Did Christ at the cross end all the laws?

[Leaf473]

Here is the problem: even though the content of our "set of moral principles" might be the same if we look to the 10 commandments or if we listen to the "voice" of the indwelling Spirit, it would, I believe, be a monumental blunder to consult the Law when we have been clearly told that the Spirit has been given to us to essentially "replace" the Law:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Surely it is a problem if we take it upon ourselves to ignore what Paul is saying here.

I have argued earlier that Paul believes the Law is actually an amplifier for sin - it actually makes the Jew more sinful, not less. And not because it merely reveals sin - if we take Paul seriously, we have to acknowledge that he believes the Law actually energizes the sinful impulses living within us. To wit:

Romans 7:
But sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind;

1 Corinthians 15
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ

I realize this is an astonishing claim, but if we take Paul seriously, and stop distorting his wording, I think we are driven to this stark conclusion: God has used the Law, including the 10, to concentrate sin in the nation o of Israel so that sin can finally be focused down on a single individual - Jesus - and condemned on the cross.

If so, the Law has played its part - and a dark one at that - and can be set aside.

I agree with what you're saying, there.

In addition, we know that there is wisdom in studying all of God's word.

Since we are now considered sinless in God's eyes, we can boldly study the law and gain wisdom without fear that it's going to increase the sin in our lives.

I think there is a law that says to pay a hired man at the end of each working day. This fits well with Jesus saying to not worry about tomorrow. I don't think that every corporation has to switch to a daily pay schedule. But the idea of focusing on one day at a time is wise imo.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I do give God glory as the source of his word.

Psalm 119
Forever, O Lord, your Word is settled in heaven.

The law that I follow is the law written on my heart. Again, God gets all the glory, he's the one that wrote it on my heart!

That same law is the law God wrote with His own finger.

 

[Leaf473]

I don't think you understand the scriptures, I shared the scriptures with you. I would prayerfully ask the Holy Sirit to guide you in His Truth.

Leviticus 15 begins this way
The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘When any man has an unusual bodily discharge, such a discharge is unclean. 3 Whether it continues flowing from his body or is blocked, it will make him unclean.
Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 15 - New International Version

How does this fit with what you are saying? It seems that the blood of Jesus would make us clean, otherwise how could the Holy Spirit live inside of us?

 

[expos4ever]

This is what Paul means by being released from the law

Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

We are released from the penalty of the law (the wages of sin is death) because of the sacrifice of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins and sanctification.

Sounds reasonable, and it may well be true that we are released from the penalty of the Law (see end part of post), but it is simply not what Paul actually says in Romans 7:6:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Your position forces you to change the concept of "serving the Law" to "being judged by the Law".

That is a bridge too far - you are mangling Paul's wording.

But is the Jew really released from the penalty of the Law? Not according to Paul in this Romans 2 passage at least:

For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Leviticus 15 begins this way
The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘When any man has an unusual bodily discharge, such a discharge is unclean. 3 Whether it continues flowing from his body or is blocked, it will make him unclean.
Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 15 - New International Version

How does this fit with what you are saying? It seems that the blood of Jesus would make us clean, otherwise how could the Holy Spirit live inside of us?

Not what Jesus is talking about in Mark.

The blood of Jesus can make us clean if we repent and confess our sins. Sin is the transgression of the law 1 John 3:4 and what points out sin Romans 3:20 Romans 7:7 when we break one commandment we break them all James 2:10-12 and that's why we can go directly to Jesus in the New Covenant who became our Sacrifice for sins and High Priest. When we truly repent, that means we have a changed heart and no longer want to break that law (sin) Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit to keep the commandments John 14:15-18 and given when we obey Acts 5:32. Jesus can cleanse us from all sin when we confess our sins and repent and walk in Jesus in obedience.

 

[Leaf473]

You don't understand the passage. Jesus is referring to the tradition of washing hands and foods going into our mouths with unclean hands. He is condemning them because they think not washing their hands is what defiles a man, but Jesus is saying that is not want defiles a man, they are worshipping in vain by following traditions over the commandments of God. They may eat with clean hands, but what they are doing- not keeping the commandments of God and living ungodly is what is defiling them. Jesus is basically calling them hypocrites. Same principles apply today. Thats why when Jesus comes many will say Lord Lord and they think they are following Him, but only those who do the will of the Father will be in heaven Matthew 7:21-23.

I agree that the subject comes up because the scribes and the Pharisees ask Jesus about hand washing and eating.

But calling the crowds to himself, Jesus goes on to expound on a larger idea, that nothing going into your mouth will make you unclean.

Later on, he gives his disciples his reasoning:
Do you not perceive that whatever goes into the person from outside cannot defile him, because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, then into the toilet...

Jesus makes two blanket statements, using words like "nothing" and "everything". To me, that's talking about more than just hand-washing.

It's true that hand-washing brings up the teaching. But Jesus goes on to teach on a much larger subject.

Just like at a different time, a question about divorce becomes an opportunity for a much larger teaching about marriage.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I agree that the subject comes up because the scribes and the Pharisees ask Jesus about hand washing and eating.

But calling the crowds to himself, Jesus goes on to expound on a larger idea, that nothing going into your mouth will make you unclean.

Later on, he gives his disciples his reasoning:
Do you not perceive that whatever goes into the person from outside cannot defile him, because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, then into the toilet...

Jesus makes two blanket statements, using words like "nothing" and "everything". To me, that's talking about more than just hand-washing.

It's true that hand-washing brings up the teaching. But Jesus goes on to teach on a much larger subject.

Just like at a different time, a question about divorce becomes an opportunity for a much larger teaching about marriage.

You must read this in context, Jesus is talking about eating foods with washed hands is not what defiles a man but not keeping the commandments of God is worshipping in vain and doing things ungodly this is what defiles a man. This passage is not about food, its about man made traditions that people keep over the commandments of God, but yet still feel "righteous" because of man-made traditions that they place the same as God's Commandments. Jesus called them hypocrites! Mark 7:6-8 You're free to interpret this passage anyway you want, but there is only one Truth to God's Word and I believe with the Spirit we can understand all things.

 

[Leaf473]

God bless Leaf!

We been through this already, going in circles is not going to help anyone.

Have a great day!

Oops! I meant to write Matthew 8. I'll go back and fix it.

I certainly don't see it as going in circles.

Jesus told someone to do something that we don't do today. The conclusion is that we don't do everything Jesus said to every person.

May the Lord bless you and keep you!

 

[Leaf473]

That same law is the law God wrote with His own finger.

Oh no, God wrote Hebrew characters on the stone.

He didn't write any Hebrew characters on my heart. But he did write the meanings and principles of those characters, yes. And so much more!

###########

By the way, it would be really cool if God did write Hebrew on my heart. Especially if he included the Divine name with its power pointing. Then I would know how to pronounce it. But it's probably not something for us to know at this time.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Sounds reasonable, and it may well be true that we are released from the penalty of the Law (see end part of post), but it is simply not what Paul actually says in Romans 7:6:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Your position forces you to change the concept of "serving the Law" to "being judged by the Law".

That is a bridge too far - you are mangling Paul's wording.

But is the Jew really released from the penalty of the Law? Not according to Paul in this Romans 2 passage at least:

For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

If we service in newness of the Spirit we will not be breaking the law. The Spirit is given to keep the commandments John 14:15-18 and to those who obey Acts 5:32

Who has sinned? Romans 3: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Sin is the transgression of the law 1 John 3:4 and points out sin Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7

The penalty for sin is death. Romans 6:23 but through Jesus we can have eternal life IF we confess our sins 1 John 1:9. When we repent, it means you want to turn away from sin and walk in obedience to Christ.

Paul clearly tells us we have two choices:

Romans 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Through Jesus He can be cleanse us of our sins and He will remember our sins no more, when we have a changed heart and walk in obedience through love and faith. Revelation 14:12, John 14:15, 1 John 5:3, Exodus 20:6

The whole bible has to reconcile- it's a dangerous way to read scriptures in my opinion to laser focus on one or two scriptures and disregard the whole meaning of the entire Bible. Jesus is coming for those who do the will of the Father in heaven. Matthew 7:23 Jesus says depart from me those who practice lawlessness. There remains no more sacrifice for those who willingly sin.

Hebrews 10: 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

We have time to change our path today, if we don't harden our heart! We have a just Savior who is willing to forgive us of our sins and wipe our slate clean. He asks so little in return. If you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments, and His commandments are not burdensome 1 John 5:3

 

[Leaf473]

Not what Jesus is talking about in Mark.

The blood of Jesus can make us clean if we repent and confess our sins. Sin is the transgression of the law 1 John 3:4 and what points out sin Romans 3:20 Romans 7:7 when we break one commandment we break them all James 2:10-12 and that's why we can go directly to Jesus in the New Covenant who became our Sacrifice for sins and High Priest. When we truly repent, that means we have a changed heart and no longer want to break that law (sin) Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit to keep the commandments John 14:15-18 and given when we obey Acts 5:32. Jesus can cleanse us from all sin when we confess our sins and repent and walk in Jesus in obedience.

I understand it's not what Jesus is talking about in Mark. We've got two different subthreads going, one is about Mark, and the other is about Health laws in general, and that's where I brought up Leviticus 15.

So regarding the health laws in Leviticus 15, how does the Holy Spirit live inside of us if we are unclean from a discharge?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Oh no, God wrote Hebrew characters on the stone.

He didn't write any Hebrew characters on my heart. But he did write the the meanings and principles of those characters, yes. And so much more!

###########

By the way, it would be really cool if God did write Hebrew on my heart. Especially if he included the Divine name with its power pointing. Then I would know how to pronounce it. But it's probably not something for us to know at this time.

Sad, but your free will to believe. The people in Mark 7 and Matthew 15 believed this too, Jesus seems to state otherwise.

 

[Leaf473]

You must read this in context, Jesus is talking about eating foods with washed hands is not what defiles a man but not keeping the commandments of God is worshipping in vain and doing things ungodly this is what defiles a man. This passage is not about food, its about man made traditions that people keep over the commandments of God, but yet still feel "righteous" because of man-made traditions that they place the same as God's Commandments. Jesus called them hypocrites! Mark 7:6-8 You're free to interpret this passage anyway you want, but there is only one Truth to God's Word and I believe with the Spirit we can understand all things.

The passage in Mark 7 contains three separate scenes, only the first has to do with hand washing.

The following two use words like "everything" and "nothing". To me, the meaning is obvious.

I think that's taking the context into account, understanding that there are three different scenes.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The passage in Mark 7 contains three separate scenes, only the first has to do with hand washing.

The following two use words like "everything" and "nothing". To me, the meaning is obvious.

I think that's taking the context into account, understanding that there are three different scenes.

It's all connected.

 

[Leaf473]

If we service in newness of the Spirit we will not be breaking the law.

This is something I don't understand in what you say, so maybe you can clarify, please.

If I understand what you're saying, it's that when we serve in the newness of the Spirit, that means we are also serving in the letter.

So it's Spirit plus letter.

But Paul says it's Spirit not letter.

How do these things fit together?

 

[Leaf473]

Sad, but your free will to believe. The people in Mark 7 and Matthew 15 believed this too, Jesus seems to state otherwise.

The people in Mark 7 and Matthew 15 thought that God wrote Hebrew characters on my heart?

Possibly you're replying to the wrong post.

But assuming you're applying to the right post, no, I know what's written on my heart. That's the whole idea of writing something on someone's heart, they know it instinctively.

I can tell you with full assurance that I see no Hebrew characters on my heart.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

This is something I don't understand in what you say, so maybe you can clarify, please.

If I understand what you're saying, it's that when we serve in the newness of the Spirit, that means we are also serving in the letter.

So it's Spirit plus letter.

But Paul says it's Spirit not letter.

How do these things fit together?

We are released from the penalty of the law (the wages of sin is death) because of the sacrifice of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins and sanctification. We all have to stand before Jesus on judgement day based on our actions 2 Corinthians 5:10 and will all be judged on the Ten Commandments James 2:10-12. If we stand before Jesus 100% keeping the law (walking in the Spirit- the new way) we won't be guilty before God. This is what Paul is saying. We are given the Spirit to obey the commandments John 14:15-18 and is given when we obey Acts 5:32. In the New Covenant Jesus is our High Priest and we can go directly to Him when we repent and for the forgiveness of sins. The point of scripture even in the Old Testament is to have a changed heart. Thats why the law is written in the heart. We don't obey because its a commandment, we obey because its a fruit of a saved person. When you turn thoughts of hate and anger to thoughts of love and compassion, you won't be murdering your neighbor. This is what Paul is talking about being released from the law, if walking in the Spirit. You are not obeying by the letter, you are obeying by the Spirit and in doing so the letter is kept and you're doing it because you have a changed heart.

When we have a changed heart, we will want to be baptized into Christ which symbolic to forget our life of sin and walk in obedience in Spirit. Acts 2:38

 

[Leaf473]

It's all connected.

It's all connected by the same theme, clean and defiled.

But this is a common thing we see in the gospels: Jesus is asked a question and he uses the opportunity to expound on a fuller teaching.

On another occasion he is asked by his disciples why they couldn't cast out a demon. He uses the opportunity to go into more detail about demon possession.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The people in Mark 7 and Matthew 15 thought that God wrote Hebrew characters on my heart?

Possibly you're replying to the wrong post.

But assuming you're applying to the right post, no, I know what's written on my heart. That's the whole idea of writing something on someone's heart, they know it instinctively.

I can tell you with full assurance that I see no Hebrew characters on my heart.

It's not characters, its the law personally written by God. It's only characters if it doesn't mean something. The law was written in stone by the finger of God, that God now writes in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant. Hebrews 8:10 We obey the law out of love 1 John 5:3, John 14:15, John 15:10, Exodus 20:6 and it is activated when we become doers (written in our minds) Romans 2:13, James 1:22, Revelation 22:14

 

[Leaf473]

We are released from the penalty of the law (the wages of sin is death) because of the sacrifice of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins and sanctification. We all have to stand before Jesus on judgement day based on our actions 2 Corinthians 5:10 and will all be judged on the Ten Commandments James 2:10-12. If we stand before Jesus 100% keeping the law (walking in the Spirit- the new way) we won't be guilty before God. This is what Paul is saying. We are given the Spirit to obey the commandments John 14:15-18 and is given when we obey Acts 5:32. In the New Covenant Jesus is our High Priest and we can go directly to Him when we repent and for the forgiveness of sins. The point of scripture even in the Old Testament is to have a changed heart. Thats why the law is written in the heart. We don't obey because its a commandment, we obey because its a fruit of a saved person. When you turn thoughts of hate and anger to thoughts of love and compassion, you won't be murdering your neighbor. This is what Paul is talking about being released from the law, if walking in the Spirit. You are not obeying by the letter, you are obeying by the Spirit and in doing so the letter is kept and you're doing it because you have a changed heart.

When we have a changed heart, we will want to be baptized into Christ which symbolic to forget our life of sin and walk in obedience in Spirit. Acts 2:38

So then we do serve in Spirit plus letter? Is that what you're saying?