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POLL: Did the ancient Hebrews believe that the earth was flat?

POLL: Did any of the Bible writers believe that the earth was flat and describe it as such?


  • Total voters
    27
  • Poll closed .

atpollard

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“waters above” and “waters below” is another simple observation. If I stand in a field long enough, I will eventually get rained on. It doesn’t take a ‘rocket scientist’ to recognize that there is WATER falling from ABOVE. If the rain stops and I get thirsty, I might dig a well and (again, not ‘rocket science’) discover that there is WATER BELOW the earth/dirt/dry ground. So the important part of “God separated the waters above from the waters below and caused dry land to appear” is NOT a lesson in GEOLOGY or PLANETOLOGY … the important ‘take away’ is that GOD MADE IT SO!
 
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Ragdoll

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I don't really see what any of the above post has to do with the firmament and the waters above. For example, you mentioned Job suggesting that earth was suspended in space, but what does that have to do with the raqia?

Tebel means habitable globe, and so what does that have to do with the raqia?

The word raqia means "expanse", ok, but that says nothing of the nature of the expanse.

If we take every single verse on the raqia throughout the old testament, in every single case, it is described with adjectives suggesting that it was a solid structure. Hence how it could have windows that held back flood waters and hence how the windows closed to restrain the flood waters at the end of the flood. And so in a world in which a solid dome is present, domes, much like a snow globe, rest upon flat surfaces. Which should come of no surprise given that ancient Hebrews had not yet invented satellite technology to investigate the shape of earth.

First lets understand that the Bible teaches a single view on this subject. For example, in Proverbs chapter 8, there are two verses that use tebel and one verse that uses chuwg. I find it hard to believe that Solomon would say the world is a globe in two verses and then say its flat in another verse in the same chapter. So we know that chuwg describes a globe since tebel supports the meaning.

Now when we go back to Genesis and look at the oldest interpretations of Genesis 1:4-5, those two verses are understood to mean the earth's first rotation as a sphere. So why would Genesis 1:6-8 mean flat earth or a half sphere (snow cone) after saying it was a globe on Day 1?

What does expanse mean? The expanse in Scripture is used to mean the heavens, even the highest heavens. It can mean the earthly sky as it does in Genesis 1:6-8. It can also mean the expanse of the ocean. Expanse also means space...a space between land and sky, or outer space the heavens and highest heavens. What raqiya does not mean is solid dome. That definition is deeply flawed and one cannot even read Genesis and gain any understanding from it. But if you read Genesis with the word expanse then the whole chapter makes perfects sense.

Now you last comment mentions how the ancient Hebrews didn't invent the satellite. This is true. However, the Bible isn't the word according to the Hebrews. Its the word of God. Scripture does not say Thus saith the Hebrews. It says "Thus saith the LORD." The Hebrews had no way of knowing that the earth was round so far back. Even the Greeks didn't figure it out until 500 B.C. The Hebrews could not have known that the earth is suspended in space over nothing. There are many things in Scripture they could not have known apart from Divine inspiration. It's when we accept God is when we can make sense of the Hebrew Scriptures. Isaiah did not preach the word according to the Hebrews. He taught the word of God.

There are so many prophecies in Scripture. I cannot tell you the number because they are too numerous for me to know the exact number. These prophecies contain the knowledge of God. That knowledge led mankind to the modern era of science and modern civilization in general. If the Bible was just the word according to Hebrew beliefs like ANE suggests, then that knowledge should not have taken us very far. It's when we accept the reality that God inspired the Scriptures is when we finally can make sense of the Bible and the world around us.

Forgive me if I drift off topic for a bit, but I have a point to make that further drives in my last point. Putin is threatening nuclear war with the west. Now I personally don't believe he is bluffing. I could be wrong but that's my opinion on the matter. He is a madman and madman do mad things. This means that Jesus could return within days now. For Jesus will not allow the complete and total destruction of this world while there are still His faithful on it. Jesus said many things about the future of our world and these prophecies should never be ignored.

All I can say to you today is this. Maybe we won't see the end of next week. Maybe we won't have a tomorrow. Maybe millions will be dead by Monday. We don't know the future. Only God knows all that. Jesus loves you no matter what you have done in your life. We've all done bad things, even horrible things. I am no exception. There are many times when I wonder what God ever saw in me that He thought I was worthy of saving. Yet God looked past my sins and forgave those sins when I repented of my sins and followed Him. I'm not a better person than you are. We all have sinned and done terrible things in the eyes of God. Jesus loves you just for who you are. All you have to do is accept Jesus into your life and follow Him and as long as you remain on the straight and narrow path you will never be lost. Keep your focus on Jesus, even when you stumble and and fall like we all do from time to time. I have a strong feeling that for many who live on the earth today, some of those will live to see the coming of the LORD in His glory when He returns to Judge the earth. Don't let things like ANE steal you away from eternal life with Christ. We may not have much time left. Jesus is coming soon and we all need to be prepared for that. As the old Amy Grant song goes: its the now and not the yet. You may not live to become an old man. We don't know what tomorrow brings. Jesus said He would come like a thief in the night. There are also some prophecies that can be interpreted as a nuclear war before Christ returns. I am not going to speak dogmatically about those prophecies because they can be interpreted differently. I just think life is too precious and short to fall victim to the ways of this world. Christ knows you're a sinner. Yet no matter what things you have done He will forgive you and make you His son. For in the end, we who are all in Christ are one family. It doesn't matter what color our skin is or how much we make for a living or how educated or uneducated we are. We are all one family in Christ.
 
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Job 33:6

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First lets understand that the Bible teaches a single view on this subject. For example, in Proverbs chapter 8, there are two verses that use tebel and one verse that uses chuwg. I find it hard to believe that Solomon would say the world is a globe in two verses and then say its flat in another verse in the same chapter. So we know that chuwg describes a globe since tebel supports the meaning.

Now when we go back to Genesis and look at the oldest interpretations of Genesis 1:4-5, those two verses are understood to mean the earth's first rotation as a sphere. So why would Genesis 1:6-8 mean flat earth or a half sphere (snow cone) after saying it was a globe on Day 1?

What does expanse mean? The expanse in Scripture is used to mean the heavens, even the highest heavens. It can mean the earthly sky as it does in Genesis 1:6-8. It can also mean the expanse of the ocean. Expanse also means space...a space between land and sky, or outer space the heavens and highest heavens. What raqiya does not mean is solid dome. That definition is deeply flawed and one cannot even read Genesis and gain any understanding from it. But if you read Genesis with the word expanse then the whole chapter makes perfects sense.

Now you last comment mentions how the ancient Hebrews didn't invent the satellite. This is true. However, the Bible isn't the word according to the Hebrews. Its the word of God. Scripture does not say Thus saith the Hebrews. It says "Thus saith the LORD." The Hebrews had no way of knowing that the earth was round so far back. Even the Greeks didn't figure it out until 500 B.C. The Hebrews could not have known that the earth is suspended in space over nothing. There are many things in Scripture they could not have known apart from Divine inspiration. It's when we accept God is when we can make sense of the Hebrew Scriptures. Isaiah did not preach the word according to the Hebrews. He taught the word of God.

There are so many prophecies in Scripture. I cannot tell you the number because they are too numerous for me to know the exact number. These prophecies contain the knowledge of God. That knowledge led mankind to the modern era of science and modern civilization in general. If the Bible was just the word according to Hebrew beliefs like ANE suggests, then that knowledge should not have taken us very far. It's when we accept the reality that God inspired the Scriptures is when we finally can make sense of the Bible and the world around us.

Forgive me if I drift off topic for a bit, but I have a point to make that further drives in my last point. Putin is threatening nuclear war with the west. Now I personally don't believe he is bluffing. I could be wrong but that's my opinion on the matter. He is a madman and madman do mad things. This means that Jesus could return within days now. For Jesus will not allow the complete and total destruction of this world while there are still His faithful on it. Jesus said many things about the future of our world and these prophecies should never be ignored.

All I can say to you today is this. Maybe we won't see the end of next week. Maybe we won't have a tomorrow. Maybe millions will be dead by Monday. We don't know the future. Only God knows all that. Jesus loves you no matter what you have done in your life. We've all done bad things, even horrible things. I am no exception. There are many times when I wonder what God ever saw in me that He thought I was worthy of saving. Yet God looked past my sins and forgave those sins when I repented of my sins and followed Him. I'm not a better person than you are. We all have sinned and done terrible things in the eyes of God. Jesus loves you just for who you are. All you have to do is accept Jesus into your life and follow Him and as long as you remain on the straight and narrow path you will never be lost. Keep your focus on Jesus, even when you stumble and and fall like we all do from time to time. I have a strong feeling that for many who live on the earth today, some of those will live to see the coming of the LORD in His glory when He returns to Judge the earth. Don't let things like ANE steal you away from eternal life with Christ. We may not have much time left. Jesus is coming soon and we all need to be prepared for that. As the old Amy Grant song goes: its the now and not the yet. You may not live to become an old man. We don't know what tomorrow brings. Jesus said He would come like a thief in the night. There are also some prophecies that can be interpreted as a nuclear war before Christ returns. I am not going to speak dogmatically about those prophecies because they can be interpreted differently. I just think life is too precious and short to fall victim to the ways of this world. Christ knows you're a sinner. Yet no matter what things you have done He will forgive you and make you His son. For in the end, we who are all in Christ are one family. It doesn't matter what color our skin is or how much we make for a living or how educated or uneducated we are. We are all one family in Christ.

Suggesting that tebel means habitable land, or globe, is fine. But what evidence do you have that ancient Hebrews acknowledged the globe to be of a spherical shape?

You reference Genesis 1:4-5, God separated the day and the night or light and the dark. But there is no evidence that this verse has anything to do with Earth's rotation.

If Genesis said that earth spins thereby having the back of the earth light while the front dark, that would be understandable, but I would say that the verses you quoted have nothing to do with Earth's spin, rather separation of what is basically a form of chaos and disorder from that which is ordered and holy.

Here is a video that describes separation from light and darkness from the bible project, it has nothing to do with rotation of the earth:

And the raqia does not directly mean heavens. That's an incorrect understanding. And this is evidenced by the following verse:

And God said, “Let there be lights in the vaulted dome of heaven to separate day from night, and let them be as signs and for appointed times, and for days and years,
Genesis 1:14 LEB

The firmament of the heavens or raqia of the heavens. The raqia is part of the heavens but it is itself not all of the heavens.

And you said this includes the sky, but God placed the stars in the raqia, so obviously this doesn't mean sky. The waters of the flood came from beyond the raqia, so unless you believe rain travelled through space from millions of light years away, it doesn't mean space either. Not in any modern scientific sense.

Indeed, these verses only make sense in the ANE position in which the firmament is a solid structure immediately above the earth, much like a snow globe, in which stars are pinned into it, in which water is held back by it, in which windows open and close, letting water in and out.

And as I said before, look at every single verse on the firmament in the Old testament and you will see that every single time it is described, it is described as a solid structure. It is not described as a gas or empty space or anything even remotely like this, rather it is solid, as is described by the ANE position.

Given that it is a solid dome, domes rest upon flat land. Ie, the ancient near east hebrews believed in a flat creation, or flat earth/globe.

Lastly, I understand that the OT is inspired by God, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't written by a fallen people. The ancients didn't have 21st century satellite technology. They simply didn't know earth was a sphere.
 
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Ragdoll

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Suggesting that tebel means habitable land, or globe, is fine. But what evidence do you have that ancient Hebrews acknowledged the globe to be of a spherical shape?

Fezzilla already evidenced all this a page or two ago. He has some excellent posts you should go back and read.

You reference Genesis 1:4-5, God separated the day and the night or light and the dark. But there is no evidence that this verse has anything to do with Earth's rotation.

Ancient scholars like Josephus, Clement of Rome, Bishop Ambrose and St.Augustine as well as many reputable modern scholars all agree that it means the earth's first rotation as a sphere. So that issue is solved. I won't listen to these modern liberal woke scholars since they are disingenuous and have an agenda.

SIf Genesis said that earth spins thereby having the back of the earth light while the front dark, that would be understandable, but I would say that the verses you quoted have nothing to do with Earth's spin, rather separation of what is basically a form of chaos and disorder from that which is ordered and holy.

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as he is in all other congregations of the saints" (1Cor.14:33).

God is not the God of confusion and chaos but created the earth in an orderly manner as we see today.

The light God created is the earth's core. The day-night cycle did not reach fruition until Day 4. The day-night cycle is gauged by the earth's rotation. It's the earth's rotation that determines earth standard time. Even today a day is determined by the earth's rotation.

Here is a video that describes separation from light and darkness from the bible project, it has nothing to do with rotation of the earth:

And the raqia does not directly mean heavens. That's an incorrect understanding. And this is evidenced by the following verse:

And God said, “Let there be lights in the vaulted dome of heaven to separate day from night, and let them be as signs and for appointed times, and for days and years,
Genesis 1:14 LEB

The firmament of the heavens or raqia of the heavens. The raqia is part of the heavens but it is itself not all of the heavens.

Not one good translation says vaulted dome. These translations that say dome are done by people who never learned a lick of Hebrew, but made their translation with only a knowledge of English, basing it on other English translations instead of Hebrew or Greek. Not all translations are good ones. Better to use the better translations for clarity.

The video is not done by reputable scholars, nor would any ancient scholars agree with this video's bad theology. My question for you is why would you want to accept bad theology over good theology? You only rob yourself by following these liberal scholars. Stop robbing yourself of knowledge.

"God called the expanse Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day"(Gen.1:8).

Yet in Gen.1:1, God already created the heavens. Is this a contradiction? No it's not. God created the universe in verse 1.

"By faith we understand that the universe was framed by the word of God, so that things that are seen were not made out of things which are visible" (Heb.11:3).

In Gen.1:8, God created an expanse with the end product being the earthly sky and the space between land and sky where air flows. God called the expanse Heaven. On Day 4, God finished the greater expanse of space by creating the sun and stars. Once you understand "expanse" the whole chapter makes perfect sense just as it was intended to.

And you said this includes the sky, but God placed the stars in the raqia, so obviously this doesn't mean sky. The waters of the flood came from beyond the raqia, so unless you believe rain travelled through space from millions of light years away, it doesn't mean space either. Not in any modern scientific sense.

Raqiya, like many other words, are contextually applied. Even in English we have plenty of words that mean different things depending on how we apply them.

Indeed, these verses only make sense in the ANE position in which the firmament is a solid structure immediately above the earth, much like a snow globe, in which stars are pinned into it, in which water is held back by it, in which windows open and close, letting water in and out.

And as I said before, look at every single verse on the firmament in the Old testament and you will see that every single time it is described, it is described as a solid structure. It is not described as a gas or empty space or anything even remotely like this, rather it is solid, as is described by the ANE position.

Given that it is a solid dome, domes rest upon flat land. Ie, the ancient near east hebrews believed in a flat creation, or flat earth/globe.

Lastly, I understand that the OT is inspired by God, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't written by a fallen people. The ancients didn't have 21st century satellite technology. They simply didn't know earth was a sphere.

ANE are not qualified scholars and they can't find a single ancient Jew or Christian who agrees with them. The word "firmament" is Latin and there was no equivalent for the word raqiya in Greek or Latin. That issue is resolved and every Hebraist in the world agrees that raqiya means expanse.

Here is a very fascinating and strong meme I found on a facebook page I follow.

275239904_674303393897053_4743262311063810101_n.jpg


A good translation gives us a better understanding about what was intended. Technically speaking, the sky is stronger than metal. We've lost space shuttles that blew up on reentry.
 
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Job 33:6

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Fezzilla already evidenced all this a page or two ago. He has some excellent posts you should go back and read.



Ancient scholars like Josephus, Clement of Rome, Bishop Ambrose and St.Augustine as well as many reputable modern scholars all agree that it means the earth's first rotation as a sphere. So that issue is solved. I won't listen to these modern liberal woke scholars since they are disingenuous and have an agenda.



"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as he is in all other congregations of the saints" (1Cor.14:33).

God is not the God of confusion and chaos but created the earth in an orderly manner as we see today.

The light God created is the earth's core. The day-night cycle did not reach fruition until Day 4. The day-night cycle is gauged by the earth's rotation. It's the earth's rotation that determines earth standard time. Even today a day is determined by the earth's rotation.



Not one good translation says vaulted dome. These translations that say dome are done by people who never learned a lick of Hebrew, but made their translation with only a knowledge of English, basing it on other English translations instead of Hebrew or Greek. Not all translations are good ones. Better to use the better translations for clarity.

The video is not done by reputable scholars, nor would any ancient scholars agree with this video's bad theology. My question for you is why would you want to accept bad theology over good theology? You only rob yourself by following these liberal scholars. Stop robbing yourself of knowledge.

"God called the expanse Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day"(Gen.1:8).

Yet in Gen.1:1, God already created the heavens. Is this a contradiction? No it's not. God created the universe in verse 1.

"By faith we understand that the universe was framed by the word of God, so that things that are seen were not made out of things which are visible" (Heb.11:3).

In Gen.1:8, God created an expanse with the end product being the earthly sky and the space between land and sky where air flows. God called the expanse Heaven. On Day 4, God finished the greater expanse of space by creating the sun and stars. Once you understand "expanse" the whole chapter makes perfect sense just as it was intended to.



Raqiya, like many other words, are contextually applied. Even in English we have plenty of words that mean different things depending on how we apply them.



ANE are not qualified scholars and they can't find a single ancient Jew or Christian who agrees with them. The word "firmament" is Latin and there was no equivalent for the word raqiya in Greek or Latin. That issue is resolved and every Hebraist in the world agrees that raqiya means expanse.

Here is a very fascinating and strong meme I found on a facebook page I follow.

View attachment 315523

A good translation gives us a better understanding about what was intended. Technically speaking, the sky is stronger than metal. We've lost space shuttles that blew up on reentry.

Your response doesn't reference scripture, it's all just personal opinion.

As noted before, scripture explicitly describes the raqia as having solid-state properties.

Some of the clearest examples involve the floodgates or windows of the firmament which restrain waters of Noah's flood. The windows open, the waters are released, then later in Genesis the windows close and the waters are restrained.

The raqia is further described as like frozen water, like ice, like sapphire (stone), like pavement, like molten metal etc.

It's quite obviously a solid structure being described in the OT. And if you have a problem with what scripture says, then you will just have to take it up with God. And there's not much I can do for you.

And yes there are several credentialed translations that use the word "dome" and there are numerous scholars that acknowledge the raqia as being thought of as a solid structure. One of the more popular OT scholars describing this would be Claus Westermann. Paul Seelys publication on the topic is a short and easy read and is quite simple to understand, it is titled "the firmament and the waters above" published by Westminster Theological Seminary.

The Firmament of Genesis 1 is Solid but That’s Not the Point - Articles

And it's not liberal or woke theology. It's just what scripture says.

And God said, “Let there be a vaulted dome in the midst of the waters, and let it cause a separation between the waters.” So God made the vaulted dome, and he caused a separation between the waters which were under the vaulted dome and between the waters which were over the vaulted dome. And it was so.
Genesis 1:6‭-‬7 LEB
Genesis 1:6-7 And God said, “Let there be a vaulted dome in the midst of the waters, and let it cause a separation between the waters.” So God made the vaulted dome, and he caused a separation between the waters wh | Lexham English Bible (LEB) | Download The Bible App Now

In the six hundredth year of the life of Noah, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month—on that day all the springs of the great deep were split open, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain came upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
Genesis 7:11‭-‬12 LEB
Genesis 7:11-12 In the six hundredth year of the life of Noah, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month—on that day all the springs of the great deep were split open, and the windows of heaven were op | Lexham English Bible (LEB) | Download The Bible App Now

And the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, and the rain from the heavens was restrained.
Genesis 8:2 LEB
Genesis 8:2 And the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, and the rain from the heavens was restrained. | Lexham English Bible (LEB) | Download The Bible App Now

And they saw the God of Israel, and what was under his feet was like sapphire tile work and like the very heavens for clearness.
Exodus 24:10 LEB
Exodus 24:10 And they saw the God of Israel, and what was under his feet was like sapphire tile work and like the very heavens for clearness. | Lexham English Bible (LEB) | Download The Bible App Now

Now the likeness above the heads of the living creatures was an expanse like the outward appearance of awesome ice spread out above their heads upward.
Ezekiel 1:22 LEB
Ezekiel 1:22 Now the likeness above the heads of the living creatures was an expanse like the outward appearance of awesome ice spread out above their heads upward. | Lexham English Bible (LEB) | Download The Bible App Now

with him can you spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?
Job 37:18 LEB
Job 37:18 with him can you spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror? | Lexham English Bible (LEB) | Download The Bible App Now

That's why it's called "firm"ament, firm as in solid, and raqia/expanse is a word which holds ties to sumarian language describing the spreading of metal or aluminum. That's why it's called "expanse" as in the expanding of molten metal when hammering it. Which is exactly why Job says "like molten metal".

It's not woke, it's just what scripture says. The dome is solid, and if you don't like it, take it up with Job.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Your response doesn't reference scripture, it's all just personal opinion.

As noted before, scripture explicitly describes the raqia as having solid-state properties.

Some of the clearest examples involve the floodgates or windows of the firmament which restrain waters of Noah's flood. The windows open, the waters are released, then later in Genesis the windows close and the waters are restrained.

The raqia is further described as like frozen water, like ice, like sapphire (stone), like pavement, like molten metal etc.

It's quite obviously a solid structure being described in the OT. And if you have a problem with what scripture says, then you will just have to take it up with God. And there's not much I can do for you.

And yes there are several credentialed translations that use the word "dome" and there are numerous scholars that acknowledge the raqia as being thought of as a solid structure. One of the more popular OT scholars describing this would be Claus Westermann. Paul Seelys publication on the topic is a short and easy read and is quite simple to understand, it is titled "the firmament and the waters above" published by Westminster Theological Seminary.

The Firmament of Genesis 1 is Solid but That’s Not the Point - Articles

And it's not liberal or woke theology. It's just what scripture says.

And God said, “Let there be a vaulted dome in the midst of the waters, and let it cause a separation between the waters.” So God made the vaulted dome, and he caused a separation between the waters which were under the vaulted dome and between the waters which were over the vaulted dome. And it was so.
Genesis 1:6‭-‬7 LEB
Genesis 1:6-7 And God said, “Let there be a vaulted dome in the midst of the waters, and let it cause a separation between the waters.” So God made the vaulted dome, and he caused a separation between the waters wh | Lexham English Bible (LEB) | Download The Bible App Now

In the six hundredth year of the life of Noah, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month—on that day all the springs of the great deep were split open, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain came upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
Genesis 7:11‭-‬12 LEB
Genesis 7:11-12 In the six hundredth year of the life of Noah, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month—on that day all the springs of the great deep were split open, and the windows of heaven were op | Lexham English Bible (LEB) | Download The Bible App Now

And the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, and the rain from the heavens was restrained.
Genesis 8:2 LEB
Genesis 8:2 And the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, and the rain from the heavens was restrained. | Lexham English Bible (LEB) | Download The Bible App Now

And they saw the God of Israel, and what was under his feet was like sapphire tile work and like the very heavens for clearness.
Exodus 24:10 LEB
Exodus 24:10 And they saw the God of Israel, and what was under his feet was like sapphire tile work and like the very heavens for clearness. | Lexham English Bible (LEB) | Download The Bible App Now
You err.
Enoch the prophet, the seventh from Adam was taken on a tour of all creation by Watcher angels, and he wrote down the complete paths of the sun, moon and stars in their daily, monthly and yearly rotations around the geocentric global earth.
The oldest known complete Bible in the world was hand written in Ethiopia about 500 AD. it contains the Book of Enoch, which the Hebrews of Ethiopia brought with them from Israel, even before Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the temple.
The Book of Enoch was known and read by the Jews of Jesus' time on earth, and the Jews kept the Enochian calendar until the Babylonian captivity, and in error, kept the Babylonian one after they returned to Israel.
Enoch' Geocentric calendar is on this page:
Chapter 33 begins the Geocentric calendar teaching.
Messianic Prophecy and the Book of Enoch
 
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You err.
Enoch the prophet, the seventh from Adam was taken on a tour of all creation by Watcher angels, and he wrote down the complete paths of the sun, moon and stars in their daily, monthly and yearly rotations around the geocentric global earth.
The oldest known complete Bible in the world was hand written in Ethiopia about 500 AD. it contains the Book of Enoch, which the Hebrews of Ethiopia brought with them from Israel, even before Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the temple.
The Book of Enoch was known and read by the Jews of Jesus' time on earth, and the Jews kept the Enochian calendar until the Babylonian captivity, and in error, kept the Babylonian one after they returned to Israel.
Enoch' Geocentric calendar is on this page:
Chapter 33 begins the Geocentric calendar teaching.
Messianic Prophecy and the Book of Enoch

So what exactly is it that you're trying to show me? Geocentrism doesn't necessarily contrast with the idea that the earth is flat.
 
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Job 33:6

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Why would God tell a lie? The earth is a sphere which is clearly taught in Scripture. Why would Proverbs 8:27 say the earth is flat while Proverbs 8:31 says its a globe?

"As for the rounde compase of his worlde, I make it ioyfull: for my delyte is to be among the chyldren of men" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

The word is Strong's H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl which means "the habitable globe."

✅Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon
View attachment 250126

Here is 4th century Bishop Ambrose reading from Isaiah 40:22.

"And further on: 'Who sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts, who stretcheth out the heavens as an arch?' Who, then, ventures to put his knowledge in the same plane with that of God?” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron" The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, p.231).

So why would chuwg mean flat earth in Proverbs 8:27 but globe in Isaiah 40:22?

✅Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon
View attachment 250127




The "ends of the earth" is an ancient expression which means the far reaches of the earth and its extremities. Jeremiah 51:15 says the earth is a globe and contextually reads the same as Isaiah 40:22.

"Yea euen the Lorde of hostes, that wyth his power made the earthe, with hys wysedome prepared the rounde worlde, and with his discrecyon spred oute the heauens" (1537 Matthew's Bible).



"He reyseth vp the poore out of the duste, and lyfteth vp the begger from the dong hill: to set them among princes, and to enheret them with the seate of glory. For the pyllers of the earth are the Lordes, and he hath set the rounde worlde vpon them" (1537 Matthew-Tyndale Bible).

"Raising up the weak from the dust, he will raise up the needy from the dung-hill to sit with the noble, and he will cause them to inherit a throne of glory, for to Jehovah the castings of the earth, and he will put the habitable globe upon them" (1876 Julia E. Smith Bible).

Here again the word tebel is used which means "the habitable globe." The pillars of the earth in this verse means saints.

"And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen" (Revelation 1:6).




Job 26:7 נטה צפון על תהו תלה ארץ על בלי מה׃

"He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing" (KJV).

Corpus of Translations:

"Which God stretchith forth the north on voide thing, and hangith the erthe on nouyt" (1382 Wycliffe Bible).

"He stretcheth out ye north ouer the emptie, & hageth ye earth vpo nothinge" (1535 Coverdale Bible).

"He stretched oute the north ouer the emptie, & hangeth the earth vpon nothinge" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

"He stretcheth out the north ouer the emptie, and hangeth the earth vpon nothing" (1539 Great Bible).

"He stretcheth out the noorth ouer the emptie place, and hangeth the earth vpon nothing" (1568 Bishop's Bible).

"He stretches out the North over empty space,
and suspends the earth over nothing at all" (NAB).

"He stretches out the north over the void
and hangs the earth on nothing" (ESV).

"He stretched out the north over the empty space, and hangeth the earth upon nothing" (Douay-Rheims Bible).

"He stretches out the north over empty space
And hangs the earth on nothing" (NASB).

"He stretches out the north over empty space,
He hangs the earth upon nothing" (MEV).

"He spreads out the northern skies over empty space;
he suspends the earth over nothing" (NIV).

"He stretches out the north over empty space;
He hangs the earth on nothing" (NKJV).

"God stretches the northern sky over empty space
and hangs the earth on nothing" (NLT).

"He stretches out the north over the void,
and hangs the earth upon nothing" (RSV).

"Stretching out the north over desolation, Hanging the earth upon nothing" (YLT).

"He stretches the north over chaos
and suspends the earth on nothing" (Complete Jewish Bible).
=================================================
Hebrew Lexicons:

The word "hangeth" found in the KJV is the Hebrew word תָּלָה.

The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:

"H8518. תָּלָה tâlâh, taw-law'; a primitive root; to suspend (especially to gibbet):—hang [25x], hang up [3x]. See: TWOT -- 2512; BDB -- 1067d"

Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament:

TWOT: "2512 תָּלָה (tâlâh) hang. (ASV and RSV similar.)
". . . The verb means basically "to hand," whether a utensil on a peg (Isa 22:24; Ezk 15:3), weapons on a wall ((Ezk 27:10f., both Piel: Song 4:4), or a lyre on a tree (Ps 137:2). Job 26:7 strikingly pictures the then-known world as suspended in space, thereby anticipating future scientific discovery, when it states that God "hangs the earth upon nothing." Other (more grisly) examples of the verb may be seen in Lam 5:12 (Niphal); 11 Sam 4:12; 18:10."


New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, Vol.4: תָּלָה (tlh), hang (#9434),

". . . 5. Hanging or suspending other objects. These include harps, which are hung on poplars by the disconsolate exiles (Ps 137:2), a variety of things that can be hung on a wooden peg (yated, --> # 3845; Ezk 15:3), and the earth, which is hung by God "over nothing" (Job 26:7).

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon
View attachment 250128
============================================
Bible Commentaries On Job 26:7

Believer's Bible Commentary:

"26:5-13 The rest of the chapter gives a marvelous description of God's power in the universe: the evaporation/precipitation cycle; the density of the clouds; the cycle of light and darkness; the storm at sea; and the stars and constellations by which His Spirit has adorned the heavens.
While Bildad stressed God's glory in the heavens, Job here dwells on His power in the depths: under the waters, Sheol, and Destruction.
Job desccribes--centuries before science taught it--that God hangs the earth on nothing (which is a poetic depiction of the earth's position and movement in the solar system).
How immeasurably above the cosmogonies of the heathen philosophers are these few grand words! In them we have as in germ the discoveries of a Newton and a Keppler. It is a great mistake to think Scripture does not teach scientific truth. It teaches all needed truth, even if not in scientific language. yet with scientific accuracy" [Ridout, Job, pp.133, 134].


Jamieson, Fausset & Brown Commentary on the Whole Bible,

"7. Hint of the true theory of the earth. Its suspension in empty space is stated in the second clause. The north in particular is specified in the first, being believed to be the highest part of the earth ( Isaiah 14:13 ). The northern hemisphere or vault of heaven is included; often compared to a stretched-out canopy ( Psalms 104:2 ). The chambers of the south are mentioned ( Job 9:9 ), that is, the southern hemisphere, consistently with the earth's globular form."

Matthew Henry's Commentary,

"(1.) He hangs the earth upon nothing, v. 7. The vast terraqueous globe neither rests upon any pillars nor hangs upon any axle-tree, and yet, by the almighty power of God, is firmly fixed in its place, poised with its own weight. The art of man could not hang a feather upon nothing, yet the divine wisdom hangs the whole earth so. It is ponderibus librata suis—poised by its own weight, so says the poet; it is upheld by the word of God’s power, so says the apostle. What is hung upon nothing may serve us to set our feet on, and bear the weight of our bodies, but it will never serve us to set our hearts on, nor bear the weight of our souls."

The Expositor's Bible Commentary (Abridged Edition),

“7-8 The word “skies” is a justifiable insertion in v.7. Although Saphon means “north” (GK 7600), the verb “spreads out” is never used of the earth but if often used in reference to the heavens (cf.9:8). This imagery is continued by the words “over empty space.” It is not difficult to postulate what “empty space” might be intended by Job if he were referring to a northern region of the earth where the majestic mountains rise.
Job was pointing to God’s power as incomprehensible. The heavens are visible yet, they do not fall to earth; there is no visible means of support. Even the earth itself can be said to hang on nothing. That God spread out the heavens over empty space, hang the earth on nothing, and fill the clouds with water without bursting is intended to make us stand in awe. Job was boldly expressing in poetic terms the marvelous and majestic power of God.”


Ancient Christian Commentary On Scripture: Old Testament XI -- Job,

"26:7-9 God Suspends the World on Nothing
Rain Useful To The Whole Created Order. Olympiodorus [ the Deacon ]: "He stretches out the north wind upon nothing, and he upon nothing hangs the earth." Indeed the support of the earth is nothing but an understructure, but it is suspended and is sustained by Divine will. . . . " (brackets mine).

================================================
† St.Ambrose (340 – 397),

Here is a lengthy quote which answers criticism from flat earthers. Ambrose quotes from Job 26:7 as well as explains it when he says "Let others hold approvingly that the earth never will fall, because it keeps its position in the midst of the world in accordance with nature."

"“How the disposition of the earth therefore depends upon the power of God, you may learn also where it is written: ‘He looketh upon the earth and maketh it tremble,’ and elsewhere: ‘One again I move the earth.’ Therefore, the earth remains immovable not by its balances, but is moved frequently by the nod and free will of God, as Job, too, says: ‘The Lord shaketh it from its foundations, and the pillars thereof tremble.’ And elsewhere: ‘Hell is naked before him and there is no covering for death. He stretched out the north over the empty space and hangeth the earth upon nothing. He bindeth up the waters in his clouds. The pillars of heaven fled away and are in dread at his rebuke. By his power the seas are calmed, by his wisdom is struck down the sea-monster, and the gates of heaven fear him.’
By the will of God, therefore, the earth remains immovable. ‘The earth standeth for ever,’ according to Ecclesiastes, yet is moved and nods according to the will of God. It does not therefore continue to exist because based on its own foundation. It does not stay stable because based on its own props. The Lord established it by the support of His will, because ‘in his hand are all the ends of the earth.’ The simplicity of this faith is worth all the proffered proofs.
Let others hold approvingly that the earth never will fall, because it keeps its position in the midst of the world in accordance with nature. They maintain that it is from necessity that the earth remains in its place and is not inclined in another direction, as long as it does not move contrary to nature but in accordance with it. Let them take occasion to magnify the excellence of their divine Artist and eternal Craftsman. What artist is not indebted to Him? ‘Who gave to women the knowledge of weaving or the understanding of embroidery?’ However, I who am unable to comprehend the excellence of His majesty and His art do not entrust myself to theoretical weights and measures. Rather, I believe that all things depend on His will, which is the foundation of the universe and because of which the world endures up to the present” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron," The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, pp.22-23).


Ambrose is saying that the earth will not fall or move out or away from the laws God ordained for it.

So let there be no mistake, Ambrose knows the earth is a globe and that it is suspended in space over nothing. The earth is said to be held up by God's will. Clement of Rome also says this:

“Thus, by His transcendent might He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible understanding He ordered them: the earth He separated from the water now encircling it, and firmly grounded it on the unshakable foundation of His own will” (33:3).

The waters are encircling the earth and its foundation is grounded on God's will, which means the earth is held up by nothing other than God's will. God's will being the laws He ordained for it.

I would say that none of the above actually suggests a spherical earth. "Round compass", well, compasses make round circles on flat paper. That's what a compass does. Anyone ever take an art class or remember 5th grade geometry where you attach a pencil to the side of a compass and you use it to draw a flat circle? That's what these verses in the old testament are describing, theyre describing a flat disk-like earth with a solid dome over it like a snow globe.

"Who sits above the circle of the earth" Isaiah 40:22, again, compasses make circles on flat paper. Jeremiah 51:15 doesn't say anything about Earth's shape, so I'm not sure why anyone would think this verse says that earth is spherical.

Proverbs 8:27

Verses were noted about the earth hanging on nothing or being suspended. That's all fine and dandy but again says nothing about Earth's shape.

Reference is made to tebel, often translated as the habitable earth or habitable world or land, but none of these actually give any indication of what shape the earth/world/land is. In the 21st century we know that earth is spherical, but we can't baselessly project our 21st century understanding of the universe onto the old testament.

To be clear, I don't believe earth is flat, but I think it's quite obvious that the ancient Hebrews from 3000 years ago who didn't have modern satellite technology and who were inspired by God but nevertheless were the authors of Genesis and were imperfect human beings, they did believe it was flat.

POLL: Did the ancient Hebrews believe that the earth was flat?
 
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yeshuasavedme

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So what exactly is it that you're trying to show me? Geocentrism doesn't necessarily contrast with the idea that the earth is flat.
Genesis 1 shows the order of creation, and Enoch wrote the firmament was suspended before the earth was created, and in Genesis 1 we see the not yet named, and dark, heaven revolving in the circle around the not yet named earth and light called into being and revolving in the circle around the not yet named earth. We then see the not yet named heavens stretched out, with the created light in them, and still circling the not yet named earth (just a globe of primal not yet named waters), with fully one half of the globe of primal waters stretched out above the not yet named heavens above the divided waters of the globe.
We see the stretched out "firmament" (of His powers, as stated later) then named "Two Waters, Hebrew "ShaMayim", and in English, "Heavens".
There was no sun, no moon, but the Light stretched out, from earth, with the revolving around the globe heavens, until day 4.
The sun governs the light by day, but it is not that light.
The stretched out above the one half of the primal waters of the globe are still above the heavens, and the heavens still revolve around the globe, which was not named earth until the half the primal waters under the stretched out heavens were called to gather together in one place, and the "dry" to come out of the primal waters. The Dry was named ""Earth" at that time, and it was still a globe and the heavens still revoled around the globe...
Enoch shows the ordinances of the heavens and how they move in their paths, around the earth which is a globe, and are the ordained signs for days, weeks, months and years.
The earth never moves, but it will in the tribulation, as Enoch, Isaiah, and John write.
The heavens circle the earth each day.
The sun, moon and stars/constellations do not vary from their ordained paths, and keep perfect calendars from the beginning.
 
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Job 33:6

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Genesis 1 shows the order of creation, and Enoch wrote the firmament was suspended before the earth was created

Genesis 1 clearly says that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and then only later does God create the firmament after earth is made. But even if the firmament was suspended beforehand, what does that have to do with the shape of earth?

, and in Genesis 1 we see the not yet named, and dark, heaven revolving in the circle around the not yet named earth and light called into being and revolving in the circle around the not yet named earth.

Still nothing on the shape of earth.

We then see the not yet named heavens stretched out, with the created light in them, and still circling the not yet named earth (just a globe of primal not yet named waters), with fully one half of the globe of primal waters stretched out above the not yet named heavens above the divided waters of the globe.

Still nothing about the shape of earth.

We see the stretched out "firmament" (of His powers, as stated later) then named "Two Waters, Hebrew "ShaMayim", and in English, "Heavens".
There was no sun, no moon, but the Light stretched out, from earth, with the revolving around the globe heavens, until day 4.
The sun governs the light by day, but it is not that light.
The stretched out above the one half of the primal waters of the globe are still above the heavens, and the heavens still revolve around the globe, which was not named earth until the half the primal waters under the stretched out heavens were called to gather together in one place, and the "dry" to come out of the primal waters. The Dry was named ""Earth" at thst time, and it was still a globe and the heavens still revoled around the globe...

Still nothing about the shape of earth.

Just because something revolves around earth doesn't mean that it's not being described or thought of as flat. The sun revolves around a piece of paper on my desk and that's flat regardless of what revolves around it.

Enoch shows the ordinances of the heavens and how they move in their paths, around the earth which is a globe, and are tbe ordained signs for days, weeks, months and years.
The earth never moves, but it will in the tribulation, as Enoch, Isaiah, and John write.
The heavens circle the earth each day.
The sun, moon and stars/constellations do not vary from their ordained paths, and keep perfect calendars from the beginning.

None of this has anything to do with the shape of earth. As noted above, just because things move around earth, this doesn't somehow make earth not flat in regards to how scripture is describing it.
 
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Ragdoll

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Your response doesn't reference scripture, it's all just personal opinion.

Are you actually reading my posts, or are you being impolite and just skimming the points and rushing to your next reply? I did reference Scripture as well as reference another member who also referenced Scripture. I'm sure out of 9 pages there are many others here who also referenced Scripture.

As noted before, scripture explicitly describes the raqia as having solid-state properties.

And as I noted before, there is not a single Hebraist in the world who agrees with you. So perhaps we need to get the correct definition down from real Hebrew scholars accepted by the entire Christian Church.


The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible - H7549 רָקִיעַ râqîyaʻ

"H7549. רָקִיעַ râqîyaʻ, raw-kee'-ah; from H7554; properly, an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky:—firmament.
(1) Raqiya means that which is fixed and steadfast, rather than that which is solid. (1a) The application to the heavenly bodies is simple and beautful: (1b) they are not fickle and uncertain in their movements, but are regulated by a law that they cannot pass over. (2) It comes from raqa (7554) which means spread out. The firmament, then is that which is spread or stretched out--hence an expanse. Thus it is extended and fixed, or fixed space. (3) The interplanetary spaces are measured out by God, and though the stars are ever moving, they generally preserve fixed relative positions; their movements are not erratic, not in straight lines, but in orbits, and thus, though ever changing, they are always the same."

Some of the clearest examples involve the floodgates or windows of the firmament which restrain waters of Noah's flood. The windows open, the waters are released, then later in Genesis the windows close and the waters are restrained.

That says nothing about a solid dome. You are assuming this. This assumption is based on 20th century liberal ideology and not on traditional theology.

The raqia is further described as like frozen water, like ice, like sapphire (stone), like pavement, like molten metal etc.

Here again you are assuming while not quoting any Scripture. I do know what verses you are talking about but you are assuming a meaning that isn't there.

It's quite obviously a solid structure being described in the OT. And if you have a problem with what scripture says, then you will just have to take it up with God. And there's not much I can do for you.

There is nothing obvious about that at all. There are at least 68 globe earth verses in the Bible. Scripture interprets Scripture. With all those globe earth verses, how is it you cannot understand that the way you are trying to define raqiya is a half-sphere and not a full sphere as Scripture clearly says? You want to talk Scripture here but you are deviating from fundamental rules of exegesis. Scripture interprets Scripture. There is no contradiction about it. Scripture does not teach flat earth (or half-sphere) in Gen.1:6-8 and then teach globe earth in Gen.1:4-5 and numerous other verses in the Bible. Even Psalm 90:2 is a globe earth verse and that Psalm was written by Moses.

And yes there are several credentialed translations that use the word "dome" and there are numerous scholars that acknowledge the raqia as being thought of as a solid structure.

All those translations are rejected by Christians. They are liberal translations and there is no liberalism in theology. Only traditional scholarship is acceptable. I will not accept anything other than real Bible scholars.

One of the more popular OT scholars describing this would be Claus Westermann. Paul Seelys publication on the topic is a short and easy read and is quite simple to understand, it is titled "the firmament and the waters above" published by Westminster Theological Seminary.

The Firmament of Genesis 1 is Solid but That’s Not the Point - Articles

And it's not liberal or woke theology. It's just what scripture says.

They are not Bible scholars. The entire Christian body rejects them as their own. Again, no liberal can be a Bible scholars because the Biblical theology is not subject to liberalism. Its strictly a conservative discipline. This is theology 101. 2000 years of scholarship does not agree with liberalism applied to the Bible. In fact, there are a few mentions of this in prophecy. I can't recall each verse and passage, but such liberalism in the last days is mentioned in prophecy. Here is one verse that I can remember at the top of my head:


2 Timothy 4:3-4

"3 For the time will come when people will not endure sound doctrine, but they will gather to themselves teachers in accordance with their own desires, having itching ears, 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn to myths."

This is a reference to liberalism applied to the Bible.

And God said, “Let there be a vaulted dome in the midst of the waters, and let it cause a separation between the waters.” So God made the vaulted dome, and he caused a separation between the waters which were under the vaulted dome and between the waters which were over the vaulted dome. And it was so.
Genesis 1:6‭-‬7 LEB
Genesis 1:6-7 And God said, “Let there be a vaulted dome in the midst of the waters, and let it cause a separation between the waters.” So God made the vaulted dome, and he caused a separation between the waters wh | Lexham English Bible (LEB) | Download The Bible App Now

The Bible does not say that. There is no vaulted dome mentioned in Scripture. This LEB Bible is a liberal translation which is not authentic or approved by any real Scholars. Again, the correct word is expanse just as defined in the Strong's.

In the six hundredth year of the life of Noah, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month—on that day all the springs of the great deep were split open, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain came upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
Genesis 7:11‭-‬12 LEB
Genesis 7:11-12 In the six hundredth year of the life of Noah, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month—on that day all the springs of the great deep were split open, and the windows of heaven were op | Lexham English Bible (LEB) | Download The Bible App Now
https://bible.com/bible/90/gen.7.11-12.LEB

This says nothing about a flat earth or dome.

And the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, and the rain from the heavens was restrained.
Genesis 8:2 LEB
Genesis 8:2 And the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, and the rain from the heavens was restrained. | Lexham English Bible (LEB) | Download The Bible App Now

This says nothing about a dome or flat earth.

And they saw the God of Israel, and what was under his feet was like sapphire tile work and like the very heavens for clearness.
Exodus 24:10 LEB
Exodus 24:10 And they saw the God of Israel, and what was under his feet was like sapphire tile work and like the very heavens for clearness. | Lexham English Bible (LEB) | Download The Bible App Now

This definitely does not say anything about a dome or flat earth.

Now the likeness above the heads of the living creatures was an expanse like the outward appearance of awesome ice spread out above their heads upward.
Ezekiel 1:22 LEB
Ezekiel 1:22 Now the likeness above the heads of the living creatures was an expanse like the outward appearance of awesome ice spread out above their heads upward. | Lexham English Bible (LEB) | Download The Bible App Now

Says nothing about a flat earth or a dome.


Helps when you use a good translation on this one. All the scholars I know are genuine scholars and they all agree in unison that the 1537 Matthew's Bible is the overall best English translation of the Holy Bible. When we look at that translation we get a clearer picture of what Scripture actually says. I posted this in my last reply and you missed it?

275239904_674303393897053_4743262311063810101_n.jpg


Do you see the difference in translation? When we use a good translation of the Bible we learn more about Scripture than by using a corrupt translation translated by atheists who have no knowledge of the languages of the Bible.

That's why it's called "firm"ament, firm as in solid, and raqia/expanse is a word which holds ties to sumarian language describing the spreading of metal or aluminum. That's why it's called "expanse" as in the expanding of molten metal when hammering it. Which is exactly why Job says "like molten metal".

Firmament and expanse do not share the same definition. They are not the same word. The word firmament doesn't even exist in the Bible. That's right. It's nowhere to be found. At least when you are reading it in Hebrew. The word isn't found. The definition is found nowhere. Firmament was used because there was no Latin equivalent for raqiya. Today, all Hebraists know this.

It's not woke, it's just what scripture says. The dome is solid, and if you don't like it, take it up with Job.

The Job verse does not say the expanse is literally made of metal. You are reading a corrupt translation. Unfortunately, there are a number of translations out there not good for reading or study.

The Hebrew word chuwg geometrically describes a sphere. This word in used in verses like Job 26:10, Isaiah 40:21 and Proverbs 8:27. The word tebel means the habitable globe. Here is a good example of how both words are used in Proverbs chapter 8:


Proverbs 8:26 - têbêl
Proverbs 8:27 - chûwg
Proverbs 8:31 - têbêl

There is no contradiction here. Both words mean globe. So with the shape of the earth according to Scripture being so firmly understood as a globe/sphere, then why would you be reading bad translations from bad scholars who somehow get flat dome earth out of one word in the Bible? Could it possibly be that you simply have fallen for bad scholars who are not teaching you real theology? Could it be that the contradiction in how you interpret the Bible says there is something amiss with your interpretation and not with the Bible itself? Over 68 globe earth verses in the Bible and you want to focus on one word that does not mean what you think it does.

Please be reasonable about how you apply logical and reason here. Your interpretation is a contradition of tebel and chuwg. But there is no contradition. You just have the wrong understanding of it due to trusting liberalism over sound doctrine. You are being robbed of the truth by trusting pseudoscholars.
 
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Job 33:6

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Are you actually reading my posts, or are you being impolite and just skimming the points and rushing to your next reply? I did reference Scripture as well as reference another member who also referenced Scripture. I'm sure out of 9 pages there are many others here who also referenced Scripture.



And as I noted before, there is not a single Hebraist in the world who agrees with you. So perhaps we need to get the correct definition down from real Hebrew scholars accepted by the entire Christian Church.


The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible - H7549 רָקִיעַ râqîyaʻ

"H7549. רָקִיעַ râqîyaʻ, raw-kee'-ah; from H7554; properly, an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky:—firmament.
(1) Raqiya means that which is fixed and steadfast, rather than that which is solid. (1a) The application to the heavenly bodies is simple and beautful: (1b) they are not fickle and uncertain in their movements, but are regulated by a law that they cannot pass over. (2) It comes from raqa (7554) which means spread out. The firmament, then is that which is spread or stretched out--hence an expanse. Thus it is extended and fixed, or fixed space. (3) The interplanetary spaces are measured out by God, and though the stars are ever moving, they generally preserve fixed relative positions; their movements are not erratic, not in straight lines, but in orbits, and thus, though ever changing, they are always the same."



That says nothing about a solid dome. You are assuming this. This assumption is based on 20th century liberal ideology and not on traditional theology.



Here again you are assuming while not quoting any Scripture. I do know what verses you are talking about but you are assuming a meaning that isn't there.



There is nothing obvious about that at all. There are at least 68 globe earth verses in the Bible. Scripture interprets Scripture. With all those globe earth verses, how is it you cannot understand that the way you are trying to define raqiya is a half-sphere and not a full sphere as Scripture clearly says? You want to talk Scripture here but you are deviating from fundamental rules of exegesis. Scripture interprets Scripture. There is no contradiction about it. Scripture does not teach flat earth (or half-sphere) in Gen.1:6-8 and then teach globe earth in Gen.1:4-5 and numerous other verses in the Bible. Even Psalm 90:2 is a globe earth verse and that Psalm was written by Moses.



All those translations are rejected by Christians. They are liberal translations and there is no liberalism in theology. Only traditional scholarship is acceptable. I will not accept anything other than real Bible scholars.



They are not Bible scholars. The entire Christian body rejects them as their own. Again, no liberal can be a Bible scholars because the Biblical theology is not subject to liberalism. Its strictly a conservative discipline. This is theology 101. 2000 years of scholarship does not agree with liberalism applied to the Bible. In fact, there are a few mentions of this in prophecy. I can't recall each verse and passage, but such liberalism in the last days is mentioned in prophecy. Here is one verse that I can remember at the top of my head:


2 Timothy 4:3-4

"3 For the time will come when people will not endure sound doctrine, but they will gather to themselves teachers in accordance with their own desires, having itching ears, 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn to myths."

This is a reference to liberalism applied to the Bible.



The Bible does not say that. There is no vaulted dome mentioned in Scripture. This LEB Bible is a liberal translation which is not authentic or approved by any real Scholars. Again, the correct word is expanse just as defined in the Strong's.


This says nothing about a flat earth or dome.



This says nothing about a dome or flat earth.



This definitely does not say anything about a dome or flat earth.



Says nothing about a flat earth or a dome.



Helps when you use a good translation on this one. All the scholars I know are genuine scholars and they all agree in unison that the 1537 Matthew's Bible is the overall best English translation of the Holy Bible. When we look at that translation we get a clearer picture of what Scripture actually says. I posted this in my last reply and you missed it?

View attachment 315539

Do you see the difference in translation? When we use a good translation of the Bible we learn more about Scripture than by using a corrupt translation translated by atheists who have no knowledge of the languages of the Bible.



Firmament and expanse do not share the same definition. They are not the same word. The word firmament doesn't even exist in the Bible. That's right. It's nowhere to be found. At least when you are reading it in Hebrew. The word isn't found. The definition is found nowhere. Firmament was used because there was no Latin equivalent for raqiya. Today, all Hebraists know this.



The Job verse does not say the expanse is literally made of metal. You are reading a corrupt translation. Unfortunately, there are a number of translations out there not good for reading or study.

The Hebrew word chuwg geometrically describes a sphere. This word in used in verses like Job 26:10, Isaiah 40:21 and Proverbs 8:27. The word tebel means the habitable globe. Here is a good example of how both words are used in Proverbs chapter 8:


Proverbs 8:26 - têbêl
Proverbs 8:27 - chûwg
Proverbs 8:31 - têbêl

There is no contradiction here. Both words mean globe. So with the shape of the earth according to Scripture being so firmly understood as a globe/sphere, then why would you be reading bad translations from bad scholars who somehow get flat dome earth out of one word in the Bible? Could it possibly be that you simply have fallen for bad scholars who are not teaching you real theology? Could it be that the contradiction in how you interpret the Bible says there is something amiss with your interpretation and not with the Bible itself? Over 68 globe earth verses in the Bible and you want to focus on one word that does not mean what you think it does.

Please be reasonable about how you apply logical and reason here. Your interpretation is a contradition of tebel and chuwg. But there is no contradition. You just have the wrong understanding of it due to trusting liberalism over sound doctrine. You are being robbed of the truth by trusting pseudoscholars.

I'll just focus on on this one point to simplify the discussion.

Isaiah 41:10 said: ↑
Some of the clearest examples involve the floodgates or windows of the firmament which restrain waters of Noah's flood. The windows open, the waters are released, then later in Genesis the windows close and the waters are restrained.

Your response: That says nothing about a solid dome. You are assuming this. This assumption is based on 20th century liberal ideology and not on traditional theology

How can flood gates, which open and close, restrain water if they do not have solid properties?

POLL: Did the ancient Hebrews believe that the earth was flat?

And I agree that the verses don't describe the shape of the earth, however they do imply the existence of a solid dome. Which is a product of ANE and thus reflects a flat earth (because a dome rests upon a flat land).

And it's not woke or liberal theology. It's just what scripture says.
Link: Wayback Machine

Also, there are several credible translations that use the word "dome" for raqia. Simply calling them all liberal isn't a valid response. It's not my fault that Job and Ezekiel and Moses of Exodus and Genesis, happened to use adjectives "like frozen water", like "ice", like "sapphire", like "pavement" which God walks on in human form, in which God's throne rests above yet in which stars are placed within and like "molten metal" to describe the raqia. Job wasn't woke, scripture just says what it says.
 
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Ragdoll

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I'll just focus on on this one point to simplify the discussion.

Isaiah 41:10 said: ↑
Some of the clearest examples involve the floodgates or windows of the firmament which restrain waters of Noah's flood. The windows open, the waters are released, then later in Genesis the windows close and the waters are restrained.

Your response: That says nothing about a solid dome. You are assuming this. This assumption is based on 20th century liberal ideology and not on traditional theology

How can flood gates, which open and close, restrain water if they do not have solid properties?

POLL: Did the ancient Hebrews believe that the earth was flat?

And I agree that the verses don't describe the shape of the earth, however they do imply the existence of a solid dome. Which is a product of ANE and thus reflects a flat earth (because a dome rests upon a flat land).

And it's not woke or liberal theology. It's just what scripture says.
Link: Wayback Machine

Also, there are several credible translations that use the word "dome" for raqia. Simply calling them all liberal isn't a valid response. It's not my fault that Job and Ezekiel and Moses of Exodus and Genesis, happened to use adjectives "like frozen water", like "ice", like "sapphire", like "pavement" which God walks on in human form, in which God's throne rests above yet in which stars are placed within and like "molten metal" to describe the raqia. Job wasn't woke, scripture just says what it says.

Scripture says none of those things that you are saying. Since there are no good scholars who agree with ANE, it goes to say that something is very wrong with their view on the Bible. The translations that use dome are not real translations. Yes, they are in every sense liberal translations. They are all rejected by Christians who know the Biblical languages. Assumptions do not make facts. ANE teaches flat earth with a solid metal dome over it. The Bible does not have a single verse that teaches any ANE assumptions. Even the earliest church fathers all read about a full spherical earth in the Bible. ANE has no ancient witnesses to support their very forceful assumptions. ANE is a liberal movement and its purpose is to attack Christianity for the purpose of causing mass apostasy.

If you're gonna study Scripture then use good translations of the Bible and know the difference between good scholars and bad ones. Here are some translations that real scholars and dedicated College Seminary students use:

1. NKJV
2. MEV
3. The Orthodox Study Bible
4. KJV
5. ESV
6. HCSB

These are good modern translations of the Bible.

And if you're really pumped up in learning Scripture then you should take a year off and learn how to read the Tyndale Bibles. What are the Tyndale Bibles?

1. 1535 Coverdale Bible
2. 1537 Matthew's Bible
3.1539 Great Bible
4. 1568 Bishop's Bible.

These are the best English translations of the Bible to date. But you will have to learn how to read gothic script, old spellings and old grammar. This takes about a year to learn. The Matthew's Bible is considered the best out of all these. I'm hoping the Matthew's Bible will find it's way back into the modern world with modified spelling. I do have a New Testament that is modified and its amazing!

Though you may not ever be able to get one of these Bibles so at least check out the good translations listed. Never use a translation that is unapproved or unauthorized by the Christian body. Today anybody can make translations. That does not mean they are all good translations.

The floodgates are nothing more than an ancient expression about the clouds releasing rain. That expression is not to be taken literally as metal gates. That isn't what is being said. ANE is the result of people reading the Bible in English only and from very lousy English translations. No honest person robs themself by using bad translations.
 
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If I ever have some quality time soon, I am going to open a new topic and explain Genesis chapter 1. There is a way of explaining the whole chapter in perfect harmony. But this can only be done if you understand simple things like raqiya. If you use firmament than there will be a lack of harmony and anytime there is a lack of harmony it means that's something is amiss with the explanation. I know how to harmonize the whole chapter.
 
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Job 33:6

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"The floodgates are nothing more than an ancient expression about the clouds releasing rain."

On what basis do you make this claim? And when the windows of the firmament close and restrain the rain, what is that?

See, the reality is that many, if not all ancient cultures believed in a solid dome, so to turn and say "oh, the windows opening and closing is just a figure of speech", this requires some kind of justification.

God also placed the stars in the firmament. The stars aren't in the sky, nor are they in Earth's atmosphere as you've depicted space shuttles. And so you see, scripture actually describes ANE cosmology.

Also, regarding harmony in Genesis, I think there is perfect harmony in the view of a raqia being solid. Personally, I think that we do Genesis a disservice by assuming non literal or metaphorical meanings to things like these windows.
 
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"The floodgates are nothing more than an ancient expression about the clouds releasing rain."

On what basis do you make this claim? And when the windows of the firmament close and restrain the rain, what is that?

See, the reality is that many, if not all ancient cultures believed in a solid dome, so to turn and say "oh, the windows opening and closing is just a figure of speech", this requires some kind of justification.

Got also placed the stars in the firmament. The stars aren't in the sky, nor are they in Earth's atmosphere as you've depicted space shuttles. And so you see, scripture actually describes ANE cosmology.

"The translations that use dome are not real translations." -Ragdoll

Translations that use the word "dome" to describe the raqia:
The Orthodox Jewish Bible
The New Revised Standard Version
The Good News Translation
Lexham English Bible
The Complete Jewish Bible
The New American Standard Bible
The Common English Bible and more...

I guess those orthodox Jews must in actuality be "woke liberals" using translations with the word "dome" in it.
Screenshot_20220422-120713~2.png

Screenshot_20220422-120628~2.png
 
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[QUOTE="Isaiah 41:10, post:]
No, they did not.[/QUOTE]

I don't think he reads my posts at all. He is just trolling his erroneous ANE garbage here and not interested in sound theology. I'm about done with this topic. I don't carry on a conversation like this. It's like talking to myself.
 
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I don't think he reads my posts at all. He is just trolling his erroneous ANE garbage here and not interested in sound theology. I'm about done with this topic. I don't carry on a conversation like this. It's like talking to myself.

"The floodgates are nothing more than an ancient expression about the clouds releasing rain."-ragdoll

On what basis do you make this claim? And when the windows of the firmament close and restrain the rain, what is that? Just because you don't like what scripture says, doesn't mean you can just mark it off as an "ancient expression". It is not just a metaphorical "expression", it's an ancient near-east description of the cosmos.

See, the reality is that many, if not all ancient cultures believed in a solid dome, so to turn and say "oh, the windows opening and closing is just a figure of speech", this requires some kind of justification.

God also placed the stars in the firmament. The stars aren't in the sky, nor are they in Earth's atmosphere as you've depicted space shuttles. And so you see, scripture actually describes ANE cosmology.

Also, regarding harmony in Genesis, I think there is perfect harmony in the view of a raqia being solid. Personally, I think that we do Genesis a disservice by assuming non literal or metaphorical meanings to things like these windows
 
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