Why are threads on Christian universalism so popular?

[BNR32FAN]

300 years after Origen death. Makes you wonder why St. Clement of Alexandria and St. Gregory of Nyssa were never condemned for their support of Universalism. As far as I understand they condemned Origen for his questioning of the pre-existing of the soul.

Not according to the 9th canon of the 5th ecumenical council.

IX.
If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration will take place of demons and of impious men, let him be anathema.
Anathema to Origen and to that Adamantius, who set forth these opinions together with his nefarious and execrable and wicked doctrine and to whomsoever there is who thinks thus, or defends these opinions, or in any way hereafter at any time shall presume to protect them.

 

[BNR32FAN]

And you are wrong.
“aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 3 times in the N.T.
“aionios” is correctly translated eternal 42 times in the N.T.
“aionios” is correctly translated everlasting 25 times in the N.T.
Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times, Jesus never used “aionios” to refer something common, ordinary or mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
= = = = = = = = = =
In twenty four [24] of the following verses aionios is defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by paralleling or juxtaposition with other adjectives or descriptive phrases.
= = = = = = = = = =
…..Some people claim that “aionios” never means eternity/eternal/everlasting because it sometimes refer to something which is not eternal.
However, “aionios” is never defined/described, by adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything common, ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
…..In the following ten [10] verses Jesus defines “aionios” as “eternal/forever/everlasting.”

[1] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos] ​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternity.

[2] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios] ​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[3] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. ​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[4]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[5] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. ​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” below.

[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. ​

In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[10]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.


[Character Limit. Continued next post]

Amen both aionios and aion mean the exact same thing one is a noun the other is an adjective. They’re used to describe God’s power, His glory, His reign, and even the life expectancy of salvation. Iranaeus specifically quoted Matthew 25:41 and said that the punishment of those in opposition to God “is not merely temporal but eternal in Adversus Haereses. I give more weight to Iranaeus than Origen not only because of his Greek background but also his tutelage from Polycarp a direct disciple of John.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes. UR is appealing. I don't want to see anyone in hell. God is not willing that any should perish. But He respects the choice of man.

I like how Iranaeus put it. For those who prefer the darkness He gives them darkness, for those who prefer the light He gives them light.

 

[Der Alte]

I can’t seem to find the Hebrew word translated to “will” in that passage.

The native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars who translated the 1917 Jewish Publication Society OT understood that the "state" of the word "pity" in Jeremiah 13:14 required the word "will" in English. Hebrew has "States" it does not have "Tenses."

JPS Jeremiah 13:14
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD; I will not pity, nor spare, nor have compassion, that I should not destroy them.​

 

[Hmm]

I like how Iranaeus put it. For those who prefer the darkness He gives them darkness, for those who prefer the light He gives them light.

I'm glad you like it. These things are written to be reflected on.

 

[Leaf473]

I'm glad you like it. These things are written to be reflected on.

Psalm 18 came to my mind after reading that from Iranaeus.

To the merciful you will show yourself merciful.

To those with integrity you show integrity.

To the pure, you will show yourself pure.

To the crooked you will show yourself shrewd.

 

[Der Alte]

I think to many people look to words on a page and try to make up a system that they think pleases God but there hearts are far from him. Is this not what the Jews did they killed Jesus because they did not know Gods heart. We look to scripture and read but if we do not understand the heart of Jesus it does no good. That is what John5:36-40 tells us, Jesus got on the people because the knew the words on the page but did not get the spirit of Jesus. He said life was in Him and Him only. When I read the Scripture I do not see the God that you see. I see the God of John6 A God who is kind to the ungrateful and wicked, Luke 7 Jesus said those who have been forgiven much love much those who have been forgiven little love little. Jesus says pray for those who persecute you love your enemy. When James and John wanted to call fire and burn those who disrespected Jesus he said no.Jesus on the cross said Father forgive them for they know not what they do, the very people who are killing him he wants forgiven. So I see a different spirit of who God is than you that’s all. I read the scripture and I see life for all of Gods creation just as Jesus said he will lose none. The problem I think a lot of people have is the don’t understand the big picture of what God is doing to redeem his whole creation. We see all the bad stuff from creation till now and do not understand that this is just the process to get us to the place that 1Cor15 says God will be all in all , he will win over all his enemies with love and in the end his desire and will are both done , then He will have fellowship with his whole creation not just a small fraction. Jesus 100% satan0% that’s the way I see it and you can analyze all the verses you want but unless they are put through the lense of Jesus they are just words on a page.

None of this addresses my post and/or the 26 vss I quoted and discussed in any way. And OBTW posting a different translation/interpretation of a vs or vss. does not in any way show that anything I posted is incorrect. What is required is a grammatical and/or lexical exegesis of a word conclusively showing from scholarly sources that anything I posted is incorrect. Bonne Chance.

 

[Hmm]

Psalm 18 came to my mind after reading that from Iranaeus.

To the merciful you will show yourself merciful.

To those with integrity you show integrity.

To the pure, you will show yourself pure.

To the crooked you will show yourself shrewd.

My reflection on this from Iranaeus

He gives them darkness, for those who prefer the light He gives them light.

is that darkness does not have to mean "eternal torture" as I think the poster was trying to push.

Why can't it mean something completely different such as a period of feeling God's absence so that you realise God's worth? Something educational rather than mindless eternal punishment, however controversial it may be to say that about God lol.

Why does every reference to God's displeasure or man's disobedience have to lead to eternal torture? What sort of relationship can you have on that basis?

 

[BNR32FAN]

No, your Luke verse needs to agree with the further expounding exegesis of the two verses in Matt or you have to prove 'your 1/2 truth' understanding of Luke makes the whole truth a lie, in Matt.

My interpretation has no contradiction. Your’s on the other hand does.

Matthew even says sin against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

““Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:31-32‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Look at the contrasting statement in verse 31. Any sin can be forgiven, BUT sin against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. He’s giving a contrast between sins that will be forgiven as opposed to the sin that won’t be forgiven. Then He goes on to say it won’t be forgiven in this age or the age to come. He never said it will be forgiven at a later age or at anytime ever.

Again in Mark that same contrasting statement between sins that will be forgiven and the one sin that won’t be forgiven.

““Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭3:28-29‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Now Luke 12:10

“And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

All three specifically state that sin against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, you say that it will eventually be forgiven. Jesus doesn’t say that they will eventually or ever be forgiven. So your the one who’s interpretation is contradictory to the scriptures, not mine.

 

[BNR32FAN]

KJV MAT 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world/AION, neither in the world/AION to come.

So EITHER the first AION and second AION both mean an 'age', OR They are both translated (Incorrectly/our opinion) as 'eternity'. A position which just makes no sense at all to translate it as "it shall not be forgiven him neither in this eternity neither in 'the eternity' to come."

This is completely irrelevant. Translate it to age if you want to it makes no difference at all to the message. All three still specifically state that it will not be forgiven. Nowhere does Jesus say or even imply that it will ever be forgiven.

 

[Hmm]

Bon Chance.

"Bonne chance" surely, chance being a feminine noun in French? Just sayin' as I know how much you like linguistics.

 

[Der Alte]

"Bonne chance" surely, chance being a feminine noun in French? Just sayin' as I know how much you like linguistics.

Mea Culpa, mea maxima culpa.

 

[Hmm]

Mea Culpa, mea maxima culpa.

Quite.

 

[Hmm]

"Bonne chance" surely, chance being a feminine noun in French? Just sayin' as I know how much you like linguistics.

Hence Lady Luck I suppose.

 

[Der Alte]

Hence Lady Luck I suppose.

In the movie The Patriot a "French Officer" said Bonne Chance to Mel Gibson. I assumed it meant "good Luck.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Now, go write your 'opinion' to the authors of the 2 NAS translation bibles that I have quoted from. Bibles from two different publishing companies. Then tell them your 'opinion'. I'll be surprised, for sure, if they say your opinion trumps the margin notes in their/my Zodhiates Greek Hebrew Key Study Bible OR their/my Holman Bible Publishers bible.

Both genuine 'leather bound editions'. Maybe that will impress you, as little as your above 'opinion', did not impress me concerning my 'opinion'.

Jesus’ crucifixion was prophesied about several times in the Old Testament which means it had to take place no matter what. Saying it would’ve been better for Jesus if Judas had never been born makes no sense at all because He still would’ve had to be crucified otherwise the prophecy wouldn’t be fulfilled, we wouldn’t be saved, and the prophecy would’ve been a lie. Itchy ears indeed.

 

[Hmm]

In the movie The Patriot a "French Officer" said Bonne Chance to Mel Gibson. I assumed it meant "good Luck.

It does.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I am pretty sure that, by the time Judas took his own life, he was wishing that he had never been born.

He had been one of the 12; chosen by the Messiah, someone who saw, and performed, miracles. He ended his life in despair, having betrayed Jesus, who he possibly thought might save himself at the 11th hour.
Judas was not expecting the resurrection - as none of them were. He also did not understand that Jesus' death was God's plan; prophesied long before. He was remorseful at having denied Jesus, was faced with leaders who did not care because they had got what they wanted, and died alone and in despair.

Yeah my point was that even if by some miracle Judas hadn’t betrayed Jesus it still wouldn’t have been better for Jesus because He still had to be crucified regardless. So that NAS translation is garbage.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Well said. All the copy and pasted analysis we see here trying to defend the idea of God as Torturer is not really very convincing. And why, because who wants a God like that anyway?

BINGO!! We have an answer to the OP from the OP himself.

Could it possibly be that the reason belief in universal reconciliation has never gone away is because it's the truth that scripture points to?

“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:3-4‬ ‭NASB1995‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

If you honestly believe this, you are very close to ECT anyway imo.

We know for a fact that death will be done away with and we will have a new earth/heavens and the former will be passed away with.

Hell and death were cast into the Lake of Fire. This fire consumes.

Hades, death, and those who’s names were not written in the book of life.