Why are threads on Christian universalism so popular?

[Saint Steven]

UR ignores the fundamental problem of fallen man.

What does this say about "the fundamental problem of fallen man"?

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[Hmm]

Is he motivated to figure out a way to create kids who can disobey him and at the same time not have to torture or kill them? I think so, and I think it's possible that he will.

Yes, it must be possible if he is omnipotent and the encapsulation of love: God is love. He must be able to find a way to save everyone without having to violate anyone's free will.

Obviously we don't know exactly how he can do this but he has given us the power of reason, however hard that is to believe sometimes, and perhaps it has something to do with that. If God is constant in trying to win use over, is it reasonable to continue to reject him forever? If we do aren't we being highly irrational and acting against our own best interests in a way which would lead to us being sectioned in this life? Would a loving God punish us for making choices that led to us being sectioned? Is he no better than Nurse Ratched in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest? David Bentley Hart sums it up this way, "To the extent that we reject God, we are not truly free."

 

[Hmm]

I think UR is commonly dismissed in the church based on the definition of Universalism, as in Unitarian Universalism.

These strawmen really do need to get together and form a union. They are definitely being overworked and they must feel really embarrassed at times.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

It's an interesting idea, God getting what he wants or not.

In the larger sense, I think God wanted to create humans who had the capacity to disobey him. And to know the difference between good and evil, if it came to that.

So in that sense, God got what he wanted.

Does he want humans to experience the pain and suffering that they do today? No, in that sense he isn't getting what he wants.

Is he motivated to figure out a way to create kids who can disobey him and at the same time not have to torture or kill them? I think so, and I think it's possible that he will.

You are not looking at the big picture, how can we say God does not get what he wants? We are not at the end yet , we as humans tend to look at what is going on now or in the past and to say God doesn’t get what he wants . But in the end he will it’s a long process, look at the end 1Cor15 in the end it says God will be all in all. I had a tumor removed from my large intestine and they had to remove about one foot of my larger intestine. If all you saw was a man taking a scalpel and cutting a twelve inch incision into my abdomen, cutting through perfectly fine skin and saw the blood flow out you would think that’s terribly the man is destroying perfectly good skin cutting it open how horrible. But you would not be seeing the big picture, it was necessary for the skin to be cut open in order for the doctor to do his work so that I could heal. That’s what this process looks like to us , it looks horrible and messy but in the end it was the best way for God to get all He wanted. So look at the end before we start saying God doesn’t get what he wants , that’s not what scripture tells us. God 100% satan 0%

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

You are not looking at the big picture, how can we say God does not get what he wants? We are not at the end yet , we as humans tend to look at what is going on now or in the past and to say God doesn’t get what he wants . But in the end he will it’s a long process, look at the end 1Cor15 in the end it says God will be all in all. I had a tumor removed from my large intestine and they had to remove about one foot of my larger intestine. If all you saw was a man taking a scalpel and cutting a twelve inch incision into my abdomen, cutting through perfectly fine skin and saw the blood flow out you would think that’s terribly the man is destroying perfectly good skin cutting it open how horrible. But you would not be seeing the big picture, it was necessary for the skin to be cut open in order for the doctor to do his work so that I could heal. That’s what this process looks like to us , it looks horrible and messy but in the end it was the best way for God to get all He wanted. So look at the end before we start saying God doesn’t get what he wants , that’s not what scripture tells us. God 100% satan 0%

This is the truth about the end and the places where people end up at from Revelations 22 below

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

 

[Jipsah]

know we are a living soul as genesis teaches- there are souls in both heaven and hell and they are not destroyed they are eternal.

So people intrinsically live forever. Nick was right, then, we shall not surely die. Hmmmm...

the soul that sins shall die not be annihilated.

Because everyone has eternal life by default, yes?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

So people intrinsically live forever. Nick was right, then, we shall not surely die. Hmmmm...

Because everyone has eternal life by default, yes?

No since all sin then all will die and only those who have been born of the spirit will receive eternal life.

 

[Jipsah]

One thing that remains constant throughout the scriptures is man has repeatedly disappointed God and you can definitely “bet the ranch on that”. So no, God doesn’t always get what He wants.

"Poor God...", right?

 

[Jipsah]

If that were true we’d still be in the Garden of Eden and there would’ve never been a flood or any need for Christ’s sacrifice. One thing that remains constant throughout the scriptures is man has repeatedly disappointed God and you can definitely “bet the ranch on that”. So no, God doesn’t always get what He wants.

Then again,God may be taking the long view, being that time essentially means nothing to Him. It's kinda like knowing that I-40 will take you to California even though right now you're still in Arkansas. From God's perspective, He can see Arkansas and California at the same time. (Yeah, I know, people generally find my analogies impenetrable, but I don't think that's entirely my fault.) Johnny heaves a rock through the window, and the neighbors declare that the poor parents have failed and Johnny will certainly be hanged by the time he's 18. Fast foward 70 years, and bad little Johnny is acclaimed by all as a genius and a saint. Perspective, right?

 

[Jipsah]

No since all sin then all will die and only those who have been born of the spirit will receive eternal life.

But wait, weren't you telling me that sinners will be punished forever? They have to be alive in order to be punished, ne c'est pas? Otherwise it's precisely analogous to flogging a dead horse. And if they're alive to be punished, they are,necessarily, alive, and will remain so forever so that they can be punished. So Nick was right, we shall not surely die.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

But wait, weren't you telling me that sinners will be punished forever? They have to be alive in order to be punished, ne c'est pas? Otherwise it's precisely analogous to flogging a dead horse. And if they're alive to be punished, they are,necessarily, alive, and will remain so forever so that they can be punished. So Nick was right, we shall not surely die.

The soul is eternal and lives forever. So after death as Jesus taught man is conscious.

Luke 16:19-31

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

[Leaf473]

So people intrinsically live forever. Nick was right, then, we shall not surely die. Hmmmm...

Because everyone has eternal life by default, yes?

Now that's an interesting idea.

IF we are immortal beings to begin with,

And IF God eventually reconciles everyone to himself,

then what Eve saw was right, the fruit actually was good for wisdom.

 

[Jipsah]

The soul is eternal and lives forever. So after death as Jesus taught man is conscious.

So we shall not surely die, at all, ever. Eternal life. Old Nick got it right, St.Paul got it wrong in Romans 6:23

 

[Hmm]

So we shall not surely die, at all, ever. Eternal life. Old Nick got it right, St.Paul got it wrong in Romans 6:23

I'm not sure why you say that Paul got it wrong.

Romans 6:23:
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

This seems to be a straightforward universalist proclamation from Paul that God will overturn our death and sin and give us eternal life. Do you interpret it differently from that?

 

[JulieB67]

The soul is eternal and lives forever

Christ's teachings in Matthew 10:28 states we are to fear that one (our Father) that can destroy (meaning to destroy fully) both body and soul in hell. We know from Christ's Revelation this is the second death.

We're dealing with life and death. Either you have eternal life through Christ or you wind up in the Lake of Fire which is the second "death". Living for an eternity in the Lake of Fire is still eternal life. You can't have it both ways.

And all throughout the Bible we see that the soul that sins shall die. We all know that repentance has come into play because we all sin. But we have to have repentance and our Father knows who is sincere or not. He is the heart knower.

 

[Jipsah]

I'm not sure why you say that Paul got it wrong.

Romans 6:23:
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

This seems to be a straightforward proclamation from Paul that God will overturn our death and sin and give us eternal life. UR IOW. Do you interpret it differently from that?

Oh,I agree whole-heartedly. But the ECT folks logically have to assume that Satan got it right and St Paul got it wrong, because they believe that everyone lives forever and no one ever dies.

 

[JulieB67]

This seems to be a straightforward proclamation from Paul that God will overturn our death and sin and give us eternal life. Universalism IOW. Do you interpret it differently from that?

There is a condition there- "in Christ Jesus". The Lake of Fire ( prepared for Satan and his) is not Christ Jesus no matter how you spin it. Christ is the only way to salvation.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Christ's teachings in Matthew 10:28 states we are to fear that one (our Father) that can destroy (meaning to destroy fully) both body and soul in hell. We know from Christ's Revelation this is the second death.

We're dealing with life and death. Either you have eternal life through Christ or you wind up in the Lake of Fire which is the second "death". Living for an eternity in the Lake of Fire is still eternal life. You can't have it both ways.

And all throughout the Bible we see that the soul that sins shall die. We all know that repentance has come into play because we all sin. But we have to have repentance and our Father knows who is sincere or not. He is the heart knower.

People will live in one of 2 places for all eternity in the life to come . Eternal bliss is heaven or eternal punishment in the lake of fire .

 

[Der Alte]

Many are discovering early church history and are discovering Universalism is an ancient teaching, not a modern invention. With access to information on the internet it has made those who wish to do research on the topic much easier and less expensive. Add also the growing amount of Pastors who are also making this discovery and leaving their congregations and starting new churches.

The History of Universalism > Christian Universalist Association

A post full of vague generalities "Many are discovering..." "Universalism is an ancient teaching, not a modern invention...""the growing amount of Pastors who are also making this discovery..."

At your link there are only 3 paragraphs about Jesus and not one definitive statement by Jesus, Himself, stating that all mankind will be saved the righteous with the unrighteous alike, even after death or words to that effect.

The Apostolic Era
Jesus of Nazareth, known to his followers as the Messiah (Christ), taught that God has a benevolent Fatherly nature and character. In moving parables such as the Prodigal Son, the Lost Sheep, and the Good Samaritan, he emphasized love, mercy, forgiveness, and compassion for all people. He instructed people to love not only their neighbors but also their enemies; forgave a woman caught in the act of adultery, who was supposed to be stoned to death according to Jewish religious law; and even asked God to forgive the Roman soldiers who pounded nails into his own hands.
...When Jesus spoke of God’s judgment upon the wicked, he did so with words that implied a limited, corrective punishment. Specifically, he referred to divine judgment as aionios kolasis, meaning age-long chastisement. The idea was that a person who turns away from God and lives a life of evil will have to face justice — a purgatorial period in the afterlife — before enjoying eventual harmonious reunion with God.
...Jesus explicitly prophesied that after his death on the cross and resurrection, he will “draw all people to myself.” (John 12:32).​

 

[JulieB67]

People will live in one of 2 places for all eternity in the life to come . Eternal bliss is heaven or eternal punishment in the lake of fire .

Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

So you don't believe death means death, in the English or original Greek?

Greek word 2288 thanatos, death, deadly, (be..) death

Since you don't believe the definition of this word. What is your new defintion of the word death? And if the definition of death can be changed by people, what's next? The entire word??