Did Christ at the cross end all the laws?

[LoveGodsWord]

About Romans 7:7: You conveniently omit verse 6 which says we no longer serve the letter of the law. The only way I have seen you guys deal with this text is to take it upon yourselves to change "serve the letter of the law" to "be judged by the letter of the law". Really? That's the argument. Now about verse 7, Paul the law gave him (past tense) knowledge of sin. It therefore is entirely conceivable to imagine the law has been retired and Paul is reflecting on its role when it was in force. About Romans 3:20: You ignore the context of an evolving narrative: in context, Paul is describing what was the case - that the Law did, in the past, let the Jew know what sin was. How do we know that this is now in the past? The very next verse! But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been revealed, ....

Well that is not true. I am not omitting anything. Romans 7:6 does not contradict Paul saying in Romans 7:7 that God's law gives us a knowledge of what sin is which is what the rest of the chapter is about being delivered from the law of sin and death that works in our members (see Romans 7:5).

Sin is defined in the scriptures as breaking of any one of God's 10 commandments according to James in James 2:10-11 who quotes the 6th and 7th commandment which agrees with Paul in Romans 7:7 where he says that the purpose of Gods' 10 commandments (quoting the 10th commandment) is to give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken. This agrees with what Paul says in Romans 3:20 where he says for by the law we have a knowledge of what sin is when we break it.

All the above of course agree with John who defines sin as the transgression of the law in 1 John 3:4. Sin is also defined in Romans 14:23 as not believing what Gods' Word says. So your interpretation of the above scriptures is not biblical or supported in scripture. According to the scriptures quoted above therefore the purpose of God's 10 commandments (not 9, or 613) is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) when obeyed and evil (moral wrong doing when disobeyed); sin (moral wrong doing when disobeyed) and righteousness (moral right doing when obeyed) *see Romans 7:7; James 2:10-11; Romans 3:20 and 1 John 3:4 and to lead us to Christ that we might all be forgiven through faith (see Galatians 3:22-25; Matthew 9:12-13) so that we can be born again *1 John 3:4-9 and made free to walk in Gods' Spirit *Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4. This is Gods' new covenant promise to all those who believe and follow Gods Word according to Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27.

Take Care.

 

[expos4ever]

So to claim that we know God while disregarding Gods' law is a teaching that is not biblical....

Here in Romans 2, Paul says the Gentile who does not have the law still can follow it, at least in a sense:

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them

This text shows that we need not look to a written list of commandments to "know God". So while, obviously, we all agree that "thou shalt not commit murder", this text from Paul demonstrates that we can acquire this knowledge without having access to the Law.

But even more damaging to your position is Romans 7:6

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Once more, I believe that in order to preserve your position, you are forced to change "serve in the oldness of the letter" to "be judged by the oldness of the letter".

That is a road I, for one, am not willing to go down.

 

[expos4ever]

In fact in Proverbs 28:9 we read He that turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

Here is the difference between your position and mine. You read these words and believe that this statement about the law is an eternal, never-ending truth.

By contrast, I read these words and interpret them within the context of what I see as an evolving redemption narrative.

If the case can be made that God has a plan for the world that changes with time, we need not interpret Proverbs 28:9 as in force today.

And the case for the evolving narrative is devastating. From Romans 3:

Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law none of mankind will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes knowledge of sin. 21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 but it is the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe..

One would need to be blind to need understand verses 1 - 20 as a story about the past. Here, Paul refers to the giving of the Law:

Then what advantage does the Jew have? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First, that they were entrusted with the actual words of God. 3 What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?

Paul is telling us about history. And in verse 20, he arrives in the present:

But now apart from the Law ....

So the stuff in verse 20 about the Law giving knowledge of sin, is, yes, in the past. Why would Paul say "but now" if he was not saying "this stuff I have just been telling you is now behind us.

The Bible is not a set of timeless truths - it is a wonderful story of an evolving redemption narrative that reaches its climax at the cross.

 

[expos4ever]

There is nothing that you have posted here that supports a view of lawlessness (without law).

Strawman - I have never denied that sin is lawlessness. You guys have taken it upon yourselves to change the general concept "lawlessness" to "lawlessness with respect to the Law of Moses". I am not making that illicit move so please stop misrepresenting my position.

Again, nothing I have ever posted could be reasonably taken as denying that sin is lawlessness.

Heaven and earth have not passed away and all has not been fulfilled (e.g. second coming, judgement of the wicked and an end to sin and death.

You are simply ignoring the content of my argument. Readers will know you are doing this. Was not metaphorical language used here to depict the destruction of Babylon?:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light

And what about the statement from Jesus in the very text from Matt 5 that you cite about the Law lasting until all is accomplished. You may think it is a coincidence that Jesus's last words are these - I do not:

"It is finished"

 

[expos4ever]

Wikipedia? LOL

People often use this dismissive tactic to dismiss things in Wikipedia that are not to their liking.

Wikipedia is an open encyclopedia - if there was a case for the 10 not being part of the Law of Moses, that case would surely have found its way into wikipedia.

Again from Wikipedia:

The Hebrew word for the first five books of the Hebrew Bible, Torah (which means "law" and was translated into Greek as "nomos" or "Law") refers to the same five books termed in English "Pentateuch" (from Latinised Greek "five books", implying the five books of Moses). According to some scholars, use of the name "Torah" to designate the "Five Books of Moses" of the Hebrew Bible is clearly documented only from the 2nd century BCE

If this is correct, the 10 commandments are part of the Law of Moses.

And there is this from the BBC:

The Torah is considered by Jews to be the holiest part of the Tenakh and was given by God to Moses on Mount Sinai. The Hebrew word Torah is traditionally translated as 'law', which in this context means teaching, instruction or guidance. The most well-known of these laws are the Ten Commandments, but the Torah contains a total of 613 commandments or mitzvah covering many aspects of daily life, including family, personal hygiene and diet.

Whoever wrote this considers the 10 be part of the Law of Moses.

 

[Leaf473]

The Bible is not a set of timeless truths - it is a wonderful story of an evolving redemption narrative that reaches its climax at the cross.

That's true that things in the Bible evolve.

At one time Jesus tells his disciples to go out without taking extra money or weapons. But then at the last supper in the Luke account he tells them to take along both of those things.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Here in Romans 2, Paul says the Gentile who does not have the law still can follow it, at least in a sense:

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them

This text shows that we need not look to a written list of commandments to "know God". So while, obviously, we all agree that "thou shalt not commit murder", this text from Paul demonstrates that we can acquire this knowledge without having access to the Law.

But even more damaging to your position is Romans 7:6

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Once more, I believe that in order to preserve your position, you are forced to change "serve in the oldness of the letter" to "be judged by the oldness of the letter".

That is a road I, for one, am not willing to go down.

Actually the scripture tells us very clearly that we are known by God through our obedience to His commandments.

1 John 2: 3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Similar which is what Jesus says on that great day when He comes:

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

I'm not sure if you're getting the whole picture yet- love to God is by our obedience to His commandments Exodus 20:6. 1 John 5:3. John 14:15, John 15:10 we are known or not known through our obedience to the commandments of God and it is how we will be judged James 2:10-12. Why the fight on God's commandments that are holy just and perfect and reflect the character of our Creator?

 

[Leaf473]

The phrase "law of Moses" occurs 20 times in the Bible according to this search:
BibleGateway - Keyword Search: "law of Moses"

In 18 of those cases, I think it's ambiguous as to whether it refers to the first five books of the Bible or the laws contained in those books, possibly including the ten commandments.

But in two cases, Luke 24:44 and Acts 28:23, I think it definitely refers to the first five books. That would include the ten commandments.

 

[expos4ever]

Without this distinction some people claim ALL the laws are abolished (which means there can't be any sinners)..

I can claim that all elements of the Law of Moses - including the 10 - are "retired" and not be forced into the position of saying there no sinners.

For example, we need to follow Jesus's teachings - if I fail to follow them, I am a sinner. Likewise, I need to respond to the promptings of the indwelling Spirit. If I reject the leading of the Spirit, I am sinning.

 

[expos4ever]

I would suggest that the position you outlined in this post is not a biblical one but one that Jesus warns us about in Matthew 15:3-9

Nothing I have posted remotely puts me in the position of the pharisees in this passage. They were distorting the Law during the time when it was in force. I am doing something fundamentally different - arguing that the NT tells us the Law of Moses, including the 10, are no longer in force this side of the Cross.

 

[expos4ever]

We see a fair bit of pontificating in this thread - some posters are basically saying "pray and submit to God and you will see that you are mistaken".

Not helpful or appropriate. If you disagree with someone's position, make a scriptural case, don't sermonize, please.

 

[expos4ever]

According to the scriptures the purpose of God's 10 commandments (not 9, or 613) is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) when obeyed and evil (moral wrong doing when disobeyed)

All true, but you simply assume that God's plan is static - that the 10 will always give us knowledge of good and evil. This is clearly not what Paul believes:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

You guys are in the very undesirable position of having to argue that we need the 10 commandments to tell us right from wrong even though we have the indwelling Spirit.

Do you not believe that telling us right from wrong would be part of the Spirit's role?

 

[expos4ever]

While the commandments to love one's neighbor are contained in the Law of Moses, Jesus clearly elevated them out of it as universal law and principle. We see this repeatedly throughout the NT as you pointed out.

If that is so, if Jesus is declaring that the 10 are "universal law", why does Paul tell us that we no longer serve the written code (including the 10 commandments - the context shows he is including the 10):

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

 

[expos4ever]

Consider...

Matthew 5:18
New Catholic Bible
18 Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single letter, not even a tiny portion of a letter, will disappear from the Law until all things have been accomplished.

Ephesians 2:14-16
New Catholic Bible
14 For he is our peace,
who has made the two into one,
by breaking down the barrier of hostility.
In his flesh
15 he has abolished the Law
with its commandments and ordinances,
so that he might create in himself
a single new person out of the two,
thereby making peace,
16 and that he might reconcile both groups
to God in one body
through the cross,
thereby putting that enmity to death.​

Now, these passages would seem to be contradictory... unless we're talking about two distinct bodies of law.

It is indeed helpful to raise this apparent contradiction. But there is another way to resolve the problem - understand Matt 5:18 in keeping with the Biblical practice of using "end of world" apocalyptic imagery to denote events in the here and now. This case has been made repeatedly in this thread and no one has seriously critiqued it - it has just been dismissed out of hand.

Again, when does Jesus allow for the ending of the Law?

When, yes, all has been accomplished.

What are Jesus's last words?

"It is finished".

Coincidence?

 

[expos4ever]

But in tangible reality the two bodies of law were separate and quite distinct. One was universal and received on Sinai.

On what Scriptural basis do you believe the 10 are "universal"? Did Moses not deliver these laws to the nation of Israel (and not to the wider world)?

Paul certainly believes the 10 are part of the "Law' which we no longer serve, and have been released from:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. 7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? Far from it! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

It could not be more clear, by citing one of 10 here, Paul cannot be misunderstood - the 10 are part of the Law that we no longer serve.

 

[expos4ever]

Actually the scripture tells us very clearly that we are known by God through our obedience to His commandments.

1 John 2: 3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

You are evading my argument. What do you think Paul is saying here:

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them

Please address this text. In particular, readers will be interested to know how you reconcile your view that we need the written code with the fact that the Gentile, who does not even have the Law to look to, is able to obey God.

As to the text you cite, it nowhere specifically refers to the 10 commandments. As always, you slip this assumption in - you assume that a reference to "keeping commandments" entails "keeping the 10 commandments".

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I can claim that all elements of the Law of Moses - including the 10 - are "retired" and not be forced into the position of saying there no sinners.

For example, we need to follow Jesus's teachings - if I fail to follow them, I am a sinner. Likewise, I need to respond to the promptings of the indwelling Spirit. If I reject the leading of the Spirit, I am sinning.

You're free to claim whatever you want. I prefer to claim what is written in scriptures and Jesus says If you love Me keep My commandments. John 14:15 If you want to enter into life keep the commandments. Which ones -Jesus quoting from the Ten Commandments Matthew 19:17-19 Jesus never came to destroy the law and told us to keep the least of the commandments again quoting directly from the Ten Matthew 5:17-30 which is what we will be judged by James 2:10-12. Jesus is coming back soon enough and this will all get resolved. My hope and prayer for everyone is to accept and love Jesus and we demonstrate our love through our obedience to His commandments. Exodus 20:6, John 14:15, 1 John 5:3 We are told the fruit of a saved person has the faith in Jesus and keeps the commandments of God. Revelation 12:14. I find it amazing anyone would not want to keep God's law. Should we really want to worship other gods, bow to images, steal, cheat lie etc. I find it interesting people go above and beyond to not accept the commandments God personally wrote that are meant to be good for us.

 

[expos4ever]

I find it interesting people go above and beyond to not accept the commandments God personally wrote that are meant to be good for us.

And I find it interesting that, clear scriptures notwithstanding, you insist that the category "commandments of God" must contain the 10 commandments throughout all history. God, of course, is free to retire the 10 at some point in history as He wishes. And Paul certainly believes this is what God has done.

In other words, when we are instructed to "obey the commandments of God", you cannot simply assume that the 10 commandments are in this set of commandments to be obeyed given the possibility that the 10 may be "retired" per God's purposes.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

And I find it interesting that, clear scriptures notwithstanding, you insist that the category "commandments of God" must contain the 10 commandments throughout all history. God, of course, is free to retire the 10 at some point in history as He wishes. And Paul certainly believes this is what God has done.

In other words, when we are instructed to "obey the commandments of God", you cannot simply assume that the 10 commandments are in this set of commandments to be obeyed given the possibility that the 10 may be "retired" per God's purposes.

Why would Paul quote from the Ten saying it was the law if that wasn't the case. Romans 7:7 or Jesus quoting from the Ten often as already demonstrated. The Ten Commandments is the law God personally wrote and is His will for us, which it is why we will be judged by the Ten and why God keeps His law in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of Holies in His Temple where He dwells that is also revealed in heaven. Revelation 11:19.

You free to believe and teach what you want, but the promises of the bible are sure and I would consider the warning Jesus gave in Matthew 5:19 quoting directly from the Ten Commandments.

Take care.

 

[expos4ever]

Should we really want to worship other gods, bow to images, steal, cheat lie etc.

A gross mischaracterization of my position as any objective reader will know.

Please stop with your repeated false attributions - by now you have to know that my position does not entail commitment to such an absurd position.