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Is There Mercy Beyond The Grave?

Jeff Saunders

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How does that respond to my post?
"There is not one single verse spoken by the Father, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, saying or implying that anyone can be saved after death."​
Do you believe that there has to be a verse for you to believe something or can we read scripture and look at it as a whole and figure out what God is doing and has done? I can find no verses that say that the Trinity exists but we know from scripture that it does, just because there are no verses that say what you are looking for does not mean it’s not true. For me I want to know truth and I look at the scripture as a whole and also look to the early church fathers who may have had insight into who God is. I don’t understand why that is so hard to figure out.
 
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RickReads

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Do you believe that there has to be a verse for you to believe something or can we read scripture and look at it as a whole and figure out what God is doing and has done? I can find no verses that say that the Trinity exists but we know from scripture that it does, just because there are no verses that say what you are looking for does not mean it’s not true. For me I want to know truth and I look at the scripture as a whole and also look to the early church fathers who may have had insight into who God is. I don’t understand why that is so hard to figure out.

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

It isn't reasonable to expect a believer to believe in things that aren't in the gospel.
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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Do you believe that there has to be a verse for you to believe something or can we read scripture and look at it as a whole and figure out what God is doing and has done? I can find no verses that say that the Trinity exists but we know from scripture that it does, just because there are no verses that say what you are looking for does not mean it’s not true. For me I want to know truth and I look at the scripture as a whole and also look to the early church fathers who may have had insight into who God is. I don’t understand why that is so hard to figure out.
If you want to know who and what God is like look no further than God in the flesh ( Incarnate ) the Divine Son known as Jesus. He said what do you ask to see the Father to Phillip in John 14:9- he who has seen ME has seen the Father. John 12:45 And whoever sees Me sees the One who sent Me. John 14:7- If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him

See also John 1:1, John 1:14, John 20:28, Colossians 1:19 and Colossians 2:9.

hope this helps !!!
 
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Der Alte

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Do you believe that there has to be a verse for you to believe something or can we read scripture and look at it as a whole and figure out what God is doing and has done? I can find no verses that say that the Trinity exists but we know from scripture that it does, just because there are no verses that say what you are looking for does not mean it’s not true. For me I want to know truth and I look at the scripture as a whole and also look to the early church fathers who may have had insight into who God is. I don’t understand why that is so hard to figure out.
Something as important as this? No! Also as I have shown multiple times UR is contradicted by the words of Jesus, Himself. The ECF who promoted UR are contradicting the words of Jesus, so I don't consider them.
Dr. Illaria Ramelli has been quoted many times here. But unfortunately I caught her in a lie. She said something to the effect that Origen supposedly said in his commentary on John, that "all will leap into the Father after eternal life." I bought that commentary from "Logos" $60.00. Origen didn't say that. But he did give us a rock solid definition of "aionios life."

(59) He [Heracleon] is not wrong, however, when he says that the water that the Savior gives is of his spirit and power.[John 4:14]
(60) And he has explained the statement, “But he shall not thirst forever,” as follows with these very words: For the life he gives is eternal and never perishes, as, indeed, does the first life which comes from the well; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not to be taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.
Origen. (1993). Commentary on the Gospel according to John Books 13–32. (T. P. Halton, Ed., R. E. Heine, Trans.) (Vol. 89, pp. 67–69). Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press.
Note Origen said "eternal life" "never perishes 2x,""remains,""not taken away,""is not consumed."
 
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Jeff Saunders

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1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

It isn't reasonable to expect a believer to believe in things that aren't in the gospel.
You are correct so I stand corrected.
 
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public hermit

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There is not one single verse spoken by the Father, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, saying or implying that anyone can be saved after death

I don't think that's quite the right way to look at it. All salvation is after death. We are all appointed to die and then the judgment. But, what we are saved from is judgment; the condemnation of a just yet negative judgment (all have sinned and fallen short). If anyone is saved, it is after death. That's why Paul can say we are being saved. In the interim between death and judgment, who knows? Well, God knows. I think it's premature to assume there is no mercy beyond the grave. It certainly is not impossible for God.

Making an appeal to a parable in Matthew that clearly states salvation is the result, not of faith and grace, but good works is a dubious approach for someone who claims tradition is on their side. The tradition holds that salvation is by grace through faith, good works being a necessary outcome of life in the Spirit. There is an inherent tension between the doctrine of grace and the church tradition of guarunteed eternal condemnation.

Since the doctrine of grace is the case, all of us are goats since all have fallen short. This parable is a warning. A warning is not a guarantee of a particular outcome. We are all goats and by grace made sheep. Our good works are simply appropriate sheep behavior, but we are sheep by grace.

There is no reason to read that parable as anything other than a warning, which is fitting. Y'all goats should straighten up and love each other. Visit each other and care for each other, for goodness' sake. But there is no reason, given the doctrine of grace, to assume God can't make all goats sheep. Grace is grace, not a reward. The doctrine of guaranteed eternal condemnation assumes against the freedom and sovereignty of God. There are no guarantee but grace.
 
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wendykvw

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I believe there are many passages the can be interpreted as Mercy beyond the grave.
Matthew 20:1-16, a parable teaching a spiritual truth. God is generous, kind, patient, full of mercy and full of Grace. He has an unlimited supply. He forgives 7x70.

Romans 8:38-39. And many more. God has determined that He is not willing any perish but all come to repentance. Will all come to repentance? Yes. Just as all will come into the knowledge of truth. Christ didn’t come for just the righteous but also for the I unrighteous. Mark 2:17.
 
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wendykvw

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Jesus preached the Gospel to the dead. “For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.”

Some translations include the word “now” dead, but translators note that the word “now” was not in the Greek manuscripts, they inserted the word “now” which completely changes the meaning. of the verse.

For to this end the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh, but they might live in the spirit according to God. Berean translation


Indeed, this is why the gospel was proclaimed even to those who have died, so that they could be judged in their mortal flesh like all humans and live in the spiritual realm like God. International version
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Do you believe that there has to be a verse for you to believe something or can we read scripture and look at it as a whole and figure out what God is doing and has done? I can find no verses that say that the Trinity exists but we know from scripture that it does, just because there are no verses that say what you are looking for does not mean it’s not true. For me I want to know truth and I look at the scripture as a whole and also look to the early church fathers who may have had insight into who God is. I don’t understand why that is so hard to figure out.

Yep. The way we each make sense of the Bible depends on how our brains amalgamate our sources of choice. So, if we're all reading or listening to different sets of sources (and it's usually the case that we each do), we're thereby going to come at an understanding of the Bible a bit differently than the next guy/gal does.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Yep. The way we each make sense of the Bible depends on how our brains amalgamate our sources of choice. So, if we're all reading or listening to different sets of sources (and it's usually the case that we each do), we're thereby going to come at an understanding of the Bible a bit differently than the next guy/gal does.

And that's just the way it is.

Reality bites like that, even when the Holy Spirit is thought to be working in any of us.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

It isn't reasonable to expect a believer to believe in things that aren't in the gospel.
So are you saying that the infinite God is contained in a book and if it’s not in the book it’s not real?
 
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Der Alte

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I don't think that's quite the right way to look at it. All salvation is after death. We are all appointed to die and then the judgment. But, what we are saved from is judgment; the condemnation of a just yet negative judgment (all have sinned and fallen short). If anyone is saved, it is after death. That's why Paul can say we are being saved. In the interim between death and judgment, who knows? Well, God knows. I think it's premature to assume there is no mercy beyond the grave. It certainly is not impossible for God.
Making an appeal to a parable in Matthew that clearly states salvation is the result, not of faith and grace, but good works is a dubious approach for someone who claims tradition is on their side. The tradition holds that salvation is by grace through faith, good works being a necessary outcome of life in the Spirit. There is an inherent tension between the doctrine of grace and the church tradition of guarunteed eternal condemnation.
Since the doctrine of grace is the case, all of us are goats since all have fallen short. This parable is a warning. A warning is not a guarantee of a particular outcome. We are all goats and by grace made sheep. Our good works are simply appropriate sheep behavior, but we are sheep by grace.
There is no reason to read that parable as anything other than a warning, which is fitting. Y'all goats should straighten up and love each other. Visit each other and care for each other, for goodness' sake. But there is no reason, given the doctrine of grace, to assume God can't make all goats sheep. Grace is grace, not a reward. The doctrine of guaranteed eternal condemnation assumes against the freedom and sovereignty of God. There are no guarantee but grace.
Previous post kept putting in random quote blocks couldn't get rid of the blocks so deleted post.
Strange! You mention a passage I did not quote in Matthew but ignored the the several vss. I did mention. And I can't see how this post addresses anything I did post. The Matthew passage should not be understood in isolation. It does not negate all the other passages which address salvation.
Matthew 25:31-46 must be understood along with this passage.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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So are you saying that the infinite God is contained in a book and if it’s not in the book it’s not real?
How did Enoch know and learn about God when he lived before our Bible was even written? Sometimes I think people think that the Bible is part of the trinity, we don’t worship a book we worship the one the book points to.
 
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Der Alte

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Jesus preached the Gospel to the dead. “For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.”
Some translations include the word “now” dead, but translators note that the word “now” was not in the Greek manuscripts, they inserted the word “now” which completely changes the meaning. of the verse.
For to this end the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh, but they might live in the spirit according to God. Berean translation
Indeed, this is why the gospel was proclaimed even to those who have died, so that they could be judged in their mortal flesh like all humans and live in the spiritual realm like God. International version
How do those who are dead live in the spirit? Are there any other vss. which support your understanding of this vs?
 
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The Matthew passage should not be understood in isolation.

Each book should be considered for its internal coherence and then understood in relation to the rest, assuming the integrity of each book is given priority. We let scripture speak for itself. The themes that arise in common between the parts are good for doctrine, but on this issue there is no coherence between the parts. Sorry about your bad luck. Get a better interpretive method.
 
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Der Alte

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Then you must believe that there are multiple paths to the Father. Jesus said “ no man comes to the Father but through me” so all the OT people had to accept him after the mortal body was dead. If God can do that then why can he not do it later? Unless there are multiple paths to God and Jesus got it wrong.
Wrong! Show me in the OT where Jesus said to those then living "no man comes to the Father but through me?” Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't they under the Old Covenant? Didn't Jesus initiate a New Covenant." So explain to me how those under the old covenant get placed under the new covenant.
 
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Der Alte

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Each book should be considered for its internal coherence and then understood in relation to the rest, assuming the integrity of each book is given priority. We let scripture speak for itself. The themes that arise in common between the parts are good for doctrine, but on this issue there is no coherence between the parts. Sorry about your bad luck. Get a better interpretive method.
Do not expect further responses from me. If you think I am wrong show me how do not arrogantly blow me off as wrong. You are not the sole possessor of knowledge.
 
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public hermit

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Do not expect further responses from me. If you think I am wrong show me how do not arrogantly blow me off as wrong. You are not the sole possessor of knowledge.

I know very little. Doxastic humility is a rare virtue among the beloved, but desired by the most virtuous among them. ;)
 
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