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Did Christ at the cross end all the laws?

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Leaf473

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There has always been one plan of redemption (Gospel). However, there have been multiple covenants ranging from the Edenic to the New Covenant which we are under today. Covenants are essentially contracts with which God deals with men and nations by specified terms. These change... the ultimate plan was always the same though. lol
Another example is what God says in Genesis 9:
“This is the sign of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all generations:
I set my rainbow in the cloud, and it will be a sign of a covenant between me and the earth."

That Covenant, which I believe is still in effect today, is between God and all humans, possibly all animals.

But that Covenant is neither the Old Covenant nor the New Covenant.
 
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Leaf473

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So you need that explicit statement to be made in Acts 21:18-25 before you will believe that.

No. However, you had previously written:
You don't think Acts 21:18-25 is clear enough in stating that, for True Israel, no law ended at the cross?
I'm saying that the statement is not found in the passage. But yes, you could see that implication.

Now... Do you wish to answer the question posed here?
So as it relates to the thread topic, is it fair to say that you believe that
for Believers, all laws ended either at the cross or at the destruction of the Temple?
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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What would be the point of freeing gentiles from circumcision, the initiation to the law, if they were going to be required to keep other commandments articulated in the law?
 
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Leaf473

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To believe in Christ means to do the things Christ says. James 1:22 It’s not passive. One scripture doesn’t delete the other, they work together. :)
Well... Not everything Jesus said applies to us today, does it?

Jesus told the ex-leper to show himself to the priest and take the offering that Moses commanded.

I don't know of anyone today who thinks we should follow that teaching of Jesus, except maybe some Messianics, and even they can't put it into practice.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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What would be the point of freeing gentiles from circumcision, the initiation to the law, if they were going to be required to keep other commandments articulated in the law?
These are two different laws. Circumcision is not part of the Ten Commandments, as Paul points out what matters…

1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Well... Not everything Jesus said applies to us today, does it?

Jesus told the ex-leper to show himself to the priest and take the offering that Moses commanded.

I don't know of anyone today who thinks we should follow that teaching of Jesus, except maybe some Messianics, and even they can't put it into practice.
The power was obeying Jesus in the story of the leper. Many people miss this crucial piece. And this scripture doesn’t delete John 14:15, Matthew 19:17-19, Matthew 5:17-30, Matthew 7:21-23 etc. etc. etc.

All scripture applies if you believe the promises of the Bible. 2 Timothy 3:16
 
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Leaf473

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To believe in Christ means to do the things Christ says. James 1:22 It’s not passive. One scripture doesn’t delete the other, they work together. :)
I thought you were done talking to me on this subject?
It's probably time for me to end this with we will have to agree to disagree and hopefully the scriptures shared will be helpful at some point or to some. God bless and take care.

If you want to talk some more, would you like me to go back and answer more parts of post #532?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I thought you were done talking to me on this subject?


If you want to talk some more, would you like me to go back and answer more parts of post #532?
There are many people who read these posts, so not necessarily talking to you, but for those who are interested in hearing the scriptures.

That said, I do need to go.

Have a blessed day all!!!
 
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Leaf473

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Beautiful story from John 4
39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.

Too bad we are not told what Jesus expected of them....of course, other than to love.
Yes, the story often brings tears to my eyes.

When I re-read it before making that post, I noticed that it doesn't actually say that the woman believed.

But she does say things that lead other people to believe, so she probably did!
 
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Leaf473

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What would be the point of freeing gentiles from circumcision, the initiation to the law, if they were going to be required to keep other commandments articulated in the law?
True! And if a believer is circumcised, he is then cut off from Christ. (Cut off, probably a word play on circumcision.)

He is also then required to keep the entire law of Moses, because he has essentially said that he believes that it is in effect today.
 
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Leaf473

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The power was obeying Jesus in the story of the leper. Many people miss this crucial piece. And this scripture doesn’t delete John 14:15, Matthew 19:17-19, Matthew 5:17-30, Matthew 7:21-23 etc. etc. etc.

All scripture applies if you believe the promises of the Bible. 2 Timothy 3:16
Are you saying that we should obey Jesus
(I agree with that)
but not follow the particular command that he gives?
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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These are two different laws. Circumcision is not part of the Ten Commandments, as Paul points out what matters…

1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

Not part of the 10 but certainly a commandment that goes back even further than Moses.

Genesis 17:10–14, 'And God spoke to Abraham saying: … This is my covenant which you shall keep between me and you and thy seed after you — every male child among you shall be circumcised. '
 
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expos4ever

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I'm not really sure what you believe, which is why I suggested obeying the Ten because this is something that most certainly has not ended- does God want you to worship other gods, vain His holy name, murder, covet etc.
Please stop with this.

Everyone knows this a strawman argument. You have to know that no one here is advocating a position that requires them to commit to the notion that it is ok to murder, take the Lord's name in vain, etc.

Please stop misrepresenting others.
 
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expos4ever

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I believe the Biblical case is clear – the Law of Moses has been retired (including the 10) In this post, I intend to identify the elements of the argument for the retirement of the Law of Moses. Let me be clear: I am not, in the present post, going to substantially defend the assertions I make; This post is simply a statement of my position.

Elements of the Case for the Retirement of the Law of Moses:

1. Paul clearly declares its abolition in Ephesians 2

2. Paul clearly declares its abolition in Galatians 3. In this chapter, Paul declares the law to be a “paidagogos”, a kind of male babysitter whose task comes to an end when supervised child reaches adulthood

3. In Colossians, Paul refers to the law as nailed to the cross

4. In Romans 10, Paul refers to Jesus as the “end of the law”

5. In Romans 7, Paul refers to how we no longer serve “in the manner of the written code”

6. The Law of Moses was only ever given to Jews, and a central Pauline theme is that God wants to make it clear that membership in the “true covenant” family is open to all. So, as per Ephesians 2, he argues that the Law has to be done away with precisely it functioned to set the Jew apart from the Gentile. Paul’s theology does not allow for this – there is now no distinction between Jew and Gentile, so there can be no more Law of Moses which was for Jews only

7. Paul believes that God gave the Law of Moses for a specific reason: It caused “sin” to be concentrated and built up in the nation of Israel. Why would God do this? So that this sin could then be passed on to Israel’s representative – Jesus – and dealt with on the cross. Once that goal is achieved, there is no more need for the Law – it has fulfilled its “dark” purpose of making Israel the “place” where the sin of the world get concentrated.

8. To extract the essence of the previous two points: The Law of Moses was given by God for a very specific goal (see point 7). Once that goal has been achieved, the law has been fulfilled. So we can, of course, thinks of the law being “fulfilledand also retired. This is a key concept. Consider chemotherapy: It has a goal – the curing of the patient. When that goal is achieved, do we keep giving chemotherapy to the patient for the rest of his life? Of course not! It begs the very question at issue to presume that the Law of Moses is a set of timeless truths that last forever. It is clear that Paul does not believe this.
 
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expos4ever

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But... if we agree that the Law of Moses ended at the cross... all these carnal laws go away and we are only left with the Law of God... the 10 Commandments.
I am quite sure the 10 Commandments are part of the Law of Moses.

Again, Paul never mentions any "categories" within the Law.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Not part of the 10 but certainly a commandment that goes back even further than Moses.

Genesis 17:10–14, 'And God spoke to Abraham saying: … This is my covenant which you shall keep between me and you and thy seed after you — every male child among you shall be circumcised. '
I’m not sure how that changes Paul saying what matters is keeping God’s commandments.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Are you saying that we should obey Jesus
(I agree with that)
but not follow the particular command that he gives?
Who said anything about not following Jesus. To be honest, I’m not sure the point you are trying to make other than seemingly trying to discredit the Ten Commandments. Understanding scripture is easier when you believe in absolutes. The Ten Commandments is an absolute, the only law God wrote with His own finger and spoke with His own voice. The only law placed in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God’s Temple where He dwells and is also revealed in heaven. Revelation 11:19, now written in the heart and mind. Hebrews 8:10, Jeremiah 31:33 While I know this doesn’t seem significant to some, it does to me, because this is God’s will for us that He personally wrote. This is an absolute. Not nine commandments, not eight, but Ten Exodus 34:28. So I take a different approach to scripture and when there is an absolute I don’t try to endlessly find ways to discredit that, by a one-off in scripture taken out of context. All scripture has to reconcile, there are no contradictions, just misunderstandings. If one does not understand the significance of God’s law, I think understanding scripture will be difficult because it is a theme that runs throughout the entire bible. At any rate, you will probably disagree with this post and thats okay. God bless and take care.
 
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