Did Christ at the cross end all the laws?

[SabbathBlessings]

So then we do serve in the Spirit plus letter? Is that what you're saying?

If we truly serve the Spirit, we will have a changed heart and the letter will automatically be kept. God's law is good for us.

 

[Leaf473]

It's not characters, its the law personally written by God. It's only characters if it doesn't mean something. The law was written in stone by the finger of God, that God now writes in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant. Hebrews 8:10 We obey the law out of love 1 John 5:3, John 14:15, John 15:10, Exodus 20:6 and it is activated when we become doers of the law Romans 2:13, James 1:22, Revelation 22:14

I agree thatGod writes in our hearts and minds, but it's not letters that he writes.

 

[Leaf473]

If we truly serve the Spirit, we will have a changed heart and the letter will automatically be kept. God's law is good for us.

Is that a Yes? We serve in Spirit plus letter?

 

[expos4ever]

We are told those who willfully sin, there remains no more sacrifice Hebrews 10:26-30 and believe it or not all I am trying to do is help before its too late.

Your intent may admirable, but misdirected. Surely you have to know that sin exists independent of the 10 commandments!

What about the millions / billions who have either lived before the 10 were given or have otherwise never heard them. Are they not sinners?

You leverage some texts that tell us that the Law tells us what sin is. Fine, but you systematically, I think, make the logical error of believing it is the only thing that could ever tell us what sin is. And, I believe, you systematically ignore the fact that the 10 commandments, along with the rest of the Law, were given to Jews and Jews only.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I agree thatGod writes in our hearts and minds, but it's not letters that he writes.

The letter is what points out sin so we know what not to break. 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7 Romans 3:20 We serve by the Spirit. The two work in harmony and not in conflict. John 14:15-18 It's only in conflict if you keep the law only by the letter and don't have the Spirit, or are breaking the law (letter), one who breaks the law cannot serve the Spirit.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Is that a Yes? We serve in Spirit plus letter?

Answered previously. I need to get some work done so take care.

 

[Leaf473]

The letter is what points out sin so we know what not to break. 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7 Romans 3:20 We serve by the Spirit. The two work in harmony and not in conflict. John 14:15-18 It's only in conflict if you keep the law only be the letter and don't have the Spirit, or are breaking the law, one who breaks the law cannot serve by the Spirit.

Answered previously. I need to get some work done so take care.

May things go well in your work!

If one who breaks the letter of the law cannot serve by the Spirit, and it sounds to me like we would be serving in the Spirit plus letter.

If you don't want to give any more details, that's fine.

 

[expos4ever]

If the law was “retired” why does the devil care if God’s saints keep the commandments of God?

Obviously, there are "commandments of God" other than the 613 elements of the Law of Moses (including the 10).

I know you want to hang your hat on this one verse from Paul, which I have explained previously, if one is walking in the Spirit, they are obeying the commandments.

First, Paul declares the end of the Law many times other than Romans 7. Ephesians 2 and Romans 10 to name just two.

Where does Scripture tell us that if we are walking in the Spirit, we keep the 10 commandments?

I believe your only answer to Romans 7:6 is to redefine words! You take the concept of "serving according to the letter" and morph it into "being condemned by the letter". Do you really want to hang your hat on that line of reasoning? The sky is the limit if you are going to redefine the meaning of words - one can make scripture say anything.

You can’t walk in the Spirit and sin. When it says we are released from the law, it means the condemnation...

This is a contrived interpretation that does great violence to Paul's actual wording that we no longer serve according to the letter. Words have meanings and unless you can show that the original greek for the word translated as "serve" means "to be released from condemnation", I think that Romans 7:6 is fatal to your position.

 

[expos4ever]

So it's not a "coincidence" that murder is still a sin in the New Testament because God, the Creator of all things, including the Ten Commandments written by His own finger writes His law in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10.

Circular reasoning.

You are essentially assuming the very thing you need to make a case for - that the 10 are still in force as a prescriptive code. Let me try to explain since the issues here are admittedly subtle.

If, repeat if, the Spirit prompts our conscience to let us know that we should not murder, the result is the same as if we had consulted a written code. But we have not, in fact, followed a written code at all - we have simply listened to the Spirit.

Maybe I misunderstand you but you appear to believe that if the Spirit happens to tell us something we could otherwise learn from the 10, then this means the 10 are still in force.

But that is rather obviously wrong - if we have an inner guide, then we do not need the 10 commandments. As others are saying, the "coincidence" that the Spirit guides us to not murder does not, by any reasonable standard, indicate that the commandment to not murder is still in effect.

 

[expos4ever]

The letter is what points out sin so we know what not to break. 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7 Romans 3:20

For the fourth time:

1 John 3:4: this text does not mention the Law of Moses! Yes, sin is lawlessness, but this does not mean that a particular law - the Law of Moses including the 10 - remains in effect.

Romans 3:20: Context is key. You are conveniently silent on the fact that, in context, Paul is describing what was the case - that the Law did, in the past, let the Jew know what sin was. How do we know that this is now in the past? The very next verse! But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been revealed, ....

Romans 7:7: You do not account for context. Once more, you remain conveniently tight-lipped on the fact that Paul has just told us that we no longer serve the Law. In context, and this can be argued at length, Paul believes the time of the Law has come to an end, but he can still praise it for the role it played in an evolving plan.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

For the fourth time
1 John 3:4: this text does not mention the Law of Moses! Yes, sin is lawlessness, but this does not mean that a particular law - the Law of Moses including the 10 - remains in effect.Romans 3:20: Context is key. You are conveniently silent on the fact that, in context, Paul is describing what was the case - that the Law did, in the past, let the Jew know what sin was. How do we know that this is now in the past? The very next verse! But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been revealed, .... Romans 7:7: You do not account for context. Once more, you remain conveniently tight-lipped on the fact that Paul has just told us that we no longer serve the Law. In context, and this can be argued at length, Paul believes the time of the Law has come to an end, but he can still praise it for the role it played in an evolving plan.

I know your post was for someone else. I hope you do not mind me sharing a few scriptures that might be helpful to the discussion for anyone who might be interested. A teaching of lawlessness (without law) is not biblical and is a false teaching according to the scriptures. If there is no law we have no knowledge of what sin is and have no need of Gods salvation. In fact according to the scriptures, Jesus taught us saying do not think I have come to destroy the law and the prophets in Matthew 5:17-20. That is do not even let it come into your mind and goes on to say, "unless our righteousness exceeds that of the Scribes and the Pharisees we will not enter into the Kingdom of God *see Matthew 5:20; Matthew 23:27-31. According to the scriptures, Jesus came to fulfill not to abolish Gods' law. Anyone teaching Gods' law is abolished is teaching lawlessness (without law) which is not biblical. According to the scriptures, Jesus came to fulfill all righteousness *Matthew 3:15 and all things written of Him in the scriptures (e.g. Matthew 2:15; 23; Matthew 4:13-14; 8:16-17; 12-16:17; 13:35; 21:4; Matthew 27:35 etc) not abolish the 10 commandments.

Matthew 5:20 is interesting because on the outside the Scribes and Pharisees as Jesus taught appeared righteous to men. They appeared to others as outwardly blameless in regards to following God's laws but inwardly they were full of sin and like dead man bones *Matthew 23:27 breaking God's law *Matthew 23:27-28. Then Jesus says; For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven *Matthew 5:20. The scripture in Isaiah 42:21 show that Jesus came in fact to magnify the law and to make it honorable and to teach the true meaning of God's Law and that it is to be applied from the inside out to our very thoughts and feelings. It is not therefore good enough to have an outward appearance before men of being obedient to Gods' law. God reads the heart and knows we are all sick with sin *Matthew 15:19-20; Matthew 12:34-35; Jeremiah 13:23; Jeremiah 17:9-10; Matthew 15:19-20; John 5:42 and in need of a new heart and of a Saviour to save us from sin. Many do not know the meaning here according to Jesus in Matthew 9:12-13. Jesus then goes on to magnify Gods' 10 commandments in Matthew 5:21-28 where he talks about murdering your fellow man by being angry with them without reason or committing adultery in our thoughts by looking lustfully at a woman. Think it through dear friend. If Jesus was abolishing Gods' 10 commandments he would not be magnifying them and applying them to our very thoughts and feelings.

Sin is indeed the breaking of any one of God's 10 commandments according to James in James 2:10-11 who quotes the 6th and 7th commandment which agrees with Paul in Romans 7:7 where he says that the purpose of Gods' 10 commandments (quoting the 10th commandment) is to give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken. This agrees with what Paul says in Romans 3:20 where he says for by the law we have a knowledge of what sin is when we break it. All the above of course agree with John who defines sin as the transgression of the law in 1 John 3:4. So your interpretation of the above scriptures is not biblical or supported in scripture.

According to the scriptures quoted above therefore the purpose of God's 10 commandments (not 9, or 613) is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) when obeyed and evil (moral wrong doing when disobeyed); sin (moral wrong doing when disobeyed) and righteousness (moral right doing when obeyed) *see Romans 7:7; James 2:10-11; Romans 3:20 and 1 John 3:4 and to lead us to Christ that we might all be forgiven through faith (see Galatians 3:22-25; Matthew 9:12-13) so that we can be born again *1 John 3:4-9 and made free to walk in Gods' Spirit *Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4. This is Gods' new covenant promise to all those who believe and follow Gods Word according to Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27.

A teaching of lawlessness (my meaning here of course is without law) or God's law being abolished is pretty much a teaching against the whole bible and John answers the question how do we know that we know God? He says "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." - 1 John 2:2-3. Further on we read from John in 1 John 3:6 "Whoever abides in Him sins not (see 1 John 3:4). Whoever sins (breaks Gods' law) has not seen Him or knows him."

So to claim that we know God while disregarding Gods' law is a teaching that is not biblical or stated anywhere in the scriptures. In fact in Proverbs 28:9 we read He that turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination. We should also keep in mind that according to the scriptures, Jesus and all the Apostles upheld and taught Gods' law and everyone of Gods' 10 commandments are repeated in the new covenant as the standard of good and righteousness when obeyed and evil and sin when disobeyed (scripture support here and here linked).

………….

So what is the conclusion of the matter?

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: FEAR GOD, AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: FOR THIS IS THE WHOLE DUTY OF MAN.

God’s law (10 commandments) is not abolished. They never have been. According to Gods' new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 26:24-27 they are fulfilled and established in the life of a Spirit filled, born again believer as they believe God’s Word and abide in Christ and walk in His Spirit through faith *Galatians 5:16; Romans 3:31; Romans 8:4. Gods' Word does not teach lawlessness (without law). According to the scriptures, if we continue in known unrepentant sin we will not enter into God's Kingdom *see Hebrews 10:26-31; Romans 8:13; Matthew 7:21; Romans 6:23; Revelation 14:12.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[Guojing]

And what you call the true Israel? For them, did all laws end either at the cross or at the destruction of the Temple?

By the time AD 70 arrived, I think almost all of them, except for perhaps John, has already been martyred.

As far as Acts 21:18-25 goes, they continue to be zealous for the Law all the way till their death, you can check out the historical story of James the Just.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

For the fourth time:

1 John 3:4: this text does not mention the Law of Moses! Yes, sin is lawlessness, but this does not mean that a particular law - the Law of Moses including the 10 - remains in effect.

Romans 3:20: Context is key. You are conveniently silent on the fact that, in context, Paul is describing what was the case - that the Law did, in the past, let the Jew know what sin was. How do we know that this is now in the past? The very next verse! But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been revealed, ....

Romans 7:7: You do not account for context. Once more, you remain conveniently tight-lipped on the fact that Paul has just told us that we no longer serve the Law. In context, and this can be argued at length, Paul believes the time of the Law has come to an end, but he can still praise it for the role it played in an evolving plan.

I don’t think you saying it for the fifth time is going to change the scriptures.

Sin is the transgression of God's law according to scripture, so I am going with scripture on this.

1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

Sin is lawlessness and the law Paul quotes directly from the Ten Commandments.

James says you break one of the commandments - quoting from the Ten Commandments its like breaking them all and how we will be judged. James 2:10-12

Which is what Jesus says too: Matthew 5: 21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment, again quoting from the Ten Commandments.

Even if what you think what Paul is saying is true (which is out of context) does Paul have authority over what Jesus says out of His own mouth?

John 14:15 15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments.

Matthew 19:17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ” quoted directly from the Ten Commandments and the greatest commandments from the law of Moses on how we are to love our neighbor.

Matthew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Then Jesus quotes directly from the Ten.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

How does what Jesus say compare to Paul? Either one is contradicting the other or perhaps there are some misunderstandings on what Paul is saying regarding the law. Paul does not contradict himself when he says what matters IS keeping the commandments of God. 1 Cor 7:19 so I think there are some misunderstandings here. We have been warned in scripture many misinterpret Paul's writings to their own destruction. I would consider this warning.

2 Peter 3:14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; (means without sin) 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Jesus says- If you love Me, keep My commandments. John 14:15

God bless

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Circular reasoning.

You are essentially assuming the very thing you need to make a case for - that the 10 are still in force as a prescriptive code. Let me try to explain since the issues here are admittedly subtle.

If, repeat if, the Spirit prompts our conscience to let us know that we should not murder, the result is the same as if we had consulted a written code. But we have not, in fact, followed a written code at all - we have simply listened to the Spirit.

Maybe I misunderstand you but you appear to believe that if the Spirit happens to tell us something we could otherwise learn from the 10, then this means the 10 are still in force.

But that is rather obviously wrong - if we have an inner guide, then we do not need the 10 commandments. As others are saying, the "coincidence" that the Spirit guides us to not murder does not, by any reasonable standard, indicate that the commandment to not murder is still in effect.

No, I place my trust in Jesus and when He quotes directly from the Ten Commandments and tells us we should keep the least of the commandments, I believe Him. Matthew 5:19-30 I believe Jesus when He tells us If you love Me, keep My commandments, which He quotes verbatim from the Ten Exodus 20:6. I believe God when He tells us He shows mercy to thousands who love Him and keep His commandments, which He wrote with His own finger, placed in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of His Temple where He dwells and the Ten Commandments are placed under His mercy seat which is revealed in heaven, Revelation 11:19 So of course they are still in force, it is what we will be judged on James 2:10-12. We should obey God because we love Him and want to obey Him. He is our Creator and Savior so we should believe and do what He asks of us.

 

[expos4ever]

I know your post was for someone else. I hope you do not mind me sharing a few scriptures that might be helpful to the discussion for anyone who might be interested. A teaching of lawlessness (without law) is not biblical and is a false teaching according to the scriptures.

Strawman - I have never denied that sin is lawlessness (and the original greek work translated as "lawlessness" can be translated as "iniquity" which removes the concept of "law", but that is for another post).

I have merely denied that we need a particular law - the Law of Moses including the 10 - to determine what sin is.

 

[expos4ever]

If there is no law we have no knowledge of what sin is and have no need of Gods salvation.

I think it will be hard to defend this assertion Biblically. Paul declares that we no longer serve according to the written code but rather we serve according the Spirit. Yes, Paul affirms that the Law showed the Jew what sin is, but Paul also affirms that things have changed with the giving of the Spirit:

because by the works of the Law none of mankind will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes knowledge of sin.21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

Note the "but now" following the declaration that the Law gives knowledge of sin. You guys systematically omit Romans 3:21 when you cite Romans 3:20 as if it showed that we still need the Law to know what sin is.

But what does Paul say in verse 21? He says "but now" and, yes, apart from the Law.....

God's plan has moved on.

 

[expos4ever]

In fact according to the scriptures, Jesus taught us saying do not think I have come to destroy the law and the prophets in Matthew 5:17-20.

I repeat a detailed argument to the effect that Jesus is not intending us to believe that the Law will persist until literally the end of time:

Jesus was a product of his times and culture and we in the modern west have been careless in understanding the implications. On a surface reading, Matthew 5:17-20 is indeed a challenge to those of us who think the Law of Moses has been retired. Those who hold the opposing view have their own challenges to face, such as Ephesians 2:15 (and Romans 7) which declare the abolition of the Law of Moses.

How can one read Matt 5:17-20 and think that the Law of Moses has been set aside, given that heaven and earth are still here?

There is a way to faithfully read this text and still claim that Law of Moses was retired 2000 years ago as Paul so forcefully argues (e.g. Eph 2:15): In Hebrew culture, “end of the world” language was commonly used metaphorically to invest commonplace events with theological significance.

This is not mere speculation – we have concrete evidence. Isaiah writes:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light

What was going on? Babylon was being destroyed, never to be rebuilt. There are other examples of use of “end of the world” imagery to describe much more “mundane” events within the present space-time manifold.

So it is possible that Jesus is not referring to the destruction of matter, space, and time as the criteria for the retirement of the Law. But what might He mean here? What is the real event for which “heaven and earth passing away” is an apocalyptic metaphor?

It is Jesus’ death on the Cross where He proclaims “It is accomplished”. Note how this dovetails perfectly with the 5:18 declaration that the Law would remain until all is accomplished. Seeing things this way allows us to honour the established tradition of metaphorical end-of-the-world imagery and to take Paul at his word in his many statements which clearly denote the work of Jesus as the point in time at which Law of Moses was retired.

 

[expos4ever]

Jesus says- If you love Me, keep My commandments. John 14:15

Another strawman - no one, of course, is denying that we should keep Jesus's commandments.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Another strawman - no one, of course, is denying that we should keep Jesus's commandments.

You seem to be a bit all over the place in regard to the commandments. You say in one breath we don't have to follow the law, but now we should keep the commandments which is the law. Jesus and God's commandments are the same. Jesus quoted directly from the Ten often references here Did Christ at the cross end all the laws?

The Ten Commandments are in the ark of the covenant, written by the finger of God which is also revealed in Heaven where Jesus dwells, under His mercy seat Revelation 11:19

So when you see Jesus repeating what His Father says almost verbatim- If you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15 is not different than the Father writing right in the Ten Commandments - showing mercy to those who love Me and keep My commandments Exodus 20:6

I think the reason some people may struggle with scripture, because once a meaning is revealed, people think it means something different the next time they see it in scripture. How would anyone understand the bible this way- you can't. It's best to let the scriptures define the commandments of God are most certainly the Ten Commandments Exodus 34:20 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments. Written by the finger of God Exodus 31:18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God. Jesus saying you break the least of these commandments- quoting directly from the Ten, you will be least in heaven. Matthew 5:19-30 Jesus came to magnify the law of God and Jesus and God are not at odds with their own law.

 

[expos4ever]

According to the scriptures, Jesus came to fulfill not to abolish Gods' law.

This has been addressed before. The concept of "fulfillment" can entail something coming to an end.

If I go Harvard and get a degree, my purposes have been fulfilled once I get that degree. Do I keep going to Harvard for the rest of my life? Of course not.

If I meet the woman who "fulfills" my dreams of an ideal partner, do I go on seeking a wife? Of course not.

I believe Jesus is saying something like this: I have come to fulfill the Law in the sense of completing its mission; in contrast, I have not come to abolish it before its mission is complete.

Again, remember what Jesus says right afterwards:

Do not presume that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished!

Jesus clearly allows for the possibility that the Law will indeed end when "all is accomplished".

What are Jesus's final words on the Cross?

Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit. John 19:30