Is There Mercy Beyond The Grave?

[Jeff Saunders]

Wrong! Show me in the OT where Jesus said to those then living "no man comes to the Father but through me?” Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't they under the Old Covenant? Didn't Jesus initiate a New Covenant." So explain to me how those under the old covenant get placed under the new covenant.

So you do believe that there are multiple paths to the Father!

 

[Der Alte]

So you do believe that there are multiple paths to the Father!

NO! I believe there are two covenants, as I said, unless you can show me scripture which retroactively places those who prior to the advent of Jesus, who were under the Old Covenant somehow, under the New Covenant. Read what I post and address that not some tangent you want to argue about.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

NO! I believe there are two covenants, as I said, unless you can show me scripture which retroactively places those who prior to the advent of Jesus, who were under the Old Covenant somehow, under the New Covenant. Read what I post and address that not some tangent you want to argue about.

It’s not a tangent, you are the one who throws scripture out with your understanding I am doing the same. Jesus said “ no man comes to the Father but by me” and you are telling me that you can get to the Father by the old covenant, so you must believe in multiple paths to the Father. I believe that all people from Adam ( who was under a whole other covenant) to the last person born must accept Jesus or he is made out to be a liar.

 

[Der Alte]

It’s not a tangent, you are the one who throws scripture out with your understanding I am doing the same. Jesus said “ no man comes to the Father but by me” and you are telling me that you can get to the Father by the old covenant, so you must believe in multiple paths to the Father. I believe that all people from Adam ( who was under a whole other covenant) to the last person born must accept Jesus or he is made out to be a liar.

Well I guess I will have to scratch you off of my Christmas list. You just accused me of saying something I did NOT say. I.e. "you are telling me that you can get to the Father by the old covenant." I did NOT say that! Since you can't read and comprehend what I say and insist on making false accusations, Bye.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

NO! I believe there are two covenants, as I said, unless you can show me scripture which retroactively places those who prior to the advent of Jesus, who were under the Old Covenant somehow, under the New Covenant. Read what I post and address that not some tangent you want to argue about.

I think the whole point of Hebrews was to show that the old covenant could save no one . Heb 10:4 For the blood of bulls and goats can not take away sin. God covered over there sin until Jesus that is the whole point of Hebrews. If they got to the Father under the old covenant there would be no need for a new one.

 

[wendykvw]

How do those who are dead live in the spirit? Are there any other vss. which support your understanding of this vs?

“Then shall the dust [out of which God made man’s body] return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return to God Who gave it.” Ecc 12:7

 

[Der Alte]

“Then shall the dust [out of which God made man’s body] return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return to God Who gave it.” Ecc 12:7

Returns to God doesn't sound like eternal life to me.

 

[RickReads]

So are you saying that the infinite God is contained in a book and if it’s not in the book it’s not real?

Are you expecting me to take this question seriously?

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 

[RickReads]

So are you saying that the infinite God is contained in a book and if it’s not in the book it’s not real?

What happened to the guy from post 25?

You change your position a lot?

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Are you expecting me to take this question seriously?

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

All I am saying is that God can’t be contained in a book . The Bible was written so we may know God . We can have the whole Bible memorized but if it doesn’t point to who God is we are doing the same things that the Jews did they knew the OT very well but did not know God, they killed God on the cross. Jesus said that you think you get life from the scriptures , no life is in me. So knowing words on a page do us no good if they are not pointing to who God really is.Look at Enoch He did not have the Bible but he knew God so well that he was take up into heaven and did not die. So I think God is bigger than our Bible and that is not another gospel. If the Bible doesn’t point us to who God really is it does no good.

 

[RickReads]

All I am saying is that God can’t be contained in a book . The Bible was written so we may know God . We can have the whole Bible memorized but if it doesn’t point to who God is we are doing the same things that the Jews did they knew the OT very well but did not know God, they killed God on the cross. Jesus said that you think you get life from the scriptures , no life is in me. So knowing words on a page do us no good if they are not pointing to who God really is.Look at Enoch He did not have the Bible but he knew God so well that he was take up into heaven and did not die. So I think God is bigger than our Bible and that is not another gospel. If the Bible doesn’t point us to who God really is it does no good.

So your theory is that believing the gospel isn't good enough.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

So your theory is that believing the gospel isn't good enough.

No not at all. I am saying that there is more to God than the Bible can contain. That’s why John 21:25 And there are many other things that Jesus also did, which were they written down one by one , I think the cosmos itself would not contain the books that would be written. To me this is showing that not everything that could have been written was , God gave us what we needed to follow him it’s not meant to be an exhausted list of who God is. So we can learn about who God is from himself that’s why scripture can say Heb 8:10 I will put my laws on there minds and will write them on there hearts, God himself can show us who he is by the Spirit. That’s why it’s a relationship not a academic study.

 

[RickReads]

No not at all. I am saying that there is more to God than the Bible can contain. That’s why John 21:25 And there are many other things that Jesus also did, which were they written down one by one , I think the cosmos itself would not contain the books that would be written. To me this is showing that not everything that could have been written was , God gave us what we needed to follow him it’s not meant to be an exhausted list of who God is. So we can learn about who God is from himself that’s why scripture can say Heb 8:10 I will put my laws on there minds and will write them on there hearts, God himself can show us who he is by the Spirit. That’s why it’s a relationship not a academic study.

I`m pretty sure everybody already knows the Bible isn't a complete book of information. The thing that I think about is the fact that I don't have faith in other so-called sources of information.

Speculation is ok as long as the difference is understood.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I`m pretty sure everybody already knows the Bible isn't a complete book of information. The thing that I think about is the fact that I don't have faith in other so-called sources of information.I guess to me is I see in this forum some people who do not accept anything unless you can chapter and verses it , while I see that we can have knowledge about God that is true from sources that are outside the Bible. The school I went to had a saying “ all truth is Gods truth”

Speculation is ok as long as the difference is understood.

 

[wendykvw]

Returns to God doesn't sound like eternal life to me.

Really. Shouldn't eternal life be found in the eternal God?

 

[Der Alte]

Really. Shouldn't eternal life be found in the eternal God?

No problem, cite me some scripture please.

 

[SkyWriting]

I do not believe that there is mercy beyond the grave. I would like to see the primary, clearest verses which proponents of Universal Reconciliation [UR] believe support their beliefs.
Here are three vss. which I believe totally refute UR.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Where is a verse where Jesus, Himself, is speaking and says "I now know you, welcome to my kingdom." or words to that effect?
More vss. where Jesus, Himself, speaking

John 3:15-18
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Matthew 25:46
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

​

There is mercy in that Hell and Death are both dissolved in the Lake of Fire.
So yes.

 

[Der Alte]

So yes. There is mercy in that Hell and Death are both dissolved in the Lake of Fire.

Perhaps.
…..Rev 20:14 does say death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life; it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
If “hell” refers to the grave, graves are empty holes. Empty cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
Since neither death nor hell could/did die a first death they can’t die a second death.
But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which are sentient beings and can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

My name for these two sentient beings are “the angel of death” and “the demon of hell.” Feel free to call them whatever you want. They are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.

 

[leafchomper100]

I do not believe that there is mercy beyond the grave.

You are right there is nothing in scripture that speaks about mercy beyond the grave or post mortem salvation. The verses you provided do teach that there isn't but also consider that God will judge people based on what they did in this life alone and not on some choice that they make after death (which is never spoken of). We see this in Romans 2:6-10 ; 2 Corinthians 5:10 ; John 8:21 ; John 5:28-29 ; Revelation 21:8 ; Galatians 6:7-9 ; Matthew 13:40-43 ; Philippians 3:17-20 ; Galatians 5:19-21 etc. All make it clear that the decisions we make in this life decide if we are damned for eternity or by the grace of God will be in heaven for all eternity.

Jesus never speaks of post mortem salvation even being a possibility in any of the judgment scenes provided by him. Matthew 7:21-23 is consistent with the other judgment scenes that Jesus gives us which shows that when Jesus tells the wicked to depart from him that is it there is no coming back from that. If there was Jesus would have made it clear. In Matthew 7:21-23 Jesus says that these people who he tells to depart from him and into the lake of fire they will not enter the kingdom of Heaven. Not that they might eventually or that they will eventually as Universalists like to claim but that they will not.

John 8:21-24 is also a great verse which teaches that there is no mercy beyond the grave :

"So he said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek me, and you will die in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot come…I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

^Jesus here explicitly denies Universalism by telling unbelievers that unless they believe in him they will die in their sin and if they die in their sins they cannot go where he is going which is to the Father in heaven (John 7:33 ; 16:27-28 ; 17:11). If you die in your sins you will not go to heaven.

We know that this place that unbelievers are being told that they cannot go is not an earthly one because Jesus says that they cannot go to this place if they die (physically) in their sins that is without being forgiven by Jesus Christ. They would face the penalty or wages of their sins which is eternal death, eternal separation from God in the lake of fire.

Jesus does not say “if you die in your sins you will eventually go to heaven”. Jesus says explicitly that if these unbelieving Jews die in their sin that they cannot go to heaven. Just like John 3:36 affirms they will not see eternal life!

John 8:21 is consistent with the rest of scripture which is that there is no repentance after death. If there was then this statement from Jesus makes no sense. For what would it matter if you die in your sins, you can just repent after you die and you can waltz into heaven after being in Hell (possibly) for a little while. Universalism nullifies Jesus'. Jesus is making it clear that if you die (physically) in your sins that is unforgiven you cannot enter the blessedness of heaven.

In Luke 13:23-28 Jesus makes it clear that once the head of the house has gotten up and closed the door you will not be allowed in which means that there will be those who are eternally separated from God and never allowed in. They are banging at the door to get in but aren’t allowed and this ties in with what Jesus responded to in verse 23-24 which is how many people will be saved. Jesus responded by explaining that we must strive to enter through the narrow door for “many will seek to enter but will not be able” Many will not be able to enter heaven. The denial is final. That is when we keep reading and seeing that denial is final they are banging and not allowed in if there if mercy beyond the grave then God should have opened that door or better yet he should have said that he will open if in 50 years or something like that. If not what does it matter if the head of the house shuts the door? It'll open again no need to fear - some universalist