SDA Basic Belief 27: God Will Give the Earth to Satan’s Angels

[Adventist Dissident]

here is a graphic illustration to help clarify the retrun of the Lord
list what happens as you understand it

Correct view.
1. saints taken to heaven -advent/rapture
2. marriage supper of the lamb
3. tribulation - 144000
4. Christ returns to rule the earth-
fullfils the sabbath promise

 

[Adventist Dissident]

• • 

 

[BobRyan]

@ewq1938 @BobRyan

ewq1938 said: ↑
So it is true you believe in 3 comings?

1st coming at incarnation.
2nd coming or appearing to take the saved to heaven.
3rd coming to return to the Earth with everyone.

Yes?

BobRyan said: ↑

The "appearing" is not a coming to Earth rather He raptures the saints and destroys the wicked. Even evangelicals do not call the rapture event "the second coming" so it is not "unheard of" to call it "appearing" as the Bible does... but you can choose to call Rev 19 "second coming" and Rev 20-21 "Third coming" if you wish.


He asked if you see three comings. So do you?

Please point out the coming in Rev. 20-21.

1. The first question is answered in this list,

1. 1st coming at incarnation.
2. appearing of Christ to rapture the saints to heaven.
3. 2nd coming to return to the Earth with everyone, reign and rule on Earth.

Those who believe in the rapture (and SDAs do believe in the rapture) have this sequence.

1. 1st coming at incarnation.
2. the appearing to rapture the saints to heaven.
3. Christ's coming to return to the Earth with everyone to reign and rule on Earth.


The Bible says the 1000 years happens between #2 and #3 in that sequence. Hence the "desolate Earth" statements in Jer 4 as noted previously.



- where only two of them have "coming". So although "second coming" is not in the Bible - we do see that He comes to Earth to live here - two times - when we look at those three statements at the top of your post above.

2. The second question is not even a question for the vast majority of Christians today when it comes to the Holy City. Many believe in some sort of millennial reign of Christ - they all agree that the Holy City comes down out of heaven after the 1000 years.

Reading Rev 20 -- the fact that the saints are in the holy city shows up in Rev 20:7-9

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

1. The first question is answered in this list,

1. 1st coming at incarnation.
2. appearing of Christ to rapture the saints to heaven.
3. 2nd coming to return to the Earth with everyone, reign and rule on Earth.

Those who believe in the rapture (and SDAs do believe in the rapture) have this sequence.

1. 1st coming at incarnation.
2. the appearing to rapture the saints to heaven.
3. Christ's coming to return to the Earth with everyone to reign and rule on Earth.


The Bible says the 1000 years happens between #2 and #3 in that sequence. Hence the "desolate Earth" statements in Jer 4 as noted previously.



- where only two of them have "coming". So although "second coming" is not in the Bible - we do see that He comes to Earth to live here - two times - when we look at those three statements at the top of your post above.

2. The second question is not even a question for the vast majority of Christians today when it comes to the Holy City. Many believe in some sort of millennial reign of Christ - they all agree that the Holy City comes down out of heaven after the 1000 years.

Reading Rev 20 -- the fact that the saints are in the holy city shows up in Rev 20:7-9

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

bob
could you tell me about the nations in those passages. where do they come from in the new heaven and new earth

 

[tall73]

tall73 said: ↑

Please point out the coming in Rev. 20-21.

The second question is not even a question for the vast majority of Christians today when it comes to the Holy City. Many believe in some sort of millennial reign of Christ - they all agree that the Holy City comes down out of heaven after the 1000 years.

Reading Rev 20 -- the fact that the saints are in the holy city shows up in Rev 20:7-9

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

I note you did not show the coming of Jesus and the saints in Revelation 20-21. You just point to the fact that they are already there--which matches @icedragon101 's claim. .

However, you also changed what was presented in Scripture.

So let's look at what it says:

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
Rev 20:8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.

Satan is released from his prison. He then goes to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth.

It has been asked multiple times in the thread where those nations came from. So, where did they come from?

These nations, led by Satan who deceived them, march across the earth and surround the camp of the saints:

Rev 20:9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,
Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


It is not until after the nations surrounding the city are destroyed, and Satan thrown into the lake of fire that we see the resurrection of the dead, and the great white throne judgment. So who are the nations that Satan deceives here?


Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


And it is not until after this that we have the new heavens, new earth, and the new Jerusalem:

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

 

[BobRyan]

I note you did not show the coming of Jesus and the saints in Revelation 20-21

Will the thousand years reign be in heaven or earth? - BibleAsk.

Gen 1:1 summarizes - and the rest of the chapter expands on the details
Rev 20 summarizes and then expands on the details.

Revelation is not always sequential so we have second coming event in Rev 6, at the end of Rev 14, and in Rev 19…

Rev 20: 7 says this is what happens AFTER the 1000 years are completed
Vs 7 -9 describes the punishment of the wicked – including the devil
Vs 11-15 describes judgment of the wicked as it relates to lake of fire (Similar to Gen 1 vs Gen 2 added detail)

John 5 says that it is at Christ's coming that both the wicked and the righteous are raised to life.
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Matt 25 shows the same thing - the wicked are put into the lake of fire at the coming of Christ - which in Rev 20 the wicked raised after the 1000 year millennium.

31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You as a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it for one of the least of these brothers or sisters of Mine, you did it for Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’

At His appearing -- only the saved/righteous are raised to life - as we see in Matt 24, in 1 Thess 4:13-18

That is the Rev 19 appearing of Christ. Where as John says in John 14:1-3 -- Jesus takes us to His Father's house - WHERE He has prepared a place for the saints. A great many evangelicals know this to be the case when it comes to the rapture. SDAs know it as well. No news there.

As Rev 20 points out - the wicked do not come to life until AFTER the 1000 years have completed.

The New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven - in Rev 21 is after the 1000 years have completed as all will admit.

The summary statement in Rev 20:8-9 shows the saints on Earth in that city and then the wicked destroyed in the lake of fire.

The rest of Rev 20 expands on that summary - and gives more detail.

==================

It is hard for me to understand how this did not appear clear to you as an Adventist pastor. And if indeed as a pastor you rejected this teaching as well as the many others you have objected to so far - then I would imagine you had to be delighted to leave the Adventists and join some other group closer to your view -- no hard feelings, just parting company etc.

 

[tall73]

As Rev 20 points out - the wicked do not come to life until AFTER the 1000 years have completed.

The New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven - in Rev 21 is after the 1000 years have completed as all will admit.

The summary statement in Rev 20:8-9 shows the saints on Earth in that city and then the wicked destroyed in the lake of fire.

It does not say they are in the new Jerusalem in Rev. 20:8-9. The New Jerusalem is only referenced as coming down in connection with the new heavens and new earth in chapter 21.

And 20:7-9 describes satan deceiving nations which you claim are not there. This is prior to the resurrection described later in the chapter.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

All of this happens before a resurrection of the wicked. So where did the nations come from?

After this we see the resurrection, as part of the Great White Throne judgment:

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

And after that we see a new heaven and a new earth, which is where the New Jerusalem comes in:

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

 

[BobRyan]

It does not say they are in the new Jerusalem in Rev. 20:8-9.

It says (as you note) that the saints are in the "camp of the saints". They are in "the beloved city" and in Rev 21 that is called the new Jerusalem.

And 20:7-9 describes satan deceiving nations which is after the resurrection of the wicked since no wicked survive past Rev 19 "the rest were killed" statement..

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband

 

[tall73]

It says (as you note) that the saints are in the "camp of the saints". They are in "the beloved city" and in Rev 21 that is called the new Jerusalem.

You just conflated two different things. Chapter 20 describes satan's activities on the old earth. It references the camp of the saints in the beloved city. But that beloved city is in the old earth, not the new earth. And the New Jerusalem is only seen coming down once the new earth is introduced.

And 20:7-9 describes satan deceiving nations which is after the resurrection of the wicked since no wicked survive past Rev 19 "the rest were killed" statement..

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband

You are skipping sections and conflating.

The beloved city is in the old earth, not the new. Satan leads the nations BEFORE the resurrection, described later.

The New Jerusalem does not come down until the new earth.


Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

All of the above happens BEFORE the resurrection. So you still need to explain the nations.


Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


All of the above happens BEFORE the new earth and the New Jerusalem enter in:

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


Why did you skip sections, and conflate sections instead of addressing what it says?

 

[tall73]

At His appearing -- only the saved/righteous are raised to life - as we see in Matt 24, in 1 Thess 4:13-18

That is the Rev 19 appearing of Christ.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Bob, who does it say are raised here?

And who are raised here?

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

And Bob, why does verse 15 say whosoever was NOT found written in the book of life was cast into the lake?

 

[Dale]

The "appearing" is not a coming to Earth rather He raptures the saints and destroys the wicked. Even evangelicals do not call the rapture event "the second coming" so it is not "unheard of" to call it "appearing" as the Bible does... but you can choose to call Rev 19 "second coming" and Rev 20-21 "Third coming" if you wish.

Bob,
Where I live, Christians who believe in a "rapture" tell me that "you have to split the Second Coming into the Rapture and then the Second Coming."

The result is that Christ would come privately, secretly, for the saved in a "rapture," then later come publicly for everyone else, the Second Coming.

To me, all they have done is to admit that there is no verse anywhere in the New Testament, or anywhere else, that clearly describes a rapture. All the rapturists, or Dispensationalists, have done is misinterpret verses about the Second Coming.

As I have pointed out in the past, the people who believe in a "rapture" have popularized the image of crumbled clothes on the sidewalk and so forth. There is no such image in the Bible. That's not surprising because there is no "rapture" in the Bible, at least not separate from the Second Coming.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Bob,
Where I live, Christians who believe in a "rapture" tell me that "you have to split the Second Coming into the Rapture and then the Second Coming."

The result is that Christ would come privately, secretly, for the saved in a "rapture," then later come publicly for everyone else, the Second Coming.

To me, all they have done is to admit that there is no verse anywhere in the New Testament, or anywhere else, that clearly describes a rapture. All the rapturists, or Dispensationalists, have done is misinterpret verses about the Second Coming.

As I have pointed out in the past, the people who believe in a "rapture" have popularized the image of crumbled clothes on the sidewalk and so forth. There is no such image in the Bible. That's not surprising because there is no "rapture" in the Bible, at least not separate from the Second Coming.

The Question you must ask yourself is what do you believe is the 2nd coming

A. The part where we go to heaven (Marriage Supper of the Lamb).(if A is the 2nd coming, Then B the 3rd coming)
or
B. The part where Christ Rules the earth. (if B is the 2nd coming then A is called something else Rapture/Advent/Appearing)

i used think exactly like this, but upon further review I find the concept of the part where we go to the marriage supper of the lamb (rapture/advent) valid. The problem is most people confuse the part where we go to (A) the marriage supper of the Lamb, with (B) the part where Christ rules the earth.

The Term Rapture was coined to define the difference between when Christ rules the earth and where we go to heaven.

Historical Fact. The Millerites and the vairous branches of the Miller/Advent movement were responsible for the confusion between the Advent and the 1000 year regin on the Earth. Historically the 2nd coming was when Christ ruled the earth and the SABBATH was the sign & promise of the 1k regin. The confusion came when the Bible Society's began printing bibles and people started realizing there was a part where the church went to heaven @ the marriage supper of the Lamb. this had been forgotten. When Miller came along he forced the issue of the return of the Lord and confused the 2 ideas.

 

[tall73]

@BobRyan


I don't think it will surprise anyone to find out that your changing of the order and details presented in Scripture happen to match up with the account given by Ellen White in the Great Controversy:

The Great Controversy, by Ellen G. White. Chapter 42: The Controversy Ended

The Scriptures indicate the New Jerusalem comes down at the time of the New Heavens and New earth, when the first heaven and first earth had passed away.

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Ellen White says differently:

As the New Jerusalem, in its dazzling splendor, comes down out of heaven, it rests upon the place purified and made ready to receive it, and Christ, with His people and the angels, enters the Holy City. {GC 662.3}

Now Satan prepares for a last mighty struggle for the supremacy. While deprived of his power and cut off from his work of deception, the prince of evil was miserable and dejected; but as the wicked dead are raised and he sees the vast multitudes upon his side, his hopes revive, and he determines not to yield the great controversy. He will marshal all the armies of the lost under his banner and through them endeavor to execute his plans. The wicked are Satan's captives. In rejecting Christ they have accepted the rule of the rebel leader. They are ready to receive his suggestions and to do his bidding. Yet, true to his early cunning, he does not acknowledge himself to be Satan. He claims to be the prince who is the rightful owner of the world and whose inheritance has been unlawfully wrested from him. He represents himself to his deluded subjects as a redeemer, assuring them that his power has brought them forth from their graves and that he is about to rescue them from the most cruel tyranny. The presence of Christ having been removed, Satan works wonders to support his claims. He makes the weak strong and inspires all with his own spirit and energy. He proposes to lead them against the camp of the saints and to take possession of the City of God. With fiendish exultation he points to the unnumbered millions who have been raised from the dead and declares that as their leader he is well able to overthrow the city and regain his throne and his kingdom. [664] {GC 663.1}

 

[BobRyan]

@BobRyan
I don't think it will surprise anyone to find out that your changing of the order and details presented in Scripture happen to match up with the account given by Ellen White

1. I don't think it will surprise anyone here to learn that I am a Seventh-day Adventist.
2. I don't think it will surprise anyone here to learn that I am not the one pulling Ellen White into each of these threads - but that you do it with some regularity.

So then here is a good example of a post by me demonstrating my own practice when it comes to scripture...

It says (as you note) that the saints are in the "camp of the saints". They are in "the beloved city" and in Rev 21 that is called the new Jerusalem.

And 20:7-9 describes satan deceiving nations which is after the resurrection of the wicked since no wicked survive past Rev 19 "the rest were killed" statement..

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband

Your response is of the form "Bob I am surprised that you as a Seventh-day Adventist - hold to a POV in Rev 20 that is consistent with Seventh-day Adventist's POV".

The Scriptures indicate the New Jerusalem comes down at the time of the New Heavens and New earth, when the first heaven and first earth had passed away.

No doubt that happens as well.

 

[BobRyan]

The Question you must ask yourself is what do you believe is the 2nd coming

A. The part where we go to heaven (Marriage Supper of the Lamb). (is this the 2nd coming)
or
B. The part where Christ Rules the earth. (if A is the 2nd coming, Then this the 3rd coming)

i used think exactly like this, but upon further review I find the concept of the part where we go to the marriage supper of the lamb (rapture/advent) valid. The problem is most people confuse the part where we go to (A) the marriage supper of the Lamb, with (B) the part where Christ rules the earth.

Agreed.

William Miller used the "second coming" term the way his contemporaries did - which was the "B" option you post above -- and Miller's "new insight" was that this was not after the 1000 years but was to be the start of it. Pre-mill.

As Walter Martin points out in his book "Kingdom of the Cults" this pre-mill second coming idea was the most "new" thing about that Millerite movement.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob,
Where I live, Christians who believe in a "rapture" tell me that "you have to split the Second Coming into the Rapture and then the Second Coming."

I am ok with that.. I call the rapture the "appearing" and "the return" when Christ "comes again" to receive us to Himself John 14:1-3

But I find that the Bible teaches that later - 1000 years after that - is the return of Christ to Earth to reign...

The result is that Christ would come privately, secretly, for the saved in a "rapture," then later come publicly for everyone else, the Second Coming.

Some dispensationalists believe in a secret rapture , others believe in a rapture that is not secret but still think it happens 3.5 years or 7 years before the second coming event where Christ comes to Earth to reign.

To me, all they have done is to admit that there is no verse anywhere in the New Testament, or anywhere else, that clearly describes a rapture.

I see the rapture described in John 14:1-3, in 1 Thess 4:13-18 and in Matt 24:29-31. But none of those texts say it is secret.

There is no such image in the Bible. That's not surprising because there is no "rapture" in the Bible, at least not separate from the Second Coming.

If you put the rapture at the second coming - then all the saints are in heaven with Christ for the 1000 year millennium. As far as I know Seventh-day Adventists are the only ones that accept that view in the Bible.

 

[tall73]

1. I don't think it will surprise anyone here to learn that I am a Seventh-day Adventist.
2. I don't think it will surprise anyone here to learn that I am not the one pulling Ellen White into each of these threads - but that you do it with some regularity.

Of course you are bringing Ellen White into it, because you are taking her account of events instead of what Scripture says. The only reason we have to point it out is so people will understand why you will look at the plain statement that the New Jerusalem descends only at the new heaven and new earth, after the old earth has passed away, but conclude that it in fact comes down earlier.

So then here is a good example of a post by me demonstrating my own practice when it comes to scripture...

Your response is of the form "Bob I am surprised that you as a Seventh-day Adventist - hold to a POV in Rev 20 that is consistent with Seventh-day Adventist's POV".

I said I am NOT surprised that you took the view of Ellen White, which is the Adventist view, even when it says something different than the text.

But you should not do that. You should go with what the text says.

The text says:

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

But you don't go with that, you go with what Ellen White says. that it came down earlier, when the old earth was still present.

And you did the same with the statement by Ellen White that the resurrection of the wicked happens before they surround the city, but in fact the resurrection happens after that, and after Satan is cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
Rev 20:8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,
Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


Nor did you address this:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Bob, who does it say are raised here?

And who are raised here?

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

And Bob, why does verse 15 say whosoever was NOT found written in the book of life was cast into the lake?

 

[ChetSinger]

@BobRyan


I don't think it will surprise anyone to find out that your changing of the order and details presented in Scripture happen to match up with the account given by Ellen White in the Great Controversy:

The Great Controversy, by Ellen G. White. Chapter 42: The Controversy Ended

The Scriptures indicate the New Jerusalem comes down at the time of the New Heavens and New earth, when the first heaven and first earth had passed away.

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Ellen White says differently:

As the New Jerusalem, in its dazzling splendor, comes down out of heaven, it rests upon the place purified and made ready to receive it, and Christ, with His people and the angels, enters the Holy City. {GC 662.3}

Now Satan prepares for a last mighty struggle for the supremacy. While deprived of his power and cut off from his work of deception, the prince of evil was miserable and dejected; but as the wicked dead are raised and he sees the vast multitudes upon his side, his hopes revive, and he determines not to yield the great controversy. He will marshal all the armies of the lost under his banner and through them endeavor to execute his plans. The wicked are Satan's captives. In rejecting Christ they have accepted the rule of the rebel leader. They are ready to receive his suggestions and to do his bidding. Yet, true to his early cunning, he does not acknowledge himself to be Satan. He claims to be the prince who is the rightful owner of the world and whose inheritance has been unlawfully wrested from him. He represents himself to his deluded subjects as a redeemer, assuring them that his power has brought them forth from their graves and that he is about to rescue them from the most cruel tyranny. The presence of Christ having been removed, Satan works wonders to support his claims. He makes the weak strong and inspires all with his own spirit and energy. He proposes to lead them against the camp of the saints and to take possession of the City of God. With fiendish exultation he points to the unnumbered millions who have been raised from the dead and declares that as their leader he is well able to overthrow the city and regain his throne and his kingdom. [664] {GC 663.1}

Thanks for this. I had no idea. This is an error so bad it flunks even Resurrection 101. She had no clue.

Revelation 21 and 22 describe the dawn of the next age. The devil has already been done away with. I thought every church understood that.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Agreed.

William Miller used the "second coming" term the way his contemporaries did - which was the "B" opction you post above -- and Miller's "new insight" was that this was not after the 1000 years but was to be the start of it. Pre-mill.

As Walter Martin points out in his book "Kingdom of the Cults" this pre-mill second coming idea was the most "new" thing about that Millerite movement.

you are forgetting the Accession Robes.

 

[Davy]

“Soul” does not designate a part of human nature independent of the body, but the totality of the person as a living being (Gen. 2:7). In fact, “soul” is another way of saying “person” or “human being.” The Lord said, “The soul [nephesh, person] who sins is the one who will die” (Eze. 8:4). The church must contend “as one man [psuche, person] for the faith” (Phil. 1:27).

The “soul,” as a human being, is fundamentally a self, an individual who can in fact die. “Soul” in the Old Testament refers not only to a living person (Gen. 2:7), but also to a dead person (Num. 5:2; Lev. 21:11).

That idea goes back to the false theory that we don't have a 'soul'. Thank God that He did not leave Genesis 2:7 to be the final authority about how He created us in 3 parts, a soul, a spirit, and a flesh body.

In Matthew 10:28, Lord Jesus said to not fear those who can kill our body (flesh), but NOT our soul. So whoosh... goes that false 'we don't have a soul' tradition of the Jews right out the window!

And the idea that our soul means just an outward manifestation of one living with a flesh body upon this earth totally scraps all Bible Scripture about our spirit that continues to have life even after our flesh dies! And there's a whole lot of Bible Scripture about that! No wonder Jewish tradition believes in the false doctrine of 'soul sleep', because they believe the soul DIES with the flesh!