What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[misput]

Contraire. . .

He is referring to salvation in Romans 9:19, Romans 9:23-24, Romans 9:27, Romans 9:30-32.

Yes, collective salvation. I was primarily addressing the dilemma over Jacob, Esau and Pharoah.

 

[misput]

You sound like a democrat media guy putting on the spin.

Paul speaking of believers collectively is addressing a group of individuals so the point is moot.

Romans 9 is also irrelevant because the issue you are spinning is addressed in Romans 8.

This is funny, I am basically agreeing with you about Calvinism and you do not recognize it.

 

[RickReads]

This is funny, I am basically agreeing with you about Calvinism and you do not recognize it.

I wasn't talking about Calvinism. I was talking about Predestination.

 

[Clare73]

Yes, collective salvation. I was primarily addressing the dilemma over Jacob, Esau and Pharoah.

Nope. . .there is no such thing in Scripture as "collective" salvation.

Salvation is only by individual faith in the Promise (Jesus Christ) or by individual faith in and trust on the person and atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," by faith declared righteous (justified) with the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:20-21), just as Abraham's faith was credited/imputed to him as righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3).

 

[misput]

I wasn't talking about Calvinism. I was talking about Predestination.

Never mind.

 

[misput]

Nope. . .there is no such thing in Scripture as "collective" salvation.

Salvation is only by individual faith in the Promise (Jesus Christ) or by individual faith in and trust on the person and atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," by faith declared righteous (justified) with the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:20-21), just as Abraham's faith was credited/imputed to him as righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3).

Sorry, you do not understand.

 

[RickReads]

Never mind.

If I understood you correctly, you believe God only predestinates events. That puts you and Clare in agreement.

Does that sting a little?

 

[misput]

If I understood you correctly, you believe God only predestinates events. That puts you and Clare in agreement.

Does that sting a little?

You cannot tell by Clare and my post to each other that we do not agree? What wave link are you on?!!!

 

[RickReads]

You cannot tell by Clare and my post to each other that we do not agree? What wave link are you on?!!!

I`m pretty dumb. Can you maybe clarify your predestination position if I misunderstand it?

 

[Clare73]

If I understood you correctly, you believe God only predestinates events. That puts you and Clare in agreement.

Does that sting a little?

Do I think God predestinates only events, or that God predestinates events?

God elects to predestined events.

I'm not real familiar with the predestined thing.

 

[RickReads]

Do I think God predestinates only events, or that God predestinates events?

I`m not sure.

 

[Clare73]

I`m not sure.

I see things in terms of election.

I don't think of the consequences of faith (salvation) as a "predestined" event, anymore than the consequences of gravity being a "predestined" event.

Help me out here, if you can.

 

[RickReads]

I see things in terms of election.

I don't think of the consequences of faith (salvation) as a "predestined" event, anymore than the consequences of gravity being a predestined event.

Help me out here.

Romans 8

 

[RickReads]

I see things in terms of election.

I don't think of the consequences of faith (salvation) as a "predestined" event, anymore than the consequences of gravity being a "predestined" event.

Help me out here, if you can.

29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: 30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


All this is past tense as God looks at a believer covered by the Blood.

 

[misput]

I`m pretty dumb. Can you maybe clarify your predestination position if I misunderstand it?

God clearly predestines events, primarily concerning Christ. He does not predestine individual salvation. He stands at the door and knocks but it is up to us whether to let Him in or not. Whosoever believes, not whosoever He chooses.

 

[RickReads]

God clearly predestines events, primarily concerning Christ. He does not predestine individual salvation. He stands at the door and knocks but it is up to us whether to let Him in or not. Whosoever believes, not whosoever He chooses.

Yes and so far as I know you and Clare are on the same page.

 

[Clare73]

29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: 30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

All this is past tense as God looks at a believer covered by the Blood.

Your text has "foreordained" where my text has "predestined."

Romans 8 would be an example of my understanding. . .predestined to the outcome of an event; i.e., to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, which seems to be pretty much the same thing as elected (chosen) for salvation, the outcome of which is the same.

How do you see it? Are you Arminian?

 

[Clare73]

Yes and so far as I know you and Clare are on the same page.

Yes and no.

We choose to let him in because he has transformed our disposition (which governs our will) to prefer him, and so we freely choose, without external force or constraint, what we prefer. . .and which is the operation of free will.

Where we differ is in election, regarding whose dispositions of unregenerate man God chooses to change by regeneration, which change gives them to prefer God's will.

Salvation is the Lord's! . . .Man must have nothing about which he could boast.

 

[RickReads]

Yes and no.

We choose to let him in because he has transformed our disposition (which governs our will) to prefer him, and so we freely choose, without external force or constraint, what we prefer. . .and which is the operation of free will.

Where we differ is in election, regarding whose dispositions of unregenerate man God chooses to change by regeneration, which change gives them to prefer God's will.

Salvation is the Lord's! . . .Man must have nothing about which he could boast.

Refresh me on your view of the election. Especially in light of Romans 8:29

 

[RickReads]

Your text has "foreordained" where my text has "predestined."

Romans 8 would be an example of my understanding. . .predestined to the outcome of an event; i.e., to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, which seems to be pretty much the same thing as elected (chosen) for salvation, the outcome of which is the same.

How do you see it? Are you Arminian?

I allow the term as an extra-biblical descriptive but I`m actually a Messianiac