Why are threads on Christian universalism so popular?

[wendykvw]

Im familiar with Origen but not Gregory. Origen had a whole slew of anathemas charged against him and was labeled as a heretic at the 5th ecumenical council. But on the subject of universalism particularly here is the official canon that labeled Origen and his universal restoration doctrine as anathema.

IX.
If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration will take place of demons and of impious men, let him be anathema.
Anathema to Origen and to that Adamantius, who set forth these opinions together with his nefarious and execrable and wicked doctrine and to whomsoever there is who thinks thus, or defends these opinions, or in any way hereafter at any time shall presume to protect them.

300 years after Origen death. Makes you wonder why St. Clement of Alexandria and St. Gregory of Nyssa were never condemned for their support of Universalism. As far as I understand they condemned Origen for his questioning of the pre-existing of the soul.

 

[Der Alte]

As I have said the Greek does support my understanding We in UR camp chose to use the literal definition of aioni which is of the age or eon so our position is that it’s not eternal that’s all there is to it . No twisting of God having two wills or what the definition of all is ect it’s been hashed out many times

And you are wrong.
“aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 3 times in the N.T.
“aionios” is correctly translated eternal 42 times in the N.T.
“aionios” is correctly translated everlasting 25 times in the N.T.
Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times, Jesus never used “aionios” to refer something common, ordinary or mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
= = = = = = = = = =
In twenty four [24] of the following verses aionios is defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by paralleling or juxtaposition with other adjectives or descriptive phrases.
= = = = = = = = = =
…..Some people claim that “aionios” never means eternity/eternal/everlasting because it sometimes refer to something which is not eternal.
However, “aionios” is never defined/described, by adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything common, ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
…..In the following ten [10] verses Jesus defines “aionios” as “eternal/forever/everlasting.”

[1] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos] ​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternity.

[2] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios] ​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[3] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. ​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[4]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[5] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. ​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” below.

[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. ​

In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[10]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.


[Character Limit. Continued next post]

 

[Der Alte]

[Previous post continued]


Paul used the word “aionios” eleven [11] times. It is translated “eternal/everlasting” 20 times and world 3 times. In the following 12 verses Paul defines “aionios” as eternal.

[11]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[12]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.​

In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[13]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[14]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

[15]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [aionios]​

In this passage Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[16]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [aionios] in the heavens.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios house” with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[17]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [aionios]​

In this verse Paul paralleled “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[18]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [aionios]​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”

[19]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [apftharsia] he will give eternal [aionios] life.​

In this verse Paul parallels “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers do not seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”

[20]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [aion] immortal, [aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [aion] and ever [aionios]. Amen.​

In this verse Paul parallels “aion” with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[21]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[22]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.​

In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[23]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [aion] he has an unchangeable [aparabatos] priesthood.​

In this verse “aion” is parallel with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue for only a “finite period” and simultaneously be “unchangeable.” Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[24]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.​

In verse 23 Peter parallels “word of God” with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter, in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures eis ton aiona/unto eternity. ” The word of God is not a finite age long but imperishable. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity”

[25]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.​

In this verse Peter contrasted “aionios” with “little while” Jesus does not give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die. Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”

[26]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paralleled with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
= = = = = = =
Footnotes ου μη/ou mé
●The double negative [ου μη] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.[Vincent word studies]
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Exactly sounds very familiar to this verse

“The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die!”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Yes. UR is appealing. I don't want to see anyone in hell. God is not willing that any should perish. But He respects the choice of man.

 

[Hillsage]

I specifically quoted Luke 12:10 because it answers the questions will it never be forgiven or not. Luke 12:10 simply says it will not be forgiven. So you have to interpret the parallel verses in Matthew and Mark to coincide with Luke. The way your interpreting it here your ignoring the parallel verse in Luke.

No, your Luke verse needs to agree with the further expounding exegesis of the two verses in Matt or you have to prove 'your 1/2 truth' understanding of Luke makes the whole truth a lie, in Matt.

KJV MAT 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world/AION, neither in the world/AION to come.

So EITHER the first AION and second AION both mean an 'age', OR They are both translated (Incorrectly/our opinion) as 'eternity'. A position which just makes no sense at all to translate it as "it shall not be forgiven him neither in this eternity neither in 'the eternity' to come."

Now, read your Luke 12:10 verse IN CONTEXT, to determine if JESUS is talking from verses 8-12 about judgments taking place in 'this age' for us or against us concerning vs 11 "the angels of God" knowing your name like "Paul we know". Or, you also won't have the power of the Holy Spirit in verse 11 to "answer Magistrates and authorities" here and now.

IOW the context is dealing with our spiritual authority/position here and now, not the eternal hereafter.

 

[Aussie Pete]

My assumption is that people can't reconcile:
A Good God sending His creatures to eternal punishment / torment


Could you link that please?


I think the primary reason UR hasn't gone away is that people can't make sense of a good God that tortures eternally.
I guess they think they have to choose. Either
1) God's not that good, or
2) Eternal torment is good (under the circumstances) or,
3) People have misunderstood the scriptures.
I guess loads of people go with No. 3. ????

Personally,
It's hard for me to seperate 1 & 2.
The following thoughts are hard for me to overcome...

If eternal torment is right and good - it immediately lowers my concept of "Good".
I think "If that's what you mean by "good", it's not that good."

My idea of God would downgrade as well.
Some might say He is good, but I think "He's not that good".
Maybe all-creative and all-powerful, but I wouldn't describe a diety like that as "good".

Also, it hardly makes you bothered about heaven either.
A God that sends people to eternal torment talks about "heaven", you wonder what that God means when they say "heaven". It's not much to look forward to haha

Would you have a dead body in your home? Someone you could not be friends with, who stank, who you could not talk to? That is what it is like for God. People are born spiritually dead. God is the God of the living. Heaven is full of life, hell is for the dead. And those who are dead could not stand to be in God's presence. They would be terrified.

Everyone has a choice to make. Some choose to accept God's gracious gift of life. Some reject God's gift. There are consequences. It's the most important decision anyone could make, but a lot just brush it off as if it was of no importance. It's sad, but that's the way it is.

 

[Hillsage]

That interpretation fails to recognize that Jesus was going to be crucified regardless of anything Judas did. So even if Judas had never been born it would’ve had no effect on Jesus’ crucifixion because His crucifixion was going to happen whether Judas betrayed Him or not. What your saying is that if Judas hadn’t betrayed Jesus then He would’ve never been crucified and everyone would be thrown into the lake of fire, but that was never God’s plan. So that interpretation cannot be correct.

Now, go write your 'opinion' to the authors of the 2 NAS translation bibles that I have quoted from. Bibles from two different publishing companies. Then tell them your 'opinion'. I'll be surprised, for sure, if they say your opinion trumps the margin notes in their/my Zodhiates Greek Hebrew Key Study Bible OR their/my Holman Bible Publishers bible.

Both genuine 'leather bound editions'. Maybe that will impress you, as little as your above 'opinion', did not impress me concerning my 'opinion'.

 

[Hmm]

People are born spiritually dead.

You mean God is a manufacturer of dud products? Does He issue receipts so you can exchange a spiritually dead baby for a Christian one (preferably in blond and with musical genes)?

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

Would you have a dead body in your home? Someone you could not be friends with, who stank, who you could not talk to? That is what it is like for God. People are born spiritually dead. God is the God of the living. Heaven is full of life, hell is for the dead. And those who are dead could not stand to be in God's presence. They would be terrified.

Everyone has a choice to make. Some choose to accept God's gracious gift of life. Some reject God's gift. There are consequences. It's the most important decision anyone could make, but a lot just brush it off as if it was of no importance. It's sad, but that's the way it is.

Thanks for sharing your faith.

 

[Strong in Him]

People are born spiritually dead.

So babies/toddlers who die before they are old enough to hear about God and have a chance to come to him, have no hope and go to hell?
I've read testimonies about how the Holy Spirit has ministered to, and healed, babies. Strange He would do that if they are spiritually dead.

 

[Strong in Him]

I am pretty sure that, by the time Judas took his own life, he was wishing that he had never been born.

He had been one of the 12; chosen by the Messiah, someone who saw, and performed, miracles. He ended his life in despair, having betrayed Jesus, who he possibly thought might save himself at the 11th hour.
Judas was not expecting the resurrection - as none of them were. He also did not understand that Jesus' death was God's plan; prophesied long before. He was remorseful at having denied Jesus, was faced with leaders who did not care because they had got what they wanted, and died alone and in despair.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

I am pretty sure that, by the time Judas took his own life, he was wishing that he had never been born.
He had been one of the 12; chosen by the Messiah, someone who saw, and performed, miracles. He ended his life in despair, having betrayed Jesus, who he possibly thought might save himself at the 11th hour.
Judas was not expecting the resurrection - as none of them were. He also did not understand that Jesus' death was God's plan; prophesied long before. He was remorseful at having denied Jesus, was faced with leaders who did not care because they had got what they wanted, and died alone and in despair.

Are you trying to point out that people can be spiritually "dead" and then be redeemed?

That a persons faith is a journey may include deaths and redemptions?
??

 

[Jeff Saunders]

How about applying that reasoning to this passage
When I first heard the Calvinist proof text about a leopard not being able to change his spots, nor the Ethiopian his skin, I needed to see the context. I found that God was speaking to the king and queen of Israel not, necessarily all of mankind, Jer 13:18. And as I read further in this chapter I found another passage, which refutes several tenets of Calvinism.
Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s express will, clearly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist.
It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
…..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

Note, verse 14, God said “I will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.”

I think to many people look to words on a page and try to make up a system that they think pleases God but there hearts are far from him. Is this not what the Jews did they killed Jesus because they did not know Gods heart. We look to scripture and read but if we do not understand the heart of Jesus it does no good. That is what John5:36-40 tells us, Jesus got on the people because the knew the words on the page but did not get the spirit of Jesus. He said life was in Him and Him only. When I read the Scripture I do not see the God that you see. I see the God of John6 A God who is kind to the ungrateful and wicked, Luke 7 Jesus said those who have been forgiven much love much those who have been forgiven little love little. Jesus says pray for those who persecute you love your enemy. When James and John wanted to call fire and burn those who disrespected Jesus he said no.Jesus on the cross said Father forgive them for they know not what they do, the very people who are killing him he wants forgiven. So I see a different spirit of who God is than you that’s all. I read the scripture and I see life for all of Gods creation just as Jesus said he will lose none. The problem I think a lot of people have is the don’t understand the big picture of what God is doing to redeem his whole creation. We see all the bad stuff from creation till now and do not understand that this is just the process to get us to the place that 1Cor15 says God will be all in all , he will win over all his enemies with love and in the end his desire and will are both done , then He will have fellowship with his whole creation not just a small fraction. Jesus 100% satan0% that’s the way I see it and you can analyze all the verses you want but unless they are put through the lense of Jesus they are just words on a page.

 

[Hmm]

I think to many people look to words on a page and try to make up a system that they think pleases God but there hearts are far from him. Is this not what the Jews did they killed Jesus because they did not know Gods heart. We look to scripture and read but if we do not understand the heart of Jesus it does no good. That is what John5:36-40 tells us, Jesus got on the people because the knew the words on the page but did not get the spirit of Jesus. He said life was in Him and Him only. When I read the Scripture I do not see the God that you see. I see the God of John6 A God who is kind to the ungrateful and wicked, Luke 7 Jesus said those who have been forgiven much love much those who have been forgiven little love little. Jesus says pray for those who persecute you love your enemy. When James and John wanted to call fire and burn those who disrespected Jesus he said no.Jesus on the cross said Father forgive them for they know not what they do, the very people who are killing him he wants forgiven. So I see a different spirit of who God is than you that’s all. I read the scripture and I see life for all of Gods creation just as Jesus said he will lose none. The problem I think a lot of people have is the don’t understand the big picture of what God is doing to redeem his whole creation. We see all the bad stuff from creation till now and do not understand that this is just the process to get us to the place that 1Cor15 says God will be all in all , he will win over all his enemies with love and in the end his desire and will are both done , then He will have fellowship with his whole creation not just a small fraction. Jesus 100% satan0% that’s the way I see it and you can analyze all the verses you want but unless they are put through the lense of Jesus they are just words on a page.

Well said. All the copy and pasted analysis we see here trying to defend the idea of God as Torturer is not really very convincing. And why, because who wants a God like that anyway?

God creates us in the image of Himself but we all to frequently create God in the image of ourselves. I really wouldn't want a God that is based on me. But on @Saint Steven perhaps, sure!

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Why is it so hard to believe that a all loving all powerful God could not possibly win over someone as hitler? Or even satan himself someday I don’t find that hard to do with a God of the impossible, kind of like what Jesus said with man it is impossible but with God all things are possible. (sorry I threw in that nasty word ALL)

Eternal means never ending and there are those who will have never ending punishment/torment. Here are Greek Lexicons proving the above is true.


KJV Strongs #165 aionios - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).


NT:166

1. without beginning or end, that which always has been and always will be: ‎Qeo/$‎, Rom 16:26 (‎o( ‎‎mo/no$ ‎‎ai)w/nio$‎, 2 Macc 1:25); ‎pneu=ma‎, Heb 9:14.

2. without beginning: ‎xro/noi$ ‎‎ai)wni/oi$‎, Rom 16:25; ‎pro/ ‎‎xro/nwn ‎‎ai)wni/wn‎, 2 Tim 1:9; Titus 1:2; ‎eu)agge/lion‎, a gospel whose subject-matter is eternal, i. e., the saving purpose of God adopted from eternity, Rev 14:6.

3. without end, never to cease, everlasting: 2 Cor 4:18 (opposed to ‎pro/skairo$‎); ‎ai)w/nion ‎‎au)to/n‎, joined to thee forever as a sharer of the same eternal life, Philcmon 1:15; ‎ba/ro$ ‎‎do/ch$‎, 2 Cor 4:17; ‎basilei/a‎, 2 Peter 1:11; ‎do/ca‎, 2 Tim 2:10; 1 Peter 5:10; ‎zwh/ ‎(see ‎zwh/‎, 2 b.); ‎klhronomi/a‎, Heb 9:15; ‎lu/trwsi$‎, Heb 9:12; ‎para/klhsi$‎, 2 Thess 2:16; ‎skhnai/‎, abodes to be occupied forever, Luke 16:9 (the habitations of the blessed in heaven are referred to, cf. John 14:2 (

(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, PC Study Bible formatted Electronic Database. Copyright © 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)



NT:166
"The predominant meaning of aionios, that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in 2 Cor 4:18, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., 'for a season,' and in Philem 15, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, Rom 16:26; of His power, 1 Tim 6:16, and of His glory, 1 Peter 5:10; of the Holy Spirit, Heb 9:14; of the redemption effected by Christ, Heb 9:12, and of the consequent salvation of men, 5:9, as well as of His future rule, 2 Peter 1:11, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, Luke 1:33; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, John 3:16, concerning whom He said, 'they shall never perish,' 10:28, and of the resurrection body, 2 Cor 5:1, elsewhere said to be 'immortal,' 1 Cor 15:53, in which that life will be finally realized, Matt 25:46; Titus 1:2.


(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)

 

[BNR32FAN]

Personally I don’t care who labeled him that , my military friends say the one over the target gets the most flack. Most likely he labeled as such because the last thing the church at that time wanted was to lose control you can’t keep people in line with the hell club if it’s not a eternal threat. He and others were so much closer to the original disciples and Greek was there native language that they threatened the Latin thinking that crept into the church. I would trust the thinking of them over the Catholic Church any day.The Catholic Church of that day was so corrupt it’s no surprise they would condemn him. He believed along with many others in Apokatastasis and I would follow his teaching any day. Did he get everything correct no probably not but no one does anyone who thinks they have no error in there beliefs is got blinder’s on.

Iranaeus was a lot closer to the apostolic teachings and was born and raised in Smyrna, a Greek society as well. He wrote this in 170AD before Origen was even born.


so is also our walk in life required to be more circumspect, when we are directed not merely to abstain from evil actions, but even from evil thoughts, and from idle words, and empty talk, and scurrilous language: thus also the punishment of those who do not believe the Word of God, and despise His advent, and are turned away backwards, is increased; being not merely temporal, but rendered also eternal. For to whomsoever the Lord shall say, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, Matthew 25:41 these shall be damned for ever; and to whomsoever He shall say, Come, you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you for eternity, Matthew 25:34 these do receive the kingdom for ever,

St Iranaeus 170AD Adversus Haereses Book 4 Chapter 28

Notice he uses Matthew 25:41 as his evidence pertaining to the use of the Greek word aionios in which he attests it “not temporal but eternal” which he is very familiar with as he spoke Greek his entire life. Furthermore he was a pupil of Polycarp who was a direct pupil of John the Evagelist. So I think given his background and tutelage his testimony gives more weight than Origen who wasn’t even born yet. Not to mention that it is widely known that Origen’s doctrine of apocatastasis was widely refuted in the church much more so that it was excepted and was never supported by ecumenical council it was actually refuted in the 5th ecumenical council.

Exactly what corruption are you referring to in the Catholic Church?

 

[JulieB67]

What your teaching people is that they don’t have to come to Christ in this lifetime, that they can live however they please and all they have to do is repent when they get to the lake of fire and they will be saved.

I agree and this is what I don't get either. It should be about Christ and only Christ.

This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life

Exactly. Common sense alone should tell us that if one is not in the book of life by the time of the final Judgement, you suffer the "second death". And death means death, whether in the Greek or English. I mean why even call it the book of life or the 'second death". If the Lake of Fire was redemptive, it would be clearly laid out in scriptures. But what is laid out in scriptures is the fact that it was prepared for Satan and his angels and that it's called the second death. It's not called a refinery.
And yes, it is God's desire, wish that all would come to repentance but we can see from scriptures they won't. It specifically states anyone not in the book of "life" is thrown into the Lake of Fire. I just don't think the word can be any more clear on the matter.

 

[JulieB67]

We know the lake of fire is awful and may last a long time maybe millions of years we have no way to know.

If you honestly believe this, you are very close to ECT anyway imo.

We know for a fact that death will be done away with and we will have a new earth/heavens and the former will be passed away with.

Hell and death were cast into the Lake of Fire. This fire consumes.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That's a pretty wild claim. Here's Fr Aiden Kimel on the subject:

"Over the past three centuries, however, historians have seriously questioned whether these anathemas were officially promulgated by II Constantinople. The council was convened by the Emperor Justinian for the express purpose of condemning the Three Chapters. Justinian does not mention the Origenist debate in his letter announcing the council nor in his letter that was read to the bishops at the formal opening of the council; nor do the acts of the council, as preserved in the Latin translation (the original Greek text having been lost), cite the fifteen anathemas. Hence when church historian Norman P. Tanner edited his collection of the Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils in 1990, he did not include the anti-Origenist denunciations, offering the following explanation: “Our edition does not include the text of the anathemas against Origen since recent studies have shown that these anathemas cannot be attributed to this council.”"

Its well known that Origen’s doctrine of apocatastasis has always been refuted by the church. Iranaeus refuted it before Origen was even born in his writing Adversus Haereses. See post #216

 

[BNR32FAN]

How about applying that reasoning to this passage
When I first heard the Calvinist proof text about a leopard not being able to change his spots, nor the Ethiopian his skin, I needed to see the context. I found that God was speaking to the king and queen of Israel not, necessarily all of mankind, Jer 13:18. And as I read further in this chapter I found another passage, which refutes several tenets of Calvinism.
Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s express will, clearly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist.
It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
…..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

Note, verse 14, God said “I will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.”

I can’t seem to find the Hebrew word translated to “will” in that passage.