Why are threads on Christian universalism so popular?

[Hmm]

Oh,I agree whole-heartedly. But the ECT folks logically have to assume that Satan got it right and St Paul got it wrong, because they believe that everyone lives forever and no one ever dies.

Ah, sorry for the understanding. Yes, Team Hell believes that we will exist eternally in the Lake of Fire exactly as we are now only a little bit hotter and more than a little bit annoyed.

 

[Jipsah]

Christ's teachings in Matthew 10:28 states we are to fear that one (our Father) that can destroy (meaning to destroy fully) both body and soul in hell. We know from Christ's Revelation this is the second death.

I kinda reckon "destroy" means "destroy". I'm funny like that. I 'spect that "death" means "death", as well. I have come to loathe the "what that really means is..." game used to make sure Scripture conforms to our doctrines.

We're dealing with life and death.

Not if you're ECT you're not. You're dealing with eternal life in bliss or eternal life under torture. There is no death; everyone lives forever. Old Nick was telling the truth, St. Paul was wrong. The wages of sin is torture, the gift of God is bliss, eternal life isn't an issue at all since everyone lives forever in any case.

Problem is that other than Satan's assurance to Mother Eve I see nowhere in Scripture anything that says that everyone lives forever, and tons of stuff that says we die.

Living for an eternity in the Lake of Fire is still eternal life.

Just so. And St Paul thinks eternal life is "the gift of God"? Calling it a curse would be closer to the mark.

And all throughout the Bible we see that the soul that sins shall die.

Obviously wrong, then, since nobody really dies, they're just tortured forever. Right?

 

[Hmm]

There is a condition there- "in Christ Jesus". The Lake of Fire ( prepared for Satan and his) is not Christ Jesus no matter how you spin it. Christ is the only way to salvation.

I'm not spinning anything with respect. Saying that the Lake of Fire is Christ Jesus makes no sense to me anyway so it's not something I would say.

I agree that Christ is the only way to salvation.

 

[Jipsah]

People will live in one of 2 places for all eternity in the life to come . Eternal bliss is heaven or eternal punishment in the lake of fire .

So Satan was correct; we shall not surely die. St Paul was wrong; the wages of sin is not death, but eternal torture. Everyone has eternal life no matter what. Correct?

 

[Der Alte]

I'm not sure why you say that Paul got it wrong.
Romans 6:23:
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord
This seems to be a straightforward universalist proclamation from Paul that God will overturn our death and sin and give us eternal life. Do you interpret it differently from that?

But for the condition which Paul stated more than once "eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Being "in Christ" is not automatic each person must make a willing, conscious decision.
When Paul wrote Rom 6:23 did he forget what he wrote in these verses. Twenty seven [27] groups of who have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men
(10) nor thieves nor the greedy or drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
(19) The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
(20) idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
(21) and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
(5) For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17
(17) If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy that person; for God's temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.​

 

[Hmm]

But for the condition which Paul stated more than once "eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Being "in Christ" is not automatic each person must make a willing, conscious decision.
When Paul wrote Rom 6:23 did he forget what he wrote in these verses. Twenty seven [27] groups of who have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men
(10) nor thieves nor the greedy or drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
(19) The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
(20) idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
(21) and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
(5) For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17
(17) If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy that person; for God's temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.​

I agree. Your point is?

 

[Der Alte]

So Satan was correct; we shall not surely die. St Paul was wrong; the wages of sin is not death, but eternal torture. Everyone has eternal life no matter what. Correct?

Wrong! If your understanding of Paul is correct then Jesus was wrong.

Matthew 25:46
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting [aionios] punishment[kolasis]: but the righteous into life eternal.[aionios]​

Some folks argue that "aionios does not mean eternal/everlasting it means "age." and "kolasis" means correction not "punishment."
"Kolasis" only occurs 2 times in the NT the second time is in 1 Jn 4:18.

1 John 4:18
(18) There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment.[kolasis] He that feareth is not made perfect in love.​

Note, the one who has "kolasis" is NOT made perfect i.e. NOT corrected. In Matt 25:46 "kolasis" means "punishment" NOT "correction."
What did Jesus means when He said "aionios?"

John 3:15-16
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionios] life.
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionios] life.​

In these two vss. Jesus parallels "aionios life" with "should not perish" two times. By specific definition "aionios" means "eternal/everlasting."

 

[Jipsah]

FWIW, my position is not so much support for UR as it is opposition to ECT. I can accept conditionalism, and consider the arguments for it sound. I would like to believe in UR, because I would love to know that God actually does triumph over all evil and reclaims all His creatures for Himself (yes, even Hitler and the Kims). I have to reject ECT, primarily because one has to play games with the meanings of too many Scriptures to make it work, and because it essentially portrays God as mercilous tyrant who has miscreants tortured simply because He they offended Him, and because He can. That's too pagan for me to credit. "Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?" isn't a question pagans asked, they didn't expect right conduct from their deities. But we believe in the Judge of all the Earth, and we trust Him to do right.

I reckon George McDonald said it best: To say on the authority of the Bible that God does a thing no honourable man would do, is to lie against God; to say that it is therefore right, is to lie against the very spirit of God

 

[Aussie Pete]

What does this say about "the fundamental problem of fallen man"?

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

God offers salvation to all. Not all accept. It's that simple.

 

[Der Alte]

I agree. Your point is?

Everybody is not "in Christ," in this life, and they have no opportunity to be "in Christ" after death.

John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
Psalms 88:10-11
10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
1Thessalonians 4:13
(13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Ephesians 2:12
(12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
JPS Prov 24:20
(20) For there will be no future to the evil man, the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.
Psalms 115:17
17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.​

 

[Jipsah]

Matthew 25:46 (46) And these shall go away into everlasting [aionios] punishment[kolasis]: but the righteous into life eternal.[aionios]

Annihilation would be fairly permanent, I reckon,

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionios] life.

Not much of a promise if everyone lives forever by default.

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionios] life.

But nobody is going to "perish" anyway, right? They're just sent off to be tortured forever.

Looks to me like a right argument for conditionalism.
​

 

[Aussie Pete]

A post full of vague generalities "Many are discovering..." "Universalism is an ancient teaching, not a modern invention...""the growing amount of Pastors who are also making this discovery..."

At your link there are only 3 paragraphs about Jesus and not one definitive statement by Jesus, Himself, stating that all mankind will be saved the righteous with the unrighteous alike, even after death or words to that effect.

The Apostolic Era
Jesus of Nazareth, known to his followers as the Messiah (Christ), taught that God has a benevolent Fatherly nature and character. In moving parables such as the Prodigal Son, the Lost Sheep, and the Good Samaritan, he emphasized love, mercy, forgiveness, and compassion for all people. He instructed people to love not only their neighbors but also their enemies; forgave a woman caught in the act of adultery, who was supposed to be stoned to death according to Jewish religious law; and even asked God to forgive the Roman soldiers who pounded nails into his own hands.
...When Jesus spoke of God’s judgment upon the wicked, he did so with words that implied a limited, corrective punishment. Specifically, he referred to divine judgment as aionios kolasis, meaning age-long chastisement. The idea was that a person who turns away from God and lives a life of evil will have to face justice — a purgatorial period in the afterlife — before enjoying eventual harmonious reunion with God.
...Jesus explicitly prophesied that after his death on the cross and resurrection, he will “draw all people to myself.” (John 12:32).​

Guess what. Not all people have come to Jesus, even though He has been risen for 2,000 years near enough. Lord Jesus also prophesied that there would be great apostasy and that the love of most would grow cold. You can make the Bible say almost anything if you selectively quote scripture. You need to look at the whole picture, not just a part of it.

 

[Der Alte]

FWIW, my position is not so much support for UR as it is opposition to ECT. I can accept conditionalism, and consider the arguments for it sound. I would like to believe in UR, because I would love to know that God actually does triumph over all evil and reclaims all His creatures for Himself (yes, even Hitler and the Kims). I have to reject ECT, primarily because one has to play games with the meanings of too many Scriptures to make it work, and because it essentially portrays God as mercilous tyrant who has miscreants tortured simply because He they offended Him, and because He can. That's too pagan for me to credit. "Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?" isn't a question pagans asked, they didn't expect right conduct from their deities. But we believe in the Judge of all the Earth, and we trust Him to do right.
I reckon George McDonald said it best: To say on the authority of the Bible that God does a thing no honourable man would do, is to lie against God; to say that it is therefore right, is to lie against the very spirit of God

"I have to reject ECT, primarily because one has to play games with the meanings of too many Scriptures to make it work." Some examples please?
"portrays God as mercilous tyrant who has miscreants tortured simply because He they offended Him, and because He can. That's too pagan for me to credit" When God destroyed millions, old, young, children, infants by drowning is that too pagan for you?
When God destroyed thousands, old, young, children, infants etc. was that too pagan for you?

"

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

So you don't believe death means death, in the English or original Greek?

Greek word 2288 thanatos, death, deadly, (be..) death

Since you don't believe the definition of this word. What is your new defintion of the word death? And if the definition of death can be changed by people, what's next? The entire word??

I always thought that when this body dies we get a new one how can that be if we are dead? Also I see scripture talk about the death of the soul not death of the spirit. So if our body dies we get a new one if our soul dies ( that which we have created in this life) we start over blank slate, but the spirit never dies. That is why Jesus can say that he loses none ,many will have there soul die but God will rescue all just as he said.

 

[Aussie Pete]

If death is already defeated why does Jesus say the last enemy to be defeated is death? I still see a lot of enemies still not defeated.

Well you are looking from the wrong perspective. Death was defeated when Jesus rose from the dead. So were Satan, and all principalities, powers, the wicked rulers of the darkness of this age and the spiritual wickedness in high places. They are still present with us, but we only have to resist them and they will flee. We fight because we have the victory now, not so we can win the victory some time in the future.

Physical death is nothing. I've been close to death twice in the last 3 years. I could not care less. My spirit is eternal and cannot die.

2 Timothy 1:10

And now He has revealed this grace through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has abolished death and illuminated the way to life and immortality through the gospel.

Romans 8:10

10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.

 

[JulieB67]

The wages of sin is torture

Apparently.

I see nowhere in Scripture anything that says that everyone lives forever, and tons of stuff that says we die.

Exactly. If we take the bible as a whole that's the conclusion I believe. We shouldn't have to stretch, change meanings of words, verses, etc to form a belief.

 

[Der Alte]

So Satan was correct; we shall not surely die. St Paul was wrong; the wages of sin is not death, but eternal torture. Everyone has eternal life no matter what. Correct?

…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death, in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.”

Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.​

 

[Jeff Saunders]

"I have to reject ECT, primarily because one has to play games with the meanings of too many Scriptures to make it work." Some examples please?
"portrays God as mercilous tyrant who has miscreants tortured simply because He they offended Him, and because He can. That's too pagan for me to credit" When God destroyed millions, old, young, children, infants by drowning is that too pagan for you?
When God destroyed thousands, old, young, children, infants etc. was that too pagan for you?

"

I’d you believe in UR like I do , by God killing the bodies of those people in OT he was doing them a favor. If they would continue in life they would have pilled up even more sin and infect others with there sin , so God took mercy on them and cut there days short so they would spend less time in the lake of fire. It would only be pagan if they were tortured forever like the pagans believe.

 

[Der Alte]

Guess what. Not all people have come to Jesus, even though He has been risen for 2,000 years near enough. Lord Jesus also prophesied that there would be great apostasy and that the love of most would grow cold.

And I have never said anything different.

You can make the Bible say almost anything if you selectively quote scripture. You need to look at the whole picture, not just a part of it

Please show me where I have ever selectively quoted any scripture and have not looked at the whole picture?

 

[Jeff Saunders]

This is the truth about the end and the places where people end up at from Revelations 22 below

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

Are you saying that what we call hell is on the new earth and that those who can’t go into the new Jerusalem are in what we call hell?