Did Christ at the cross end all the laws?

[LoveGodsWord]

False - you suppress context to support your position.

Sorry again I know this is posted from you to someone else but to be honest I believe it is you that is disregarding the scripture contexts as pointed out to you earlier in post # 691 linked. Please take the time to carefully re-read the linked post and scripture contexts that were shown that your disregarding that disagree with your earlier claims and teachings.

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Strawman - I have never denied that sin is lawlessness (and the original greek work translated as "lawlessness" can be translated as "iniquity" which removes the concept of "law", but that is for another post). I have merely denied that we need a particular law - the Law of Moses including the 10 - to determine what sin is.

There was no strawman from the post you were quoting from. Only God's Word has been shared with you that defines sin as breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments and not believing and following what Gods' Word says. This is the bibles definition of sin and are Gods' Word that define what sin is as shown in the last post you are only micro-quoting from here. As posted earlier, the scriptures define sin as breaking of any one of God's 10 commandments according to James in James 2:10-11 who quotes the 6th and 7th commandment which agrees with Paul in Romans 7:7 where he says that the purpose of Gods' 10 commandments (quoting the 10th commandment) is to give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken. This agrees with what Paul says in Romans 3:20 where he says for by the law we have a knowledge of what sin is when we break it.

All the above of course agree with John who defines sin as the transgression of the law in 1 John 3:4. Sin is also defined in Romans 14:23 as not believing what Gods' Word says. So your interpretation of the above scriptures is not biblical or supported in scripture. According to the scriptures quoted above therefore the purpose of God's 10 commandments (not 9, or 613) is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) when obeyed and evil (moral wrong doing when disobeyed); sin (moral wrong doing when disobeyed) and righteousness (moral right doing when obeyed) *see Romans 7:7; James 2:10-11; Romans 3:20 and 1 John 3:4 and to lead us to Christ that we might all be forgiven through faith (see Galatians 3:22-25; Matthew 9:12-13) so that we can be born again *1 John 3:4-9 and made free to walk in Gods' Spirit *Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4. This is Gods' new covenant promise to all those who believe and follow Gods Word according to Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27.

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ If there is no law we have no knowledge of what sin is and have no need of Gods salvation.

Your response here...

I think it will be hard to defend this assertion Biblically. Paul declares that we no longer serve according to the written code but rather we serve according the Spirit. Yes, Paul affirms that the Law showed the Jew what sin is, but Paul also affirms that things have changed with the giving of the Spirit: because by the works of the Law none of mankind will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes knowledge of sin.21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, Note the "but now" following the declaration that the Law gives knowledge of sin. You guys systematically omit Romans 3:21 when you cite Romans 3:20 as if it showed that we still need the Law to know what sin is. But what does Paul say in verse 21? He says "but now" and, yes, apart from the Law..... God's plan has moved on.

Your making assertions and argument here no one is arguing about. No one has ever said to you that we are justified by the works of the law so if no one has ever said or believes that we are saved by the works of the law why are you pretending that they are? If no one has ever said to you that we are saved by the works of the law what is your argument? - You have none because we are in agreement.

According to the scriptures, we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith in Gods' Word that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins being justified by the blood of Christ and his death and sacrifice for our sins given as a free gift to all those who have faith. According to the scriptures, obedience to what Gods Word says is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 is obedience to the faith *Romans 1:5 as we believe and follow what his word says *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and does not lead to obeying Gods' Word then our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27.

You may want to read a little further in Romans 3 down to Romans 3:31 where Paul asks the question "Do we then make void (or abolish) the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Paul is direction in disagreement with you here. Paul is showing in Romans 3 faith does not abolish Gods' law it establishes Gods' law in the lives of those who have faith. Your disregarding scripture context that has led you into a false teaching of "lawlessness" (without law) which is not biblical and what Jesus warns us about in Matthew 5:17 and John in 1 John 2:3-4 and 1 John 3:9-10. Romans 3:20 was only cited in connection with Romans 7:7, 1 John 3:4 and James 2:10-11 to show that Gods' 10 commandments give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken. As Paul says faith does not abolish God's law like your teachings it establishes it - Romans 3:31.

Hope this can be helpful.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ In fact according to the scriptures, Jesus taught us saying do not think I have come to destroy the law and the prophets in Matthew 5:17-20.

Your response here...

I repeat a detailed argument to the effect that Jesus is not intending us to believe that the Law will persist until literally the end of time:

Then we have Gods Word that disagree with your words from the very words of Jesus that says; " For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." - Matthew 5:18. Sounds like the end of time to me.

Jesus was a product of his times and culture and we in the modern west have been careless in understanding the implications. On a surface reading, Matthew 5:17-20 is indeed a challenge to those of us who think the Law of Moses has been retired. Those who hold the opposing view have their own challenges to face, such as Ephesians 2:15 (and Romans 7) which declare the abolition of the Law of Moses.

For me I think the key here is in seeking Jesus through His Word and claiming His promises to be our guide and teacher (see John 16:13: John 7:17; John 14:26; 1 John 2:27) which are conditional of course of continuing to believe and follow Jesus through His Word (see John 8:31-36). Many people do not seek Jesus through His Word to be their guide and teacher. They instead seek to know Jesus through the teachings and traditions of men outside of Gods' Word and praying that God will teach them His Word through His Spirit. Gods Word therefore should not be a challenge to us if we seek Jesus for His Spirit to guide us and teach us His Words. As shown in the post you are micro-quoting here. There is not a single scripture in all of Gods' Word that says God's 10 commandments have been abolished that is a teaching of lawlessness (without law).

According to the scriptures, According to the scriptures the purpose of God's 10 commandments (not 9, or 613) is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) when obeyed and evil (moral wrong doing when disobeyed); sin (moral wrong doing when disobeyed) and righteousness (moral right doing when obeyed) *see Romans 7:7; James 2:10-11; Romans 3:20 and 1 John 3:4 and to lead us to Christ that we might all be forgiven through faith (see Galatians 3:22-25; Matthew 9:12-13) so that we can be born again *1 John 3:4-9 and made free to walk in Gods' Spirit *Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4. This is Gods' new covenant promise to all those who believe and follow Gods Word according to Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27.

So to claim that we know God while disregarding Gods' law is a teaching that is not biblical or stated anywhere in the scriptures. In fact in Proverbs 28:9 we read He that turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination. We should also keep in mind that according to the scriptures, Jesus and all the Apostles upheld and taught Gods' law and everyone of Gods' 10 commandments are repeated in the new covenant as the standard of good and righteousness when obeyed and evil and sin when disobeyed (scripture support here and here linked).

How can one read Matt 5:17-20 and think that the Law of Moses has been set aside, given that heaven and earth are still here? There is a way to faithfully read this text and still claim that Law of Moses was retired 2000 years ago as Paul so forcefully argues (e.g. Eph 2:15): In Hebrew culture, “end of the world” language was commonly used metaphorically to invest commonplace events with theological significance.

As shown through the scripture context you are disregarding in Matthew 5 there is nowhere in all of Matthew 5 or the rest of the bible that says Gods law has been abolished. Your teaching of lawlessness (without law) is not supported in the scriptures. According to the scripture context your disregarding, Jesus says; For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven *Matthew 5:20.

The scripture in Isaiah 42:21 shows that Jesus came in fact to magnify the law and to make it honorable and to teach the true meaning of God's Law and that it is to be applied from the inside out to our very thoughts and feelings. It is not therefore good enough to have an outward appearance before men of being obedient to Gods' law. God reads the heart and knows we are all sick with sin *Matthew 15:19-20; Matthew 12:34-35; Jeremiah 13:23; Jeremiah 17:9-10; Matthew 15:19-20; John 5:42 and in need of a new heart and of a Saviour to save us from sin. Many do not know the meaning here according to Jesus in Matthew 9:12-13.

What your disregarding in Matthew 5 is that Jesus is not abolishing Gods' law as he has already stated in Matthew 5:17 where he tells us not to even think that is what he is doing but Jesus makes this very clear in the rest of the chapter where he then goes on to magnify Gods' 10 commandments in Matthew 5:21-28 where he talks about murdering your fellow man by being angry with them without reason or committing adultery in our thoughts by looking lustfully at a woman. Think it through dear friend. If Jesus was abolishing Gods' 10 commandments he would not be magnifying them and applying them to our very thoughts and feelings. Ephesians 2:15 has nothing to do with Gods' 10 commandments. It is to the laws in ordinances and Jesus breaking down the walls of separation between Jewish and Gentile believers.

This is not mere speculation – we have concrete evidence. Isaiah writes: 10For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises And the moon will not shed its light What was going on? Babylon was being destroyed, never to be rebuilt. There are other examples of use of “end of the world” imagery to describe much more “mundane” events within the present space-time manifold. So it is possible that Jesus is not referring to the destruction of matter, space, and time as the criteria for the retirement of the Law. But what might He mean here? What is the real event for which “heaven and earth passing away” is an apocalyptic metaphor? It is Jesus’ death on the Cross where He proclaims “It is accomplished”. Note how this dovetails perfectly with the 5:18 declaration that the Law would remain until all is accomplished. Seeing things this way allows us to honour the established tradition of metaphorical end-of-the-world imagery and to take Paul at his word in his many statements which clearly denote the work of Jesus as the point in time at which Law of Moses was retired.

There is nothing that you have posted here that supports a view of lawlessness (without law). Heaven and earth have not passed away and all has not been fulfilled (e.g. second coming, judgement of the wicked and an end to sin and death).

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

If more Christians followed the not only the Scriptures, but the Fathers, the Councils, and the Magisterium we'd have far less confusion with every Christian making it up for themselves as they go while trying to convince everyone around them that their personal interpretation is correct. lol

I would suggest that the position you outlined in this post is not a biblical one but one that Jesus warns us about in Matthew 15:3-9 that can lead us away from God and His Word into following man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God. I would respectfully suggest that if everyone turned to Christ through believing and following His Word, putting away all sin and seeking God's forgiveness (Proverbs 28:13; Acts of the Apostles 2:38; 1 John 1:9) and asked Jesus to be their guide and teacher seeking Him through His Word alone then God would make known the meaning of His Word through His Spirit according to His promises *John 16:13: John 7:17; 1 John 2:27; Hebrews 8:11, as it is written "Cursed is every man that trusts in man, and makes flesh his arm, and whose heart departs from the LORD."

May God bless you as you seek Him through His Word.

 

[Christopher0121]

I agree with a lot of what you say regarding the Ten Commandments found in Exodus 20 written by the finger of God. The earthy sanctuary was just a replica of the heavenly sanctuary where God dwells and has an ark of the covenant, the Ten Commandments in the Most Holy of His Temple Revelation 11:19 so I agree God’s law is eternal and sad so many people can’t see this. Love fulfills the law when we keep them as God says right in the Ten Commandments Exodus 20:6 as well as John- For this is the love of God, that we keep, His commandments 1 John 5:3.

What I don’t agree is that all the laws of Moses ended. What is stated in scripture is the law of ordinances (ceremonial) is what ended Colossians 2:14 with Jesus being our perfect Sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins and for sanctification. Some examples would be love God with all your heart, love your neighbor all coming from the law of Moses. Leviticus 19:18 Deuteronomy 6:5, our bodies haven’t changed and nothing in scripture saying the health laws ended, or the civil laws- if a neighbors animal wonders on your property- bring it back. Tithing didn’t end- God owns 100% of everything and only asks for 10% back to Him. Just like God gives of six days to do the things we need to do and only asks for 1 day to worship/foster our relationship with Him. We have a very reasonable God and unfortunately many don’t see Him this way.

Anyway, thanks for engaging!

While the commandments to love one's neighbor are contained in the Law of Moses, Jesus clearly elevated them out of it as universal law and principle. We see this repeatedly throughout the NT as you pointed out.

Tithing was only binding upon agriculture within the boundaries of the Holy Land. It wasn't binding upon trades such as carpentry or any other profession. Even modern day Judaism draws such distinctions.

In fact, it was a violation of the Mosaic tithing law to tithe actual money (coinage). ONLY if one lived so far from Jerusalem that they couldn't bring a tithe of their crops and livestock were they permitted to sell it and thereby exchange it for cash money. And even then, this money wasn't to be just given to the Levites, it was to be spent in the locale of Jerusalem for anything their hearts desired in the way of feast and drink.

If tithing continued under the New Covenant... where did the Apostles stash away all the animals and harvested grain? If tithing continued in the Church, most wouldn't have even tithed on account of most being servants and tradesmen, not farmers. The early Church was sustained through the sharing of all money and possessions. They lived communally caring for their widows and poor together in smaller private communities. As a result, when the Church began to grow and expand they sustained their churches through offerings. Everyone gave and shared what they were able. There wasn't a 10% limitation as to minimum or maximum. You'll note that the topic of tithing was brought up several times in the councils and was rejected until the Church ruled that tithes were acceptable if imposed on Church managed lands (wherever the Church served as landlord): Council of Tours in 567 & and in the Third Council of Mâcon in AD 585. Point is... it took over 500 years for tithing to be established in the Church. And even then, it was an agrarian land tax exempting all who didn't own land, not an income tax.

 

[Leaf473]

Strawman, although I may be partly responsible. Yes, Jesus instructs Jews to keep the Law because, it ends at the cross, not before. I never intended to suggest that Jesus ends the Law before the Cross.

That would fit well with what Jesus says here. Basically, keep the entire law, just don't lose your priorities.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
Matthew 23 NIV

 

[Leaf473]

You are not respecting the semantic range (scope of possible meanings) of the verb "fulfill". It is beyond dispute that to "fulfill" a thing X can, repeat can, entail bringing X to a close. If I buy a sports car, I can say I 'fulfilled' the dream of owning such a car.

Do I continue to dream about getting a sports car? Of course not.

Probably similar to how the same writer uses the same root word at the beginning of the book. Something was prophesied, it took place, and the prophecy was fulfilled.

'Now all this has happened, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son. They shall call his name Immanuel."'

 

[Christopher0121]

I would suggest that the position you outlined in this post is not a biblical one but one that Jesus warns us about in Matthew 15:3-9 that can lead us away from God and His Word into following man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God. I would respectfully suggest that if everyone turned to Christ through believing and following His Word, putting away all sin and seeking God's forgiveness (Proverbs 28:13; Acts of the Apostles 2:38; 1 John 1:9) and asked Jesus to be their guide and teacher seeking Him through His Word alone then God would make known the meaning of His Word through His Spirit according to His promises *John 16:13: John 7:17; 1 John 2:27; Hebrews 8:11, as it is written "Cursed is every man that trusts in man, and makes flesh his arm, and whose heart departs from the LORD."

May God bless you as you seek Him through His Word.

We must never trust solely in man. However, within the Church we know that Jesus gave the keys to Peter to bind and loose as it relates to Christian interpretation and practice. We see Peter use this authority in Acts 15 in the Council of Jerusalem to settle disputes relating to if Gentile converts should be circumcized or not. (Matthew 16:17-19; Acts 15:6-12) We also know that Paul commanded Christians to obey those who are appointed over them (Hebrews 13:17). This establishes the first of the Magisterium.

Then you have Paul himself commanding believers to keep the traditions passed down to them by word of mouth which is unwritten oral tradition, or letter, which means Epistle, or Sacred Scripture (2 Thessalonians 2:15). This establishes the veins of both Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

So, Scripture itself commands the Christian to obey the Magisterium of the Church and to keep the traditions handed down to her by word or written epistle. If a Christian refuses to submit to Scripture, Church Authority, or Sacred Tradition they are essentially creating a schism, or worse (a heresy) and cutting themselves off from the Holy Church of Scripture itself. This is why among non-Catholics who profess to be "Bible Only" you have 20 THOUSAND private interpretations forming over 20 THOUSAND denominations and interpretations of that Bible. lol

I'm Catholic, we've kept the traditions handed down to us by both word and epistle dating from the first centuries. We were keeping these traditions before we compiled, translated, and canonized what you embrace as the Bible. lol You clearly honor the epistles. But what traditions or tradition does your church hold that was passed down by word of mouth?

2 Thessalonians 2:15
New Catholic Bible
Therefore, stand firm, brethren, and hold fast to the traditions that you have been taught, whether by word of mouth or by a letter of ours.​

 

[expos4ever]

The "Law of Moses" (Torah) contains a written description of these tablets (in Exodus) along with the 303 additional Laws God gave Israel.

I believe most scholars consider the 10 Commandments to be part of the Law of Moses. From a wikipedia article on "The Law of Moses":

The content of the Law is spread among the books of Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers, and then reiterated and added to in Deuteronomy. This includes:

• The Ten Commandments
• Moral laws – on murder, theft, honesty, adultery, etc.
• Social laws – on property, inheritance, marriage and divorce.
• Food laws – on what is clean and unclean, on cooking and storing food.
• Purity laws – on menstruation, seminal emissions, skin disease and mildew, etc.
• Feasts – the Day of Atonement, Passover, Feast of Tabernacles, Feast of Unleavened Bread, Feast of Weeks etc.
• Sacrifices and offerings – the sin offering, burnt offering, whole offering, heave offering, Passover sacrifice, meal offering, wave offering, peace offering, drink offering, thank offering, dough offering, incense offering, red heifer, scapegoat, first fruits, etc.
• Instructions for the priesthood and the high priest, including tithes.
• Instructions regarding the Tabernacle, and which were later applied to the Temple in Jerusalem, including those concerning the Holy of Holies containing the Ark of the Covenant (in which were the tablets of the law, Aaron's rod, the manna). Instructions and for the construction of various altars.
• Forward looking instructions for time when Israel would demand a king.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

We must never trust solely in man. However, within the Church we know that Jesus gave the keys to Peter to bind and loose as it relates to Christian interpretation and practice. We see Peter use this authority in Acts 15 in the Council of Jerusalem to settle disputes relating to if Gentile converts should be circumcized or not. (Matthew 16:17-19; Acts 15:6-12) We also know that Paul commanded Christians to obey those who are appointed over them (Hebrews 13:17). This establishes the first of the Magisterium.

Then you have Paul himself commanding believers to keep the traditions passed down to them by word of mouth which is unwritten oral tradition, or letter, which means Epistle, or Sacred Scripture (2 Thessalonians 2:15). This establishes the veins of both Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

So, Scripture itself commands the Christian to obey the Magisterium of the Church and to keep the traditions handed down to her by word or written epistle. If a Christian refuses to submit to Scripture, Church Authority, or Sacred Tradition they are essentially creating a schism, or worse, a heresy and cutting themselves off from the Holy Church of Scripture itself.

I'm Catholic, we've kept the traditions handed down to us by both word and epistle dating from the first centuries. You clearly honor the epistles. But what traditions or tradition does your church hold that was passed down by word of mouth?

2 Thessalonians 2:15
New Catholic Bible
Therefore, stand firm, brethren, and hold fast to the traditions that you have been taught, whether by word of mouth or by a letter of ours.​

The problem with your view is that the bibles definition of "the Church" is different from the one your proposing here. "God's Church" according to the scriptures is simply all those who have been called out from the world to believe and follow what Gods' Word says. The Greek word for "Church" is ἐκκλησία (ekklēsía | G1577) means all those who have been called out or a community of God's saints on the earth who worship God. According to Jesus we are to worship God in Spirit and in truth *John 4:23-24 and the biblical definition of truth is only found in Jesus who is the living word of God who today has given us His written Words that we are to believe and follow. *see John 14:6; John 6:63; Matthew 4:4; John 17:17. "The faith" that all of Gods' true church" remains in therefore is the truth of Gods Word. This defines what Gods' true Church is. God's Word never teaches anywhere that we are to obey the laws of men over the Words of God. As Peter says in Acts of the Apostles 5:29 if someone is giving us laws that lead us away from Gods' Word to disobey Gods' Word we are to obey God rather than man. There is nothing wrong with "traditions" in and of themselves according to the scriptures. Jesus however, warns us that if we follow man-made teachings and traditions that lead us away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God we are no longer worshiping God but the man-made teachings and traditions we are choosing to follow over the Word of God. This agrees with the scripture you quoted from 2 Thessalonians 2:15 which by the way is talking about traditions based on the scriptures, not the teachings and traditions of men that lead many to break the commandments of God.

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I believe most scholars consider the 10 Commandments to be part of the Law of Moses. From a wikipedia article on "The Law of Moses":

The content of the Law is spread among the books of Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers, and then reiterated and added to in Deuteronomy. This includes:

• The Ten Commandments
• Moral laws – on murder, theft, honesty, adultery, etc.
• Social laws – on property, inheritance, marriage and divorce.
• Food laws – on what is clean and unclean, on cooking and storing food.
• Purity laws – on menstruation, seminal emissions, skin disease and mildew, etc.
• Feasts – the Day of Atonement, Passover, Feast of Tabernacles, Feast of Unleavened Bread, Feast of Weeks etc.
• Sacrifices and offerings – the sin offering, burnt offering, whole offering, heave offering, Passover sacrifice, meal offering, wave offering, peace offering, drink offering, thank offering, dough offering, incense offering, red heifer, scapegoat, first fruits, etc.
• Instructions for the priesthood and the high priest, including tithes.
• Instructions regarding the Tabernacle, and which were later applied to the Temple in Jerusalem, including those concerning the Holy of Holies containing the Ark of the Covenant (in which were the tablets of the law, Aaron's rod, the manna). Instructions and for the construction of various altars.
• Forward looking instructions for time when Israel would demand a king.

I see from your post here that the problem your having is in understanding the difference between the Mosaic "shadow laws" of the old covenant with God's "eternal laws" in the both covenants that give us the knowledge of good and evil. According to the scriptures the purpose of God's 10 commandments (not 9, or 613) is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) when obeyed and evil (moral wrong doing when disobeyed); sin (moral wrong doing when disobeyed) and righteousness (moral right doing when obeyed) *see Romans 7:7; James 2:10-11; Romans 3:20 and 1 John 3:4 and to lead us to Christ that we might all be forgiven through faith (see Galatians 3:22-25; Matthew 9:12-13) so that we can be born again *1 John 3:4-9 and made free to walk in Gods' Spirit *Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4. This is Gods' new covenant promise to all those who believe and follow Gods Word according to Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27.

Take Care.

 

[Christopher0121]

I believe most scholars consider the 10 Commandments to be part of the Law of Moses. From a wikipedia article on "The Law of Moses":

The content of the Law is spread among the books of Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers, and then reiterated and added to in Deuteronomy. This includes:

• The Ten Commandments
• Moral laws – on murder, theft, honesty, adultery, etc.
• Social laws – on property, inheritance, marriage and divorce.
• Food laws – on what is clean and unclean, on cooking and storing food.
• Purity laws – on menstruation, seminal emissions, skin disease and mildew, etc.
• Feasts – the Day of Atonement, Passover, Feast of Tabernacles, Feast of Unleavened Bread, Feast of Weeks etc.
• Sacrifices and offerings – the sin offering, burnt offering, whole offering, heave offering, Passover sacrifice, meal offering, wave offering, peace offering, drink offering, thank offering, dough offering, incense offering, red heifer, scapegoat, first fruits, etc.
• Instructions for the priesthood and the high priest, including tithes.
• Instructions regarding the Tabernacle, and which were later applied to the Temple in Jerusalem, including those concerning the Holy of Holies containing the Ark of the Covenant (in which were the tablets of the law, Aaron's rod, the manna). Instructions and for the construction of various altars.
• Forward looking instructions for time when Israel would demand a king.

Wikipedia? LOL

Keep in mind the Ten Commandments (Law of God) was written on two stone tablets. Those are believed to be lost. The only record we have of them is recorded IN the Law of Moses (Torah) handed down to us, but those scrolls are not the tablets. lol

They were even stored separately. The tablets containing the 10 Commandments (Law of God) were stored inside the ark. The Law of Moses (Torah Scrolls completed over 30 years later) in the side of the Ark. Hopefully this image will explain how they were even stored separately...

It confuses folks because the only record we have of what was written in the Law of God is recorded in the Law of Moses, the tablets were lost with the ark. So, whenever someone is referencing the 10 Commandments, they are referencing what is recorded about them in the Law of Moses, and so it is common to speak of such references as belonging to the Law of Moses. But in tangible reality the two bodies of law were separate and quite distinct. One was universal and received on Sinai. The other was relating only to Israel and was completed by Moses over 30 years later just prior to the nation of Israel entering the Promised Land.

Without this distinction some people claim ALL the laws are abolished (which means there can't be any sinners) or some people will try to argue that ALL laws are still standing and create a cultic Jewish/Christian hybrid of Hebraic law keeping. Then there are those who intuitively know that the laws binding on Israel (Law of Moses) are somehow abrogated, but pick and choose what they see as "moral laws" out of the Law of Moses like it is a buffet bar because they also understand some form of law must still stand to condemn sin.

When this distinction is made... it all comes together beautifully.

 

[Christopher0121]

Consider...

Matthew 5:18
New Catholic Bible
18 Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single letter, not even a tiny portion of a letter, will disappear from the Law until all things have been accomplished.

Ephesians 2:14-16
New Catholic Bible
14 For he is our peace,
who has made the two into one,
by breaking down the barrier of hostility.
In his flesh
15 he has abolished the Law
with its commandments and ordinances,
so that he might create in himself
a single new person out of the two,
thereby making peace,
16 and that he might reconcile both groups
to God in one body
through the cross,
thereby putting that enmity to death.​

Now, these passages would seem to be contradictory... unless we're talking about two distinct bodies of law.

The Law of God (Ten Commandments) still stand to condemn sin. However, all the ordinances written by Moses that were binding strictly upon the nation of Israel, and written by Moses on scrolls stored in the side of the ark, are abolished.

Case closed.

 

[Leaf473]

There technically isn't an "Old Covenant". There is an Old Testament, a testimony regarding the covenants of God between various parties.

The Covenants of the Old Testament are:

Adamic
Edenic
Noahic
Abrahamic
Mosaic
Davidic
(Some include a Palestinian)

Well... not to get sidetracked, but I think there is something called "the old covenant". One of the unfortunate happenings in translation history is that the King James sometimes renders that same "Covenant" word as "Testament".

"...for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament..."
Bible Gateway passage: 2 Corinthians 3 - King James Version

"...for to this present day the same veil remains unlifted when they read the old covenant..."
Bible Gateway passage: 2 Corinthians 3 - New American Bible (Revised Edition)

 

[Christopher0121]

The problem with your view is that the bibles definition of "the Church" is different from the one your proposing here. "God's Church" according to the scriptures is simply all those who have been called out from the world to believe and follow what Gods' Word says. The Greek word for "Church" is ἐκκλησία (ekklēsía | G1577) means all those who have been called out or a community of God's saints on the earth who worship God. According to Jesus we are to worship God in Spirit and in truth *John 4:23-24 and the biblical definition of truth is only found in Jesus who is the living word of God who today has given us His written Words that we are to believe and follow. *see John 14:6; John 6:63; Matthew 4:4; John 17:17. "The faith" that all of Gods' true church" remains in therefore is the truth of Gods Word. This defines what Gods' true Church is. God's Word never teaches anywhere that we are to obey the laws of men over the Words of God. As Peter says in Acts of the Apostles 5:29 if someone is giving us laws that lead us away from Gods' Word to disobey Gods' Word we are to obey God rather than man. There is nothing wrong with "traditions" in and of themselves according to the scriptures. Jesus however, warns us that if we follow man-made teachings and traditions that lead us away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God we are no longer worshiping God but the man-made teachings and traditions we are choosing to follow over the Word of God. This agrees with the scripture you quoted from 2 Thessalonians 2:15 which by the way is talking about traditions based on the scriptures, not the teachings and traditions of men that lead many to break the commandments of God.

Take Care.

I think you're misunderstanding me. The Scripture, Magisterium, and Sacred Tradition are to agree and point to Christ.

We are not to take one over the other. We are not to value tradition over Scripture, nor Scripture over tradition. Nor Magisterium over either. They are brought into a harmony which has governed the our Church for over 20 centuries... going all the way back to when Jesus founded our Church upon Peter.

Frankly, everything else is a modern garage band startup church. lol

 

[Christopher0121]

Well... not to get sidetracked, but I think there is something called "the old covenant". One of the unfortunate happenings in translation history is that the King James sometimes renders that same "Covenant" word as "Testament".

"...for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament..."
Bible Gateway passage: 2 Corinthians 3 - King James Version

"...for to this present day the same veil remains unlifted when they read the old covenant..."
Bible Gateway passage: 2 Corinthians 3 - New American Bible (Revised Edition)

There are a number of "covenants" in the OT. Which one is specifically the "Old Covenant"?

You see... if we understand "Testament" as it relates to "Testimony" and not "Covenant" we realize that the Old Testament is a testimony of all previous covenants relating to God, mankind, and specifically Israel.

 

[Christopher0121]

The problem with your view is that the bibles definition of "the Church" is different from the one your proposing here. "God's Church" according to the scriptures is simply all those who have been called out from the world to believe and follow what Gods' Word says. The Greek word for "Church" is ἐκκλησία (ekklēsía | G1577) means all those who have been called out or a community of God's saints on the earth who worship God. According to Jesus we are to worship God in Spirit and in truth *John 4:23-24 and the biblical definition of truth is only found in Jesus who is the living word of God who today has given us His written Words that we are to believe and follow. *see John 14:6; John 6:63; Matthew 4:4; John 17:17. "The faith" that all of Gods' true church" remains in therefore is the truth of Gods Word. This defines what Gods' true Church is. God's Word never teaches anywhere that we are to obey the laws of men over the Words of God. As Peter says in Acts of the Apostles 5:29 if someone is giving us laws that lead us away from Gods' Word to disobey Gods' Word we are to obey God rather than man. There is nothing wrong with "traditions" in and of themselves according to the scriptures. Jesus however, warns us that if we follow man-made teachings and traditions that lead us away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God we are no longer worshiping God but the man-made teachings and traditions we are choosing to follow over the Word of God. This agrees with the scripture you quoted from 2 Thessalonians 2:15 which by the way is talking about traditions based on the scriptures, not the teachings and traditions of men that lead many to break the commandments of God.

Take Care.

Here's an example of how it works. Let's look at a few texts...

Revelation 5:8
New Catholic Bible
When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders prostrated themselves before the Lamb. Each of the elders was holding a harp, and they had gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Revelation 8:3
Another angel came forward with a gold censer and stood at the altar. He was given a large quantity of incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the gold altar that stood before the throne.

Revelation 8:4
New Catholic Bible
The smoke of the incense together with the prayers of the saints rose before God from the hand of the angel.​

Here we see the 24 "elders" holding bowls filled with incense representing the prayers of the saints. We then see an angel offering intercession with incense along with the prayers of the saints. Why are the elders (Heavenly saints) and the angels involving themselves in the prayers of the saints? Why is there a liturgical service taking place complete with incense, candles, and declarations before the throne of God wherein these intercessions are taking place?

The Bible doesn't tell us much that allows us to answer these questions. It is clear that Heavenly Saints and angels involve themselves through liturgical intercession on behalf of the Church on earth. However, the Church Fathers, Councils, and Magisterium have indeed commented on these things and explained them within the bounds of the Christian faith and tradition going back to the first and second centuries. Without Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium... these things are just backdrop. With Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium, these things take on a living reality to be embraced within the everyday life of the believer.

 

[Christopher0121]

The problem with your view is that the bibles definition of "the Church" is different from the one your proposing here. "God's Church" according to the scriptures is simply all those who have been called out from the world to believe and follow what Gods' Word says. The Greek word for "Church" is ἐκκλησία (ekklēsía | G1577) means all those who have been called out or a community of God's saints on the earth who worship God. According to Jesus we are to worship God in Spirit and in truth *John 4:23-24 and the biblical definition of truth is only found in Jesus who is the living word of God who today has given us His written Words that we are to believe and follow. *see John 14:6; John 6:63; Matthew 4:4; John 17:17. "The faith" that all of Gods' true church" remains in therefore is the truth of Gods Word. This defines what Gods' true Church is. God's Word never teaches anywhere that we are to obey the laws of men over the Words of God. As Peter says in Acts of the Apostles 5:29 if someone is giving us laws that lead us away from Gods' Word to disobey Gods' Word we are to obey God rather than man. There is nothing wrong with "traditions" in and of themselves according to the scriptures. Jesus however, warns us that if we follow man-made teachings and traditions that lead us away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God we are no longer worshiping God but the man-made teachings and traditions we are choosing to follow over the Word of God. This agrees with the scripture you quoted from 2 Thessalonians 2:15 which by the way is talking about traditions based on the scriptures, not the teachings and traditions of men that lead many to break the commandments of God.

Take Care.

As I meditate and ponder these things, I'm reminded that there are a lot of things that can only be understood if one leans on not only Scripture, but Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium.

Another example would be icons.

The New Testament doesn't really mention icons at all. Many would be totally in the dark regarding their role in the Christian faith. Many would outright condemn them, mistakenly calling them idols.

BUT... when we turn to the Church Fathers, Councils, and the Magisterium we learn how many of the early Christians were illiterate and used paintings on catacomb and church walls to teach NT stories, lessons, theological concepts, etc. We also learn that these began to be painted on wood and made into forms we know today which include framed images and statues. We learn that these were popular in the first centuries of Christianity because there was no canonized canon of Scripture established until nearly the 5th century. We also learn that these were regarded as "Word of God" and painting an icon was called "writing" it.

So, they are older than the Bible, they were used to teach in Christian churches before the Bible was established. We begin to realize their veneration was the result of seeing them as visual aides or media teaching the Word of God and were therefore regarded as being as sacred as Scripture itself. For example, my Avatar. It is an ancient Icon depicting the two natures of Christ. This icon is used to teach about how Christ possessed both a human and divine nature in hypostasis. The observer will notice in my Avatar that each side of Christ's face is different. This is no accident. It depicts Christ's full humanity and full divinity...

This icon was used to teach a Church that could barely read about the hypostatic union between Christ's humanity and divinity. Those who couldn't read, or gained divine insight from such icons "venerated" them. Protestants only "venerate" Scripture. However, ancient Christians "venerated" truth be it found in Scripture or artistic expressions of the Scripture. And so for many these icons are as sacred as the Word of God itself, being artistic expressions of said Word.

The Iconoclasts tried to destroy icons in the early Church. However, the Councils eventually affirmed them and their veneration to be orthodox Christian practice. They are said to be "windows of Heaven" into "heavenly realities". The Councils pointed out that to condemn them and their veneration would condemn centuries of Christians who couldn't read and centuries of Churches who taught concepts hard to be grasped without them. And so, they are affirmed by tradition and are NOT to be considered "idols".

Many Protestants or non-Catholics condemn these things without any historical consideration of how poor and illiterate much of the early Church was. They also condemn icons without considering that there was no printing press and that the Bible wasn't even compiled until the 5th century. In a very real sense... such a judgment comes from being privileged to have lived in an age with not only a compiled Bible (compiled by our Councils by the way) but in an age with a printing press.

Only by consulting Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium are such things properly discerned. Else one walks off a cliff divorced from all historicity and Christian practice down through the ages.

 

[expos4ever]

Then we have Gods Word that disagree with your words from the very words of Jesus that says; " For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." - Matthew 5:18. Sounds like the end of time to me.

You are simply evading the argument I have provided and simply claiming that a literal interpretation is appropriate. That is not how proper debate proceeds.

Please address my actual argument.