Did Christ at the cross end all the laws?

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expos4ever

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How can the law be abolished at the cross? When the Jews did not accept that Jesus was the Messiah and continued animal sacrifice until 70AD when Rome ended the practice for them?
We are not discussing whether or not people continued to follow the Law but rather whether God had "abolished" the Law. What people actually did vis a vis the Law, therefore, is not the point, but rather whether God "wanted" people to stop following the Law.
 
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expos4ever

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I have done no such thing, just sharing scriptures.
No. You strongly implied that those of us who believe the Law is "retired" do not want to follow God's Law.

That is a profound misrepresentation.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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Please quote me saying the commandments are only Ten, but they certainly include the Ten.

Well you certainly talk about then as if they are "primary". You said, "...circumcision is not in the Ten Commandments, so not a primary law..." When actually circumcision actually is primary starting with Abram (Gen. 17:10).

I bring this up only because it initiates the Jewish people and their eventual Mosaic covenant. It, circumcision, has priority. And yet the early church decided that gentiles do not need this initiation, they do not need to become Jews. And while it is beneficial and strongly advised to live by Jewish morality, there are limits on the expectations for non-Jews since the laws and commandments, even the ten are not theirs. That does not mean they are free to murder. It only means that the context of their coincidently keeping them is different and not part of Mosaic covenant of which they were never party.
 
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expos4ever

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The Spirit is not at odds with God’s law.
Paul clearly believes otherwise:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

The Spirit is given to help convict those who have not harden their hearts to the Truth and continue in sin -breaking the law 1 John 3:4, Romans 3:20 Romans 7:7
For the third time:

1 John 3:4: this text does not mention the Law of Moses! Yes, sin is lawlessness, but this does not mean that a particular law - the Law of Moses including the 10 - remains in effect.

Romans 3:20: Context is key. You are conveniently silent on the fact that, in context, Paul is describing what was the case - that the Law did, in the past, let the Jew know what sin was. How do we know that this is now in the past? The very next verse! But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been revealed, ....

Romans 7:7: You do not account for context. Once more, you remain conveniently tight-lipped on the fact that Paul has just told us that we no longer serve the Law. In context, and this can be argued at length, Paul believes the time of the Law has come to an end, but he can still praise it for the role it played in an evolving plan.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Well you certainly talk about then as if they are "primary". You said, "...circumcision is not in the Ten Commandments, so not a primary law..." When actually circumcision actually is primary starting with Abram (Gen. 17:10).

I bring this up only because it initiates the Jewish people and their eventual Mosaic covenant. It, circumcision, has priority. And yet the early church decided that gentiles do not need this initiation, they do not need to become Jews. And while it is beneficial and strongly advised to live by Jewish morality, there are limits on the expectations for non-Jews since the laws and commandments, even the ten are not theirs. That does not mean they are free to murder. It only means that the context of their coincidently keeping them is different and not part of Mosaic covenant of which they were never party.
I do think it’s the primary law and stands on a whole other foundation. There are other laws, but I believe if one is keeping the Ten Commandments in Spirit (which also means the letter is being kept) they will be keeping the other laws as well, like the heath laws, or the greatest commandments which is summarized when you keep the Ten. God made a distinction with the Ten Commandments, He didn’t trust man to write His perfect law, He did so with His own finger and is in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy where God dwells and revealed in Heaven Revelation 11:19. God made a distinction with the Ten Commandments and He revealed right in the Ten He shows mercy to thousands who love Him and keep His commandments. Exodus 20:6, which Jesus repeats almost verbatim John 14:15 and John 1 John 5:3

If you want to keep circumcision, that is not against the law, Paul says circumcision or uncircumcision that doesn’t matter, but what does matter is keeping the commandments of God. 1 Cor 7:19
 
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SabbathBlessings

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No. You strongly implied that those of us who believe the Law is "retired" do not want to follow God's Law.

That is a profound misrepresentation.

If the law was “retired” why does the devil care if God’s saints keep the commandments of God?

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

You might want to note scripture shows there is only a remnant left who keep the commandments of God. I know its not the popular choice, but its the one God wants us to make.

Scripture tells us the fruit of a saved person:

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

And right before the Second Coming of Jesus we are told Blessed are those who DO His commandments and they will have the right to the tree of life. Revelation 22:14

I know you want to hang your hat on this one verse from Paul, which I have explained previously, if one is walking in the Spirit, they are obeying the commandments. You can’t walk in the Spirit and sin. When it says we are released from the law, it means the condemnation (death- the wages of sin is death) but if we confess our sins to Jesus, He is faithful and just and will forgive us of our sins. True repentance means you have a changed heart and want to obey.

The Spirit is given and is conditional “If” you love Jesus and keep His commandments.

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Which is quoted right in the Ten Commandments:
Showing mercy to thousands, who love Me and keep My commandments Exodus 20:6

And the Spirit is given to those who obey:

Acts 5:32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

God’s law is God’s will Psalms 40:9 I delight to do Your will, O my God,
And Your law is within my heart.”


And we have this promise from Jesus for those who do the will of God:

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Your argument that we do not have to obey the law that it’s “retired” is not biblical. Lawlessness is not coming from God,1 John 3:8 so you seem to have a great misunderstanding of Paul writings, which many do even in his time leading people to their own destruction 2 Peter 3:16.

We are told the Second Coming will be much like the days of Noah. Right now we are at the time of decision. Just like Noah who preached for 120 to get on the boat, most people didn’t believe and when probation closed and the door shut, it was too late and judgement came. We are at the time of decision and what we choose to do now can change the path of our eternal life forever. Right now there is time to repent and turn from our sins, but Jesus is coming soon and at that time probation will be closed, decisions will be made Revelation 22:10-11. If we willfully sin- sin is the transgression of the law 1 John 3:4 there remains no more sacrifice for sins. Hebrews 10:26-30. We are saved by grace through our faith, the fruit of someone who has faith loves and obeys God. Revelation 14:12


I hope some can prayerfully read the scriptures here, because our time on this earth is drawing near and we need to put on the amour of God and worship Him in both Truth and Spirit. John 4:23-24. I will address your other post in detail later. It’s late my time. God bless!
 
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Leaf473

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First you thought it was the greatest commandments and now this verse. Seems like you’re not completely sure, but somehow you seem convinced the commandments that matters are not the Ten Commandments. It’s not the commandments God wrote with His own finger, the commandments that reveal sin Romans 7:7 that we will be judged on James 2:10-12, not the commandments that Jesus says if you keep the least of the these, you will be least in heaven- quoting directly from the Ten Matthew 5:17-30, not the commandments Jesus quoted from when asked how do I gain eternal life Matthew 19:17-19. Very interesting, I sure don’t see it that, so we will have to agree to disagree.

Looks like we are back where we started. Take care.
Am I certain that I understand everything in the Scriptures? No.

Am I certain that I am not under the law the way Galatians uses the phrase? The law ended at the cross, so my answer is Yes.

Am I certain that the ten commandments are part of the law of Moses? Luke refers to the first five books of the Bible as the law of Moses, so yes, that's definitely something a person can say.

If you have a different view of what commandments Paul is referring to in 1 Corinthians 7, please say exactly what those commandments are, not just broad categories.
 
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Leaf473

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Okay Leaf, if thats what you believe. Take care.
Thanks! I believe it because I think it's the obvious conclusion from the passage. Do you believe we are to take the offering that Moses commanded when our skin condition clears up?

Is it a sin to be a leper? If not, maybe the offering for a cleansed leper is not a sin offering? In that case it still continues? Is that what you're saying?
 
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Leaf473

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How can the law be abolished at the cross? When the Jews did not accept that Jesus was the Messiah and continued animal sacrifice until 70AD when Rome ended the practice for them?

You realize that with the building of the third temple comes the practice of animal sacrifice once again? After all, to bless the ground for the Temple requires an unblemished Red Heifer that is sacrificed, burned and the ashes scattered over the temple mount.

The law may have ended according to Christian belief ....but still exists in Jewish belief.
Good points! I think that Galatians says that if a man is circumcised, he is then required to keep the entire law.

So yes, it's not that the law ceases to exist at the cross. But imo a general theme of the post-cross New Testament writings is that we as Christians are not under the law.
 
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Leaf473

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I have done no such thing, just sharing scriptures. If taken that way definitely not my intention. :)
We are all sharing scriptures. It's in the interpretations of the scriptures where we see things differently.

I think it would be great if you will take a few minutes and start posting some scripture references for the remaining laws.

Then imo it will probably become clear whether everything in the law of Moses ended at the cross or not.
 
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Leaf473

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For us in the Body of Christ, we were never under the Law at anytime.

For those Jews of the nation Israel, the destruction of the temple at AD 70 was a sign that their gospel of the circumcision was no longer valid. The only gospel that could save them was the gospel of the uncircumcision (Galatians 2:7-9)
And what you call the true Israel? For them, did all laws end either at the cross or at the destruction of the Temple?
 
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Leaf473

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Well you certainly talk about then as if they are "primary". You said, "...circumcision is not in the Ten Commandments, so not a primary law..." When actually circumcision actually is primary starting with Abram (Gen. 17:10).

I bring this up only because it initiates the Jewish people and their eventual Mosaic covenant. It, circumcision, has priority. And yet the early church decided that gentiles do not need this initiation, they do not need to become Jews. And while it is beneficial and strongly advised to live by Jewish morality, there are limits on the expectations for non-Jews since the laws and commandments, even the ten are not theirs. That does not mean they are free to murder. It only means that the context of their coincidently keeping them is different and not part of Mosaic covenant of which they were never party.
Yes, non-Jews coincidentally keep many of the laws. That's a great way to put it.

Just like I coincidentally keep many of the laws of Canada, even though I don't live in Canada.
 
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Leaf473

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I do think it’s the primary law and stands on a whole other foundation. There are other laws, but I believe if one is keeping the Ten Commandments in Spirit (which also means the letter is being kept) they will be keeping the other laws as well, like the heath laws, or the greatest commandments which is summarized when you keep the Ten. God made a distinction with the Ten Commandments, He didn’t trust man to write His perfect law, He did so with His own finger and is in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy where God dwells and revealed in Heaven Revelation 11:19. God made a distinction with the Ten Commandments and He revealed right in the Ten He shows mercy to thousands who love Him and keep His commandments. Exodus 20:6, which Jesus repeats almost verbatim John 14:15 and John 1 John 5:3

If you want to keep circumcision, that is not against the law, Paul says circumcision or uncircumcision that doesn’t matter, but what does matter is keeping the commandments of God. 1 Cor 7:19
How do the ten commandments lead a person to keep the health laws as well? This is an interesting idea, please expound.
 
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expos4ever

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...and the Spirit is given to those who want to keep the commandments John14:15-18 and given to those who obey. Acts 5:32.
John 14:15-18 does not help your case - Jesus says if that we love Him, we will keep His commandments. This is not the same as saying that if we love Him, we will follow the Law of Moses (which includes the 10). In fact, we know that Jesus rejects at least some elements of the Law of Moses. For example, He refuses the commandment to stone those caught in adultery.

Nor does the Acts text help either - all it says is that the Spirit is given to those that obey Jesus. Again, this is not the same thing as saying that the Spirit is given to those who obey the Law of Moses.

Your whole argument assumes something that is demonstrably not the case, namely that God's plan of redemption is not an evolving narrative with different phases.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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Practically speaking, we may be arguing about nothing of consequence since non Jews, do coincidently, keep the Jewish 10 commandments though we might interpret them in a more relevant way for our time and place in salvation history. And are we not pretty much just talking about the 10? Though the dietary laws were just mentioned they do not seem to be as controversial. Or are they?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Yes, non-Jews coincidentally keep many of the laws. That's a great way to put it.

Just like I coincidentally keep many of the laws of Canada, even though I don't live in Canada.
Well you certainly talk about then as if they are "primary". You said, "...circumcision is not in the Ten Commandments, so not a primary law..." When actually circumcision actually is primary starting with Abram (Gen. 17:10).
That does not mean they are free to murder. It only means that the context of their coincidently keeping them is different and not part of Mosaic covenant of which they were never party.

Scripture tells us something different:

Isaiah 44:24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
And He who formed you from the womb:
“I am the Lord, who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;

So it's not a "coincidence" that murder is still a sin in the New Testament because God, the Creator of all things, including the Ten Commandments written by His own finger writes His law in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10. So to not recognize the Authority of God and the Creator of all things including His law- I wonder how God's feels when people remove His authority and just say it's a coincidence. Maybe something to pray about. God bless.
 
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expos4ever

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Also when you see in scripture we should not murder , commit adultery or worship other gods etc all things you agree we should not do, this came from the commandments of God.
I understand where you are coming from but I believe you are not accounting for the fact that it is entirely coherent for God to retire the 10 commandments just at the time that He gifts us with a Spirit that enables us to understand that murder and adultery are wrong without needing to consult an external written code.

And this is precisely what Paul declares to be the case here:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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How do the ten commandments lead a person to keep the health laws as well? This is an interesting idea, please expound.

Our bodies are a temple and dwelling place for the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 6:19 the Spirit is given to keep the commandments. John 14:15-18 and to those who obey Acts 5:32. If one is truly led by the Spirit you won't be deifying our bodies with foods God deemed unclean and bad for us. Defiling our bodies is more than just foods, its also a life style and Jesus made clear in Mark 7:9-10 by defiling the commandments of God and Jesus quoted directly from the Ten. When you walk in the Spirit you are going to want to obey God in all that His has commanded. God bless.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Thanks! I believe it because I think it's the obvious conclusion from the passage. Do you believe we are to take the offering that Moses commanded when our skin condition clears up?

Is it a sin to be a leper? If not, maybe the offering for a cleansed leper is not a sin offering? In that case it still continues? Is that what you're saying?
Well, yesterday you had two different interpretations, so that would lead one to the conclusion you might not be too sure. I am 100% sure when Paul says what matters is keeping the commandments of God, it most certainly includes the Ten Commandments. The commandments of God came in the Old Testament but God wrote those in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10 so the law of God did not end up in the New Covenant for the standard of Christian living randomly. You are free to believe that though as we are all given free will. I believe our time on this earth is short and we have time to make our decisions today and if we hear voice today, don't harden our hearts. We are called to worship Him in Truth and Spirit John 4:24-25 and Jesus in His own words tells us we worship in vain when we place mans traditions over the commandments of God quoting directly from the Ten. Mark 7:6-13, Matthew 15:3-9. God bless
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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So to not recognize the Authority of God and the Creator of all things including His law- I wonder how God's feels when people remove His authority and just say it's a coincidence.

You again misrepresent in a very condescending way.

Non Jewish Christians do indeed recognize the authority of God especially as expressed through the personification of the New Covenant, Jesus the Christ.

John 10:27-30
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
 
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