have universally changed at any point from the wilderness onwards? This proof of "what do the Jews currently do?" stems from Deut 4:6
Observe them carefully, for this will show your wisdom and understanding to the nations, who will hear about all these decrees and say, “Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.” The nations would be wise to accept what the Jews currently do and have done for generations, as evidence of their wisdom and understanding of the decrees of G-d.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
14,495
5,791
USA
✟749,979.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Hey SB, how about if we just go back to where we both agreed that God doesn't view time the way we do.

And we can both agree that we have the mind of Christ!

May the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, establish and strengthen you.
When God reveals His will for us like He did with the commandments that He wrote and He spoke its not something we should ignore. God has revealed His will, He was very specific and very easy to understand.

People can come up with a million excuses why they don't need to obey God and its easy to find an excuse when one is looking for one.
 
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
9,325
2,563
55
Northeast
✟246,295.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It could be an interesting argument to make if not for the fact that the commandment to observe the Sabbath was given at Mt Sinai, far from Jerusalem. But in stead of forcing us to rely on this logic, instead the scriptures come to help guide us to a more evidential conclusion:

Lev 23:3
There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a sabbath to the Lord.

The Jerusalem argument would require there to be something specific in the Torah to indicate that sunset is determined for all Jews based on Jerusalem.

On a more existential proof line of reasoning: do Jews observe sunset Sabbath based on Jerusalem or where they are in the world? Why would we expect this to have universally changed at any point from the wilderness onwards? This proof of "what do the Jews currently do?" stems from Deut 4:6
Observe them carefully, for this will show your wisdom and understanding to the nations, who will hear about all these decrees and say, “Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.” The nations would be wise to accept what the Jews currently do and have done for generations, as evidence of their wisdom and understanding of the decrees of G-d.
I believe Mount Sinai is far from Jerusalem, but not far longitudinally. So sunset is basically the same time. Also, I'm using Jerusalem to mean the general Holy Land area. It's not that large, as I understand it.

And yes, the Israelites were to keep the Sabbath wherever they lived.

I agree there's nothing in the scriptures about the Sabbath being fixed to Jerusalem. But also don't see anything about the Sabbath moving West with the sunset, or where the days are supposed to "reset" (most people today use the international date line).

As I see it, the Bible was written by people who assumed that the Sun rose and set for everyone at the same time. They had no idea that it could be the middle of the day for some people in the middle of the night for others.

My impression is that the Israelites sometimes followed the law and sometimes not. Which then fits with the scripture you posted, Jews today are sometimes considered a wise nation, sometimes pitiful.

Great discussion, btw!
 
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
9,325
2,563
55
Northeast
✟246,295.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
When God reveals His will for us like He did with the commandments that He wrote and He spoke its not something we should ignore. God has revealed His will, He was very specific and very easy to understand.

People can come up with a million excuses why they don't need to obey God and its easy to find an excuse when one is looking for one.
I disagree that God was specific about how to practice the Sabbath on a spherical, rotating Earth.
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
14,495
5,791
USA
✟749,979.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I disagree that God was specific about how to practice the Sabbath on a spherical, rotating Earth.
That’s your free will, we are free believe whatever we want. If one doesn’t understand, its best to obey what you do understand instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water in my opinion.

The Sabbath commandment seems pretty easy to understand a rather specific. What about the Sabbath commandment do you think is not specific?

Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.


I believe that we have a God of love and God is not going to give us a commandment that we will be judged on, James 2:10-12 Exodus 20 Revelation 11:19 that no one knows how to keep. The Sabbath has been kept since the very beginning Genesis 2:1-3 Jesus kept the Sabbath and all of His Fathers law as our example to follow. Luke 4:16-30 Although its just a remnant now according to scripture that still keep the commandments of God. Revelation 14:12 The answers on how to obey all of God’s law are found in the scriptures and His sheep hear His voice, we know Him if we keep His commandments 1 John 2:3-5 and follow Him wherever He leads. John 10:27-28
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Josephus

<b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b>
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2000
3,750
313
Kerbal Space Center
✟198,643.00
Faith
Messianic
I... don't see anything about the Sabbath moving West with the sunset, or where the days are supposed to "reset" (most people today use the international date line).

The phrase "given you" and "stay where they are" makes all the commandments of G-d relative to your frame of reference as to wherever you are:

Ex 16:29
Bear in mind that the Lord has given you the Sabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyone is to stay where they are on the seventh day; no one is to go out.

This includes, in G-d's wisdom, being on the opposite side of the planet. Shabbat has always been reliant on one's own personal frame of reference. As it is also written "They shall not enter into my rest" meaning G-d is already there, we are simply in a position outside of that rest. And what is this rest? The very rest that is written "and on the seventh day G-d rested." The Sabbath in this world is the spiritual reality of the next. We are to work these 6 days, these 6000 years, our lives, entirely to prepare for the eternal rest we are to enter where work can not be done. As Jesus said concerning the Sabbath that was rapidly approaching (for which he was accused of violating the rabbinic prohibitions to guard doing work in the hours before Sabbath):

John9:4
As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work.

Good discussion. But I do hope that with the commandments of G-d being clearly relative in application, that an international date line is not needed. And if there was a need, such as the declaration of the New Moon, for the calendar day, then yes it would be from the Sanhedrin in Jerusalem. But this only concerns the start of the new year.

G-d wrote the Torah and gave it to men who may not have known the earth was round, but the author of all scripture, He himself, knows the earth is round, since he made it. We can rely on his word to be just as efficient at guiding our lives today as it was then.
 
Upvote 0

guevaraj

an oil seller in the story of the ten virgins
Site Supporter
Mar 31, 2019
2,391
189
54
South Bend, IN
Visit site
✟733,692.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
Hi guevaraj my man, I thought, based on our conversation here, that the key idea in your thinking was that the Sabbath started at sunset in Jerusalem. Regardless of where one lived in the world, that was the fixed time. Are different Sabbaths true? Of course we can use the international date line for business purposes. And God may have had a hand in setting it up where it is. But my impression was that the IDL was irrelevant when calculating the Sabbath using your method. If I remember right, we basically started with sunset in Jerusalem and then found the location of Eden. It was the place where the sun rises at the same time that the sun sets in Jerusalem throughout the year.
Brother, Hebrews 3 and 4 builds up my faith in His word. It shows me that God is real and separate from the errors of the humans who were close to Him. The errors of Judaism strengthen my faith in His word, delivered faithfully despite the misunderstanding by the humans He used to give us His message. The fact that Judaism is clueless about God's definition of a day in Genesis being from morning to morning and that they do not like where the site of the International Date Line (IDL) is found, because they think incorrectly that a Sabbath in Jerusalem is a day of the week this late in our history, shows that God has been with us since the beginning. It shows that God's word does not originate in humans, the fact that He is able to correct this late in our history through His word from the beginning.

It was by faith that Enoch was taken up to heaven without dying—“he disappeared, because God took him.” For before he was taken up, he was known as a person who pleased God. And it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him. (Hebrews 11:5-6 NLT)​

The book of Genesis is where my understanding of Hebrews 3 and 4 began. "Evening" and "morning" do not mean "night" and "day"! God defined "day" and "night" in the prior sentence and chose not to use those defined words when He used other words at the end of the first day, because He is saying something different than what Joshua assumed based on the Sabbath that God gave in the Promised Land that falls earlier and is not the seventh day of the week in the Promised Land.

Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. Then he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day” and the darkness “night.” And evening passed and morning came, marking the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 NLT)​

God chose not to say "night" and "day" when He said "evening" and "morning", which He uses differently from "night" and "day" in the following passage. God is not saying below what people have assumed above with the word "evening", because He chose to say something else above using other words than "night" and "day". God does not use "evening" below, the way people use it above. He is not saying from the "night" of the ninth day of the month to the "night" of the tenth as He defined those words above to mean what He chose not to say using different words that He uses below differently from how people use them above. The way God uses "evening" below helps us understand what He means above. He means above that a "night" ends the first day from "evening to morning", because the days of the week begin with "morning to evening", which God called "day". The same word above as "evening" is translated below as "sundown".

This will be a Sabbath day of complete rest for you, and on that day you must deny yourselves. This day of rest will begin at sundown on the ninth day of the month and extend until sundown on the tenth day.” (Leviticus 23:32 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
Upvote 0

JLB777

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2012
5,905
1,258
✟449,111.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
These are your words, not the Words of our Creator and Savior.


Exodus 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God.
Isaiah 58:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord honorable,
Isaiah 66:23 And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,
says the Lord.


All you quote is from the Old Covenant. If you believe Jesus Christ is not the Messiah, and that you are still under the law and of Moses, then by all means

Me personally, I am in Christ, and am part of the New Covenant.


Here is what the Spirit of Jesus Christ instructed us through His Apostle Paul.


having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Colossians 2:14-17


If believe you are supposed to observe the Sabbath according to the law of Moses then go for it.


Please show us where Jesus Christ or any writers of the New Testament instructed the Church as to how to observe the Sabbath under the New Covenant.



JLB
 
Upvote 0

JLB777

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2012
5,905
1,258
✟449,111.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The work of Jesus is not secular, sad to see people take the side of the Pharisees who wrongly accused Jesus of breaking the Sabbath and the commandment of God. Scripture tells us clearly that Jesus never sinned.

1 Peter 2:21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: 22 “Who committed no sin,
Nor was deceit found in His mouth”;

John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Jesus is the example to follow according to clear scripture who kept the Sabbath and all of the commandments as our example. Luke 4:16-22


Please show us where Jesus Christ or any writers of the New Testament instructed the Church as to how to observe the Sabbath under the New Covenant.
 
Upvote 0