Did Christ at the cross end all the laws?

[SabbathBlessings]

It predates them.

That’s debatable and immaterial. Paul tells us what matters is not circumcision, but keeping God’s commandments. 1 Cor 7:19

Your argument appears to be with Paul.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Please stop with this.

Everyone knows this a strawman argument. You have to know that no one here is advocating a position that requires them to commit to the notion that it is ok to murder, take the Lord's name in vain, etc.

Please stop misrepresenting others.

This is the law, I don’t recommend removing God, the author of His law and renaming it into mans choice on what they feel like keeping. God is the author of His law, written by His own finger, which is how sin is defined. 1 John 3:4 Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7, and breaking one commandment is like breaking them all. James 2:10-12 quoting directly from the Ten. Exodus 20, Exodus 34:28 now written in the heart Hebrews 8:10. So when you make statements that all the law ended, but then quote laws from the Ten Commandments that they should be kept, you seem to be contradicting yourself or implying God is not in charge of His law, that man is and contradicts the Authority of our Creator and Savior.

 

[Guojing]

Now... Do you wish to answer the question posed here?

By the time the temple was destroyed, even the Jews could see they could not keep the Law of Moses completely.

So by then, the only gospel available for them was the gospel preached by Paul. If you don't want to believe in that and joined the Body of Christ, they will remained as unbelievers.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

That’s debatable and immaterial. Paul tells us what matters is not circumcision, but keeping God’s commandments. 1 Cor 7:19

Your argument appears to be with Paul.

Not an argument. A question. Since circumcision is the primary commandment, the premier commandment of covenant creating the identity of the Jewish people, the initiation, why would the early church exempt gentiles Christian from it while holding them to subsequent Jewish commandments?

I don't think Paul in 1 Corinthians was speaking of all commandments since we have already seen his views on the law, especially for gentiles. Is Paul talking about all commandments? If not, just the ten? In your view?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Not an argument. A question. Since circumcision is the primary commandment, the premier commandment of covenant creating the identity of the Jewish people, the initiation, why would the early church exempt gentiles Christian from it while holding them to subsequent Jewish commandments?

I don't think Paul in 1 Corinthians was speaking of all commandments since we have already seen his views on the law, especially for gentiles. Is Paul talking about all commandments? If not, just the ten? In your view?

Again, circumcision is not in the Ten Commandments, so not a primary law, which Paul confirms. The Ten Commandments came in a unit of Ten Exodus 34:28 so its not multiple choice and when Paul says what matters is keeping the commandments of God, it most certainly means the commandments written by the finger of God and how all man will be judged. James 2:10-12.

I find it very strange people think God’s commandments are anything but the commandments God wrote with His own finger, spoke with His own voice, the only commandments kept in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God’s Temple where He dwells and is revealed in heaven. Revelation 11:19.

Scripture tells us the fruit of a saved person:

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

It doesn’t sound like God’s law ended. We are free to take that risk, but to me God’s law is perfect Psalms 19:7, just like our Creator. We should always keep God’s law out of love and when you love God, obedience to Him is natural.

Looks like we will have to agree to disagree. God bless.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Again, circumcision is not in the Ten Commandments, so not a primary law, which Paul confirms. The Ten Commandments came in a unit of Ten Exodus 34:28 so its not multiple choice and when Paul says what matters is keeping the commandments of God, it most certainly means the commandments written by the finger of God and how all man will be judged. James 2:10-12.

I find it very strange people think God’s commandments are anything but the commandments God wrote with His own finger, spoke with His own voice, the only commandments kept in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God’s Temple where He dwells and is revealed in heaven. Revelation 11:19.

Scripture tells us the fruit of a saved person:

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

It doesn’t sound like God’s law ended. We are free to take that risk, but to me God’s law is perfect Psalms 19:7, just like our Creator. We should always keep God’s law out of love and when you love God, obedience to Him is natural.

Looks like we will have to agree to disagree. God bless.

I find it strange that you seem to think "Commandments" are only 10.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I find it strange that you seem to think "Commandments" are only 10.

Please quote me saying the commandments are only Ten, but they certainly include the Ten.

 

[Leaf473]

I am quite sure the 10 Commandments are part of the Law of Moses.

Again, Paul never mentions any "categories" within the Law.

Different New Testament writers might use the "law of Moses" differently, though I agree that they probably all include the ten commandments.

Here, Jesus uses the phrase to mean the first five books of the Bible.
From the Luke account of that first Easter,
“These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

 

[Leaf473]

Who said anything about not following Jesus. To be honest, I’m not sure the point you are trying to make other than seemingly trying to discredit the Ten Commandments. Understanding scripture is easier when you believe in absolutes. The Ten Commandments is an absolute, the only law God wrote with His own finger and spoke with His own voice. The only law placed in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God’s Temple where He dwells and is also revealed in heaven. Revelation 11:19, now written in the heart and mind. Hebrews 8:10, Jeremiah 31:33 While I know this doesn’t seem significant to some, it does to me, because this is God’s will for us that He personally wrote. This is an absolute. Not nine commandments, not eight, but Ten Exodus 34:28. So I take a different approach to scripture and when there is an absolute I don’t try to endlessly find ways to discredit that, by a one-off in scripture taken out of context. All scripture has to reconcile, there are no contradictions, just misunderstandings. If one does not understand the significance of God’s law, I think understanding scripture will be difficult because it is a theme that runs throughout the entire bible. At any rate, you will probably disagree with this post and thats okay. God bless and take care.

This is the point I'm trying to make:

Jesus told the ex-leper to take the offering that Moses commanded.

I don't do that, so I'm not following Jesus' instruction in that case.

If you don't do it, you aren't following Jesus' instruction in that case.

 

[Leaf473]

By the time the temple was destroyed, even the Jews could see they could not keep the Law of Moses completely.

So by then, the only gospel available for them was the gospel preached by Paul. If you don't want to believe in that and joined the Body of Christ, they will remained as unbelievers.

Is that a Yes? You believe that
for Believers, all laws ended either at the cross or at the destruction of the Temple?

 

[Leaf473]

Not an argument. A question. Since circumcision is the primary commandment, the premier commandment of covenant creating the identity of the Jewish people, the initiation, why would the early church exempt gentiles Christian from it while holding them to subsequent Jewish commandments?

I don't think Paul in 1 Corinthians was speaking of all commandments since we have already seen his views on the law, especially for gentiles. Is Paul talking about all commandments? If not, just the ten? In your view?

True that circumcision is seen as the initiation commandment.

The question decided at that first ecumenical council:
"But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and tell them to keep the law of Moses.”

I see that these are believers and also "ten commandment keepers", yet they do not understand how the law works for Christians.

Which laws Paul is talking about as commandments that matter is the big question. To me the answer is obvious, he says that when you love your neighbor as yourself you fulfill the entire law.

 

[Leaf473]

I find it very strange people think God’s commandments are anything but the commandments God wrote with His own finger, spoke with His own voice, the only commandments kept in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God’s Temple where He dwells and is revealed in heaven. Revelation 11:19.

I thought you had said that there were other commandments than just the 10, commandments that didn't end at the cross. Yes? No?

 

[Leaf473]

Please quote me saying the commandments are only Ten, but they certainly include the Ten.

I find it very strange people think God’s commandments are anything but the commandments God wrote with His own finger...

You are saying it is something in addition to, so I think it is inaccurate to say "anything but".

 

[SabbathBlessings]

This is the point I'm trying to make:

Jesus told the ex-leper to take the offering that Moses commanded.

I don't do that, so I'm not following Jesus' instruction in that case.

If you don't do it, you aren't following Jesus' instruction in that case.

Just so I’m following you, because you do not obey this command Jesus made to the leper, is why you don’t need to obey the Ten Commandments. Please clarify. Thanks

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You are saying it is something in addition to, so I think it is inaccurate to say "anything but".

Not really friend, perhaps you can read it again. Anything but means all commandments but from the Ten which seems to be the consensus from those who do not want to obey God’s law , including the Ten means the Ten are included, but are others.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I thought you had said that there were other commandments than just the 10, commandments that didn't end at the cross. Yes? No?

Of course, but God only kept the Ten Commandments inside the ark of the Covenant in the Most Holy where He dwells and is revealed in Heaven. Revelation 11:19 Only the Ten were written by the finger of God, not by man. I pray that one day you and others can see the significance of this.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Which laws Paul is talking about as commandments that matter is the big question. To me the answer is obvious, he says that when you love your neighbor as yourself you fulfill the entire law.

So in your view, when Paul says what matters is keeping the commandments of God, that only means the two commandments from the law of Moses to love thy neighbor and love God, but not the commandments that God wrote with His own finger. Seems like the opposite of what Paul said. Paul said the commandments of God- so in your view those don’t include the law God wrote with His own finger, spoke with His own voice and that was kept in the ark of the covenant, in the Most Holy of God’s Temple where He dwells and is revealed in Heaven. Revelation 11:19. Interesting interpretation. I wonder how Jesus feels about this, when He died for the forgiveness of our sins and sanctification and came to do the will of His Father- to magnify His laws- which means make greater, not lesser.

 

[Leaf473]

Just so I’m following you, because you do not obey this command Jesus made to the leper, is why you don’t need to obey the Ten Commandments. Please clarify. Thanks

No, I'm not saying that.

I'm saying that today, we do not follow all of the instructions that Jesus gave to people before the cross.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

No, I'm not saying that.

I'm saying that today, we do not follow all of the instructions that Jesus gave to people before the cross.

Guess I’m not following you, how this verse would mean you don’t have to obey Jesus. Perhaps prayerfully reading Hebrews 10 and how it relates to Colossians 2:14 might help. I would give you the answer, but you don’t seem to agree with any of my posts, so I’ll just point you in the direction. God bless.

 

[Leaf473]

Not really friend, perhaps you can read it again. Anything but means all commandments but from the Ten which seems to be the consensus from those who do not want to obey God’s law , including the Ten means the Ten are included, but are others.

If you "find it very strange people think God’s commandments are anything but the commandments God wrote with His own finger...", that would imply that you do not think that.

So you do not think that God's commandments are anything but the ten commandments.
That would imply that you believe that God's commandments are only the 10.

Anyways, it's in those other laws that the difficulties with law keeping theology are most easily seen.

Like it says in Deuteronomy,
"These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the way, when you lie down and when you get up. Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads."