Single predestination?

[TedT]

It's like if you saw a door that says all who will may enter. It's up to you. You decide to go in and there is a table with a place mat with your name on it. On the back of the door it says ordained before the foundation of time

EXCEPT, you can only enter by the gift of the grace of GOD. No one can will to be saved from their enslavement to sin. NO one not gifted with faith can enter...not one. So, if all people are equal in sinfulness and there is no condition found in anyone to have them to be chosen for salvation NOR to be passed over for salvation then HE chose for HIS pleasure because HE is sovereign.

HE gives the gift of salvation to some but withholds it from others...for no stated nor understood reason except that HE can do this so IF HE wants to do this it is righteous because HE is Sovereign GOD.

EXCEPT also, that HIS sovereignty does not, cannot, trump HIS nature, HIS godly attributes of ALWAYS being loving, righteous and just. HE cannot, will never, do anything that does not measure up (ie, misses the mark) to HIS nature and then call it righteous because HE is sovereign. HIS sovereignty ONLY SERVES HIS attributes by seeing that HIS love, righteousness and justice are always achieved, never compromised in the least!!!

So, how is HIS righteousness, loving kindness and justice fulfilled by passing over giving the gift of salvation to anyone for no reason??

??First HE makes them all to be sinners by putting them into Adam then HE refuses to give them the gift of salvation so they end in hell forever....riiiight...??

Isaiah 43:7, 21
7 "whom I created for my glory"
21 ...the people I formed for myself that they may proclaim my praise.

HOW does creating them in sin then damning them for that sin give HIM glory? What is praiseworthy in HIS withholding the gift of salvation from those HE damns when they are no more evil than those HE chooses to save? There is no mystery here...only unreconciled blasphemies.

 

[BPPLEE]

EXCEPT, you can only enter by the gift of the grace of GOD. No one can will to be saved from their enslavement to sin. NO one not gifted with faith can enter...not one. So, if all people are equal in sinfulness and there is no condition found in anyone to have them to be chosen for salvation NOR to be passed over for salvation then HE chose for HIS pleasure because HE is sovereign.

HE gives the gift of salvation to some but withholds it from others...for no stated nor understood reason except that HE can do this so IF HE wants to do this it is righteous because HE is Sovereign GOD.

EXCEPT also, that HIS sovereignty does not, cannot, trump HIS nature, HIS godly attributes of ALWAYS being loving, righteous and just. HE cannot, will never, do anything that does not measure up (ie, misses the mark) to HIS nature and then call it righteous because HE is sovereign. HIS sovereignty ONLY SERVES HIS attributes by seeing that HIS love, righteousness and justice are always achieved, never compromised in the least!!!

So, how is HIS righteousness, loving kindness and justice fulfilled by passing over giving the gift of salvation to anyone for no reason??

??First HE makes them all to be sinners by putting them into Adam then HE refuses to give them the gift of salvation so they end in hell forever....riiiight...??

Isaiah 43:7, 21
7 "whom I created for my glory"
21 ...the people I formed for myself that they may proclaim my praise.

HOW does creating them in sin then damning them for that sin give HIM glory? What is praiseworthy in HIS withholding the gift of salvation from those HE damns when they are no more evil than those HE chooses to save? There is no mystery here...only unreconciled blasphemies.

If that's true there's no reason to witness, no reason to repent, no reason to get saved, no reason to do anything but what you wish it's all been decided for you.

 

[TedT]

If that's true there's no reason to witness, no reason to repent, no reason to get saved, no reason to do anything but what you wish it's all been decided for you.

Umm, sorry, If that's true, ie what part is true?

If the good but sinful seed (sheep gone astray) are here to be redeemed and sanctified by their repudiation of the reprobate weeds (goats) so that they come out from among them and be separate as commanded...

then one reason to witness to everyone is to experience the never ending hostility of the reprobate weeds to GOD and HIS word so that the elect good seed cease hoping the reprobate will some day learn to conform to the ways of GOD. This would free them to accept GOD's word about the absolute necessity of the banishment of the weeds to the outer darkness as unforgivable.

 

[BPPLEE]

Umm, sorry, If that's true, ie what part is true?

If the good but sinful seed (sheep gone astray) are here to be redeemed and sanctified by their repudiation of the reprobate weeds (goats) so that they come out from among them and be separate as commanded...

then one reason to witness to everyone is to experience the never ending hostility of the reprobate weeds to GOD and HIS word so that the elect good seed cease hoping the reprobate will some day learn to conform to the ways of GOD. This would free them to accept GOD's word about the absolute necessity of the banishment of the weeds to the outer darkness as unforgivable.

They have to have free will to accept something. They have to choose to accept it.

 

[TedT]

They have to have free will to accept something. They have to choose to accept it.

I disagree. They are killed. Dead. Then reborn free of enslavement by GOD's will, not their own.

We must become sinful by our own will...
WE must be freed from sin by GOD's will by our rebirth into a new life with a free will which is contrary to our sinful will.

 

[BPPLEE]

I disagree. They are killed. Dead. Then reborn free of enslavement by GOD's will, not their own.

We must become sinful by our own will...
WE must be freed from sin by GOD's will by our rebirth into a new life with a free will which is contrary to our sinful will.

You are contradicting yourself

 

[Clare73]

So I've been trying to make sense of the doctrine of predestination as someone currently attending a Lutheran church. I've been reading through the Book of Concord and find myself in agreement with everything I've read thus far, but when I look at some of the criticisms of the paradox of single predestination I falter a little bit. It seems that one is expected to either be Arminian or Calvinist, and the Lutheran option is a "non-answer" that is illogical. But I see that not only Lutherans but many Anglican divines as well as the Catholic Thomists believe in it, so I guess I just wanted to ask about defenses or critiques about this doctrine and how your tradition views it

1. God knows everything -- omniscient
2. God predestines those whom he foreknows - to be conformed to the image of Christ
3. And God foreknows everyone.
4. And He also knows that only the few of Matt 7 - will be saved.

1 John 2: "2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." NIV

Let's start with what "God's foreknowledge" means as shown in Scripture.

It does not refer to his knowing in advance what man is going to do,
it refers to his knowing in advance what he is going to do,
because he has decreed from before the foundations of the world that he shall do it.
We know this from the following:

Acts 15:18 - "Known to the Lord (God's foreknowledge) for ages is his work."

Isaiah 48:3 - "I foretold (God's foreknowledge) the former things long ago,
my mouth announced (decreed) them and I made them known;
then suddenly I acted, and they came to pass."

Acts 2:23 - "This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge."

Acts 4:28 - "They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen."

See Isaiah 37:26, Isaiah 45:21; Romans 8:29, Romans 11:2; 1 Peter 1:2;
2 Peter 3:17.

In the Bible, "God's foreknowledge"--knowing in advance what is going to happen, is
not because he looks down the corridors of time to learn what man is going to do,
rather "God's foreknowledge" is about God knowing in advance what he is going to do
because he has decreed that he shall do it and, therefore, it shall happen.

 

[fhansen]

It's something that I personally disregard. According to the bible, predestination -at least as far as Calvinists describe it- is impossible. Also "Open Theism" as some people describe it is also impossible. In sorting through it, the only conclusion that can be reliably drawn from it is that God has a plan for humanity, that plan includes a group who will be saved, and that plan will be completed. Everything else is speculation. We know what we are required to do and we should do it. And we should do it without a lot of theological speculation that only divides.

But if it helps, one Orthodox view of predestination is found in the Confession of Dositheus, written by a Synod in Jerusalem in 1672:

We believe the most good God to have from eternity predestinated unto glory those whom He has chosen, and to have consigned unto condemnation those whom He has rejected; but not so that He would justify the one, and consign and condemn the other without cause. For that would be contrary to the nature of God, who is the common Father of all, and no respecter of persons, and would have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. But since He foreknew the one would make a right use of their free-will, and the other a wrong, He predestinated the one, or condemned the other. And we understand the use of free-will thus, that the Divine and illuminating grace, and which we call preventing grace, being, as a light to those in darkness, by the Divine goodness imparted to all, to those that are willing to obey this — for it is of use only to the willing, not to the unwilling — and co-operate with it, in what it requires as necessary to salvation, there is consequently granted particular grace. This grace co-operates with us, and enables us, and makes us to persevere in the love of God, that is to say, in performing those good things that God would have us to do, and which His preventing grace admonishes us that we should do, justifies us, and makes us predestinated. But those who will not obey, and co-operate with grace; and, therefore, will not observe those things that God would have us perform, and that abuse in the service of Satan the free-will, which they have received of God to perform voluntarily what is good, are consigned to eternal condemnation.

This is basically the Catholic position as well.

 

[fhansen]

Augustine, perhaps one of the most beloved Church Fathers, promoted the idea of predestination to the West and laid the foundation for Aquinas’ Thomistic theology of single predestination that many Roman Catholics adhere to today. Many Catholics do hold to Molinism, however

The only thing of relevance to a Catholic is-or should be-what the Church teaches. And while Augustine was no where near as radical as Calvinism when it comes to the non-role of man’s will, the Church rejected double predestination in any case and teaches that God “predestines” only based on His foreknowledge of our choices.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I reject TULIP, Five Points Calvinism on absolute grounds as contrary to divine love;

I agree but I would also add that it is contradictory to God being just as well since it also teaches that God created us knowing we are incapable of repentance and required it for salvation knowing that we would fail and withheld the grace from us that we would need to be able to meet that requirement which would leave those whom He did not bestow His grace upon completely incapable of repenting resulting in their punishment in the lake of fire. In order for God’s punishment to be just we must be capable of meeting His requirements.

 

[TedT]

the Chuhe anyway...rch rejected double predestination in any case and teaches that God “predestines” only based on His foreknowledge of our choices.

Coupled with HIS nature as omniscient, this doctrine implies that HE knew before their creation who would end in hell but created them anyway...absolutely contrary to the scripture verses in which HE tells us that HE does not want anyone to die in hell!!

All HE had to do to fulfil HIS desire to keep hell empty was to NOT CREATE those HE foreknew would end there!!!!

This illogical bit of dogma needs a serious revision methinks...

 

[fhansen]

Coupled with HIS nature as omniscient, this doctrine implies that HE knew before their creation who would end in hell but created them anyway...absolutely contrary to the scripture verses in which HE tells us that HE does not want anyone to die in hell!!

All HE had to do to fulfil HIS desire to keep hell empty was to NOT CREATE those HE foreknew would end there!!!!

This illogical bit of dogma needs a serious revision methinks...

Not really. God, with His foreknowledge, simply creates the best world possible with the just or righteous parameters He deems appropiate: that man has the freedom to choose between good and evil, and, with the help of grace, can choose good, Himself being that ultimate good. In this way He brings the greatest possible good out of the evil that results from the abuse of the good gift of free will.

The only just alternative would be universalism. But then there wouldn't really be any need for all the drama and pain and evil mankind has suffered down through the ages; He may as well have just put everyone in heaven to begin with. No need for revelation, or for the grace of redemption while on this planet... if man's will is not involved.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

You have to think of why Christ died, and why did He ask the Father to let this cup pass from Me, but nevertheless thy will be done. Bob Ryan had the best scriptural quote in 1 John 2:2. Our Lord Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world. Does that mean we are all saved? No, it means all of us can be saved, but not all of us want it. Jesus' agony in the garden was greatly intensified in that He was going to die even for those that would ultimately reject Him. He died to give all of us the free will to love Him.
Everyone talks about the finished work of Christ on the cross. Ok, but if you believe that and do nothing, what good is it? Jesus said, if you love Me, keep my commandments. He told the Apostles to go and convert the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirt. Jesus Himself submitted to Baptism. Are you baptized, or are you looking at the finished work of Christ and doing nothing? Jesus said in John 6 that unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Do you eat His flesh and drink His blood, or are you looking at the finished work of Christ and doing nothing? Jesus knows that you cannot do good works on your own. We cannot work our way to heaven, but you wont get to heaven without good works. Why? because Jesus said He would empower you to do them if you ask. If you love Him, you will ask Him to take your sin away and empower you to do good works for His glory.
Too many times, we get complacent and want to play it both ways. I can't give up porn or sex, alcohol, drugs, money, food, pride, impatience. Then we become slothful and say it is too hard to follow the commandments; I'll never be able to stop sinning, so I will look at the finished work of Christ. Instead of repenting in sackcloth and ashes, we just keep on going, but do you ever ask God for the grace of repentance and obedience?
God knows there are those that will ask Him, because they love Him, and those are His elect. He promises that whosoever will, come and drink of the waters of life freely. God offers you the grace, aka the power to obey Him if you ask. Everyone loves John 3:16, but do you also love John 3:18-21?


[18] He that believeth in him is not judged. But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [19] And this is the judgment: because the light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the light: for their works were evil. [20] For every one that doth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, that his works may not be reproved. [21] But he that doth truth, cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, because they are done in God.

You cannot say you believe and stay in the darkness of sin and claim to rely on the finished work of Christ. If you love Him, you come into the light and have your sin reproved, repent and do good works. If you really look at it, a person does not wind up in hell because of sins he has committed. Jesus already paid the debt of sin for the whole world. We wind up in hell because we do not ask the only Son of God to take away our sin and enable us to do good works. We choose to love God or not. If we love Him, we obey Him, as He said if you love Me, keep My commandments. Hell is not eternal because of our sins, no matter how bad, committed in a finite amount of time. Hell is eternal because we reject the Only Son of God that was always waiting to cleanse us from sin, but we never asked, or thought it was too hard and gave up. Some people do not believe in hell, but it is real and there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, and it is eternal.

Salvation is open to all that ask, love God and keep His commandments

 

[Preetcher]

So I've been trying to make sense of the doctrine of predestination as someone currently attending a Lutheran church. I've been reading through the Book of Concord and find myself in agreement with everything I've read thus far, but when I look at some of the criticisms of the paradox of single predestination I falter a little bit. It seems that one is expected to either be Arminian or Calvinist, and the Lutheran option is a "non-answer" that is illogical. But I see that not only Lutherans but many Anglican divines as well as the Catholic Thomists believe in it, so I guess I just wanted to ask about defenses or critiques about this doctrine and how your tradition views it

The key to understanding the Biblical doctrine of predestination is understanding the foreknowledge of God. We know that God knows everything that has ever been, that is, and that is going to be. He knows those that are going to serve Him and those that are not. He chooses or elects them accordingly. Why would He extend the opportunity for salvation to those He knows are going to be lost? Because He wants no-one to have any excuses on the day of judgment. All will stand before Him without excuse. His Love compels Him to extend the opportunity for salvation to every man without respect of persons therefore He elects those that are going to be saved and those that are going to be lose according to His foreknowledge. He never does it randomly by that I mean He just doesn't select a few to be saved and a few to be lost just because He can. He never choose anyone to ne saved or lost without reason or justification.

 

[DeFyYing]

The key to understanding the Biblical doctrine of predestination is understanding the foreknowledge of God. We know that God knows everything that has ever been, that is, and that is going to be. He knows those that are going to serve Him and those that are not. He chooses or elects them accordingly. Why would He extend the opportunity for salvation to those He knows are going to be lost? Because He wants no-one to have any excuses on the day of judgment. All will stand before Him without excuse. His Love compels Him to extend the opportunity for salvation to every man without respect of persons therefore He elects those that are going to be saved and those that are going to be lose according to His foreknowledge. He never does it randomly by that I mean He just doesn't select a few to be saved and a few to be lost just because He can. He never choose anyone to ne saved or lost without reason or justification.

I can only speak from a Lutheran perspective, but I think the problem with taking God's foreknowledge into account is that it makes Election conditional, in this case conditional on who will have foreseen faith. But for this to be true, it implies that people can come to the Gospel by their own accord without the help of God, which Thomism, Calvinism, and Lutheranism would reject. Granted, I come from a synergist background but someone correct me if I'm wrong

 

[BNR32FAN]

Coupled with HIS nature as omniscient, this doctrine implies that HE knew before their creation who would end in hell but created them anyway...absolutely contrary to the scripture verses in which HE tells us that HE does not want anyone to die in hell!!

All HE had to do to fulfil HIS desire to keep hell empty was to NOT CREATE those HE foreknew would end there!!!!

This illogical bit of dogma needs a serious revision methinks...

What He could’ve done is irrelevant. What matters is what the scriptures tell us that He did do. Yes the scriptures state that He wants all to be saved, the scriptures also state that not all will be saved. So whatever measure He could’ve taken to prevent this is irrelevant because according to the scriptures obviously He decided not to take those measures. We might ask why He created those who would reject Him but the answer could be as simple as He foresaw the offspring or descendants of those rebellious people who would embrace Him. I’m not saying this is the reason I’m just saying that there are viable possibilities.

 

[Preetcher]

I can only speak from a Lutheran perspective, but I think the problem with taking God's foreknowledge into account is that it makes Election conditional, in this case conditional on who will have foreseen faith. But for this to be true, it implies that people can come to the Gospel by their own accord without the help of God, which Thomism, Calvinism, and Lutheranism would reject. Granted, I come from a synergist background but someone correct me if I'm wrong

I really don't think it makes election conditional at all my dear brother. How can there be conditions attached if God knows beforehand who will serve Him and who will not? God accepts all those that answer His call without condition but it is still up to the individual to accept or reject His call. God already knows who will do that and elects them accordingly. I think the question here might be free will and if man possesses it. I believe that he does and that he has the power to accept or reject the call of God. He has power to obey God and that if he doesn't he will face the consequences. It is common Biblical Knowledge that no man will ever come to God unless His Spirit draws him. Jesus said Joh_15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. Strong's concordance defines grace as "divine influence upon the heart and its reflection in the life". We must obey when His divine influence is applied to our hearts or face the consequences. Thank you for your reply and may the Lord bless you and your family.

 

[TedT]

What He could’ve done is irrelevant.

Not to those HE damned for no reason...

 

[BNR32FAN]

Not to those HE damned for no reason...

God never damned anyone for no reason. All of us deserve to be condemned, what He did was He showed mercy on those who humbled themselves to Him.

 

[BNR32FAN]

EXCEPT, you can only enter by the gift of the grace of GOD. No one can will to be saved from their enslavement to sin. NO one not gifted with faith can enter...not one. So, if all people are equal in sinfulness and there is no condition found in anyone to have them to be chosen for salvation NOR to be passed over for salvation then HE chose for HIS pleasure because HE is sovereign.

You’ve been misled about God by Calvinists. God’s kindness and patience is towards all sinners not only the elect. Anyone can humble themselves to Him and be saved, that’s why Christ paid for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. Christ didn’t sacrifice Himself only for the elect or only to atone the sins of the elect, He sacrificed Himself to pay for the sins of the whole world which is why He will be the one to judge the world and choose who will enter heaven and who will not.