Of the following spiritual gifts, which ones are still available and which ones have ceased?

[John Mullally]

Are you answering my question with a "Yes, its possible"?

Perfection occurs when we are with the Lord face-to-face. I don't know anyone walking in the kind of perfection where correction is never required.

No serious believer will tell you they have reached the state of perfection where they don't need the Word of God and Prayer - which were given by God to mature and bless believers. The tragedy is that many believers do not embrace the other things given by the Lord which were sent to mature and bless believers: Like receiving ministry from those operating in the gifts of the Holy Spirit and those operating in the offices of the "Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor, and Teacher".

 

[John Mullally]

So even if we see Jesus face to face, and have our redeemed bodies, you believe we still need to have faith and hope?

Without faith it is impossible to please God. Does that fact change when we are with the Lord? I don't have Bible on the topic of faith and hope in heaven. That's all I am going to say on that topic - I do not want to launch some tangent based upon pure speculation and take away from this very important topic.

Hope and faith in what? That we won't sin and lose our place in heaven?

We will not face temptation in heaven.

 

[Guojing]

Without faith it is impossible to please God. Does that fact change when we are with the Lord? I don't have Bible on the topic of faith and hope in heaven. That's all I am going to say on that topic - I do not want to launch some tangent based upon pure speculation and take away from this very important topic.

We will not face temptation in heaven.

I see, okay if you somehow can convince yourself to believe that we still need hope and faith after the 2nd coming, then yes, you can take the perfect in 1 Corinthians 13 as the second coming of Christ, and everything will make sense.

So what you are basically saying is that you are 100% certain that the perfect must refer to the 2nd coming. I can respect that view of yours. Thanks for sharing.

 

[John Mullally]

I see, okay if you somehow can convince yourself to believe that we still need hope and faith after the 2nd coming, then yes, you can take the perfect in 1 Corinthians 13 as the second coming of Christ, and everything will make sense.

The "Okay if you somehow can convince yourself to believe.." is a shot. I don't see how you make 1 Corinthians 13:13 part of a cessationist argument - it seems to me that Paul is repeating that Faith, Hope, and especially Love are more important then spiritual gifts.

I am arguing from Ephesians 4:11-16. You are arguing from 1 Corinthians 13. I don't care if you can turn continuation of the Gifts of the Spirit into a questionable doctrine by crafting an argument that "Perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13:10 has come in a way that suits your argument. That is a weak because Continuists can flip it around and define "Perfect" as they will, and then you are left with a stalemate.

As it turns out, the 1 Corinthians 13 arguments don't matter because the arguments for the continuation of Apostle and Prophet before Christ returns in Ephesians 4:11-13 is air-tight. I don't see how anyone can demonstrate that 1 Ephesians 4:13 has been fulfilled.

 

[Guojing]

As it turns out, the 1 Corinthians 13 arguments don't matter because the arguments for the continuation of Apostle and Prophet before Christ returns in Ephesians 4:11-13 is air-tight. I don't see how anyone can demonstrate that 1 Ephesians 4:13 has been fulfilled.

But when I ask you to name any person living today, whom you will consider an apostle fitting that of Ephesians 4, you decline to name any.

So much for your own conviction about the "air-tightness" of your perspective. =)

 

[Vap841]

I couldn’t imagine how intense the euphoria would be if I had the ability to heal people.

 

[swordsman1]

Even most continuists agree that apostles (in the biblical sense of the word) have ceased. "Apostles" in the NT always refers to the band of miracle-working, scripture-writing, eye-witness, authoritative spokesmen for Christ.

The thing to note about Eph 4 is that it is not the gifts listed in v11 that are said to continue, but rather the equipping of the church which will continue. The giving of the gifts in v11 is in the past tense so Paul is referring to people who have already been given those gifts, not those in the future. Equipping the church however is in the present tense. And the church today is still being equipped by the past ministry of the apostles and prophets via their writings in the New Testament. This passage says nothing about the continuation of those gifts, only that equipping the church would continue.

Even in the first century apostles were a rare breed, and most churches never had personal access to an apostle. So it must be their writings, rather than their personal instruction that would equip the church.

 

[TruthSeek3r]

But when I ask you to name any person living today, whom you will consider an apostle fitting that of Ephesians 4, you decline to name any.

So much for your own conviction about the "air-tightness" of your perspective. =)

This thread may be of interest: Examples of Modern Apostles and Prophets?

 

[John Mullally]

I couldn’t imagine how intense the euphoria would be if I had the ability to heal people.

It could wreck you with pride if you are not mature in the Lord.

 

[TruthSeek3r]

I couldn’t imagine how intense the euphoria would be if I had the ability to heal people.

Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven. (Luke 10:20 KJV)

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:22-23 KJV)

 

[John Mullally]

The thing to note about Eph 4 is that it is not the gifts listed in v11 that are said to continue, but rather the equipping of the church which will continue. The giving of the gifts in v11 is in the past tense so Paul is referring to people who have already been given those gifts, not those in the future. Equipping the church however is in the present tense. And the church today is still being equipped by the past ministry of the apostles and prophets via their writings in the New Testament. This passage says nothing about the continuation of those gifts, only that equipping the church would continue.

The inclusion of Ephesians 4:13 makes no sense if God intends the church to be equipped strictly by the distant memory of Ministry Offices (like Apostle and Prophet). No the ministry offices, not just their memory, continue.

Is your hunger satisfied by the memory of a distant meal. Give us this day our daily bread.

 

[swordsman1]

The inclusion of Ephesians 4:13 makes not sense if God intends the church to be equipped strictly by the distant memory of Ministry Offices (like Apostle and Prophet). No the ministry offices, not just there memory, continue.

Is your hunger satisfied by the memory of a distant meal. Give us this day our daily bread.

Their writings preserved in scripture is not a distant memory. And it certainly does equip us today.

"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16, 17)
​

Who are the living apostles that equip us today with the same unquestionable authority as Paul?

 

[TruthSeek3r]

Even most continuists agree that apostles (in the biblical sense of the word) have ceased. "Apostles" in the NT always refers to the band of miracle-working, scripture-writing, eye-witness, authoritative spokesmen for Christ.

• Not all the Apostles wrote scripture, so that requirement is evidently false.
• The eye-witness requirement is also questionable. The Apostle Paul was not among the first disciples who witnessed Jesus' resurrection. He had a Christophany on the road to Damascus (Acts 9), granted, but if Jesus did it once, He can certainly do it again (I can share testimonies if you want, but I know they will be dismissed as "hearsay").

The thing to note about Eph 4 is that it is not the gifts listed in v11 that are said to continue, but rather the equipping of the church which will continue. The giving of the gifts in v11 is in the past tense so Paul is referring to people who have already been given those gifts, not those in the future. Equipping the church however is in the present tense. And the church today is still being equipped by the past ministry of the apostles and prophets via their writings in the New Testament. This passage says nothing about the continuation of those gifts, only that equipping the church would continue.

You can also use the same past-tense argument to argue that there is no need for present-day pastors, evangelists or teachers. No need to cherry-pick apostles and prophets only.

Even in the first century apostles were a rare breed, and most churches never had personal access to an apostle. So it must be their writings, rather than their personal instruction that would equip the church.

The writings are valuable, granted, but it doesn't follow from that that the writers themselves are not valuable too, even if they are part of a scarce minority. Non-existence and utterly unnecessary do not follow logically from being rare and authoring high quality content.

 

[swordsman1]

Not all the Apostles wrote scripture, so that requirement is evidently false.

They all had the ability to write scripture because they were authoritative spokesmen for Christ. If their teaching had been written down it would form part of scripture. That was my point.

The eye-witness requirement is also questionable. The Apostle Paul was not among the first disciples who witnessed Jesus' resurrection. He had a Christophany on the road to Damascus (Acts 9), granted, but if Jesus did it once, He can certainly do it again (I can share testimonies if you want, but I know they will be dismissed as "hearsay").

Paul saw Christ physically in the flesh. It was not an internal vision which is what people claim today.

You can also use the same past-tense argument to argue that there is no need for present-day pastors, evangelists or teachers. No need to cherry-pick apostles and prophets only.

But we have scriptures that state those other gifts would be expected to continue...

Teachers continue: 1 Timothy 5:17, 2 Timothy 2:2, Colossians 3:16,
Evangelists continue: Romans 10:14, Matthew 28:19, 1 Timothy 5:17, Luke 24:47
Pastors continue: 1 Peter 5:1-3, Acts 20:28

Whereas apostles and prophets were only for the foundation of the church: Ephesians 2:20

The writings are valuable, granted, but it doesn't follow from that that the writers themselves are not valuable too, even if they are part of a scarce minority. Non-existence and utterly unnecessary do not follow logically from being rare and authoring high quality content.

I never said the writers were not valuable.

 

[TruthSeek3r]

They all had the ability to write scripture because they were authoritative spokesmen for Christ. If their teaching had been written down it would form part of scripture. That was my point.

"If their teaching had been written down it would form part of scripture" - this is pure counterfactual speculation, you have no way to prove this. And there is clear evidence to the contrary. Have you heard of the Lost Pauline epistles (Pauline epistles - Wikipedia). Not everything that the 12 apostles wrote made it to the canon. If an apostle writes something, it doesn't follow that the writings MUST necessarily make it to canon. Only if it's God's will it will happen (as in God will make sure providentially that that writings will be part of the canon). On the other hand, if it's NOT part of God's plan that some specific writings make it to the canon, then there is no reason to expect or demand that they necessarily do, even if they were written by an apostle.

Paul saw Christ physically in the flesh. It was not an internal vision which is what people claim today.

Several objections:

• How do you know this?
• Even if it was like you say, there is nothing preventing Jesus from showing up physically again.
• Modern testimonies of physical visitations by Jesus exist. (I know, you will dismiss them as "hearsay", no need to remind me.)

But we have scriptures that state those other gifts would be expected to continue...

Teachers continue: 1 Timothy 5:17, 2 Timothy 2:2, Colossians 3:16,

These passages are all in the present tense or involve things that people already alive at that moment would be expected to do in the very near feature. There is nothing that says that teachers will necessarily continue as an official office in 2000 years.

Evangelists continue: Romans 10:14, Matthew 28:19, 1 Timothy 5:17, Luke 24:47

• The word evangelist is never mentioned in those passages
• Matthew 28:19 is a commandment given directly to the Apostles, so this can be used as an argument for Apostles.
• Again, everything pretty much in present tense or involving individuals alive at that moment. Nothing about 2000 years into the future.

Pastors continue: 1 Peter 5:1-3, Acts 20:28

Again, present tense. Nothing about the future (2000 years).

Whereas apostles and prophets were only for the foundation of the church: Ephesians 2:20

The word ONLY is not found in the passage.

I never said the writers were not valuable.

So you believe they are valuable then? So present-day apostles and prophets (the persons themselves) would be valuable today too?

 

[John Mullally]

But when I ask you to name any person living today, whom you will consider an apostle fitting that of Ephesians 4, you decline to name any.

So much for your own conviction about the "air-tightness" of your perspective. =)

There are plenty of people who claim to be current-day Apostles. Feel free to start a new thread deriding them one-by-one. Realize, that that exercise will do nothing to discount what I have stated concerning Ephesians 4:11-13.

 

[swordsman1]

"If their teaching had been written down it would form part of scripture" - this is pure counterfactual speculation, you have no way to prove this. And there is clear evidence to the contrary. Have you heard of the Lost Pauline epistles (Pauline epistles - Wikipedia). Not everything that the 12 apostles wrote made it to the canon. If an apostle writes something, it doesn't follow that the writings MUST necessarily make it to canon. Only if it's God's will it will happen (as in God will make sure providentially that that writings will be part of the canon). On the other hand, if it's NOT part of God's plan that some specific writings make it to the canon, then there is no reason to expect or demand that they necessarily do, even if they were written by an apostle.

Well of course, an apostle is writing in their own personal capacity without the inspiration of the Holy Spirit would not be canonical. So Paul's invoices for the tents he made would not be included in scripture. But all the apostles had the ability to write scripture if God spoke through them as He often did.

How do you know this?

Because the others who were with Paul saw the same thing.

• Even if it was like you say, there is nothing preventing Jesus from showing up physically again.

• Modern testimonies of physical visitations by Jesus exist. (I know, you will dismiss them as "hearsay", no need to remind me.)

But has He? Those who claim to be apostles today need to prove they saw Christ in the flesh and were personally commission by him to be an apostle. And not just by them giving us their word. Otherwise any crank can claim to be an apostle.

These passages are all in the present tense or involve things that people already alive at that moment would be expected to do in the very near feature. There is nothing that says that teachers will necessarily continue as an official office in 2000 years.

So you think Paul instructions to "teach and admonish one another" only applied to the Colossian church alone? And all other Christians have to get by without teaching?

The word evangelist is never mentioned in those passages

An evangelist is someone who seeks to convert others by preaching the gospel.

Matthew 28:19 is a commandment given directly to the Apostles, so this can be used as an argument for Apostles.

The Great Commission applies to the whole church, not just the disciples Jesus was addressing.

The word ONLY is not found in the passage.

When constructing a building you only build a foundation once.

So you believe they are valuable then? So present-day apostles and prophets (the persons themselves) would be valuable today too?

If there really were genuine apostles and prophets today.

 

[John Mullally]

Ephesians 4:11-12 states that God gives some to be Apostles and Prophets and Ephesians 4:13 indicates that that extends to today as the conditions in that particular verse have not been met. Assuming biblical inerrancy, the only argument that can be constructed against God gives some to be Apostles and Prophets in this present day requires showing that Ephesians 4:13 has been fulfilled. Arguments concerning the necessity of present day Apostles and Prophets amount to nothing if Ephesians 4:13 has not been fulfilled.

Ephesians 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;​

 

[swordsman1]

Ephesians 4:11-12 states that God gives some to be Apostles and Prophets and Ephesians 4:13 indicates that that extends to today as the conditions in that particular verse have not been met. Assuming biblical inerrancy, the only argument that can be constructed against God gives some to be Apostles and Prophets in this present day requires showing that Ephesians 4:13 has been fulfilled. Arguments concerning the necessity of present day Apostles and Prophets amount to nothing if Ephesians 4:13 has not been fulfilled.

Ephesians 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;​

No it doesn't say "gives", v11 says Christ "gave" (past tense) apostles and prophets. It doesn't say he would continue to do so in the future. Those foundational apostles and prophets still equip the church today via scripture. This passage says nothing about the continuation of those gifts.

Paul clearly envisages that people can achieve "unity of the faith" etc in this life. Because in v14 he says once we do so "we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming".

This passage is no argument for continuationism at all.

 

[John Mullally]

No it doesn't say "gives", v11 says Christ "gave" (past tense) apostles and prophets. It doesn't say he would continue to do so in the future. Those foundational apostles and prophets still equip the church today via scripture. This passage says nothing about the continuation of those gifts.

The use of the word "until" in v13 indicates an ongoing process at the time of its writing. Closer inspection reveals that the giving of Apostles and Prophets continues to be an ongoing process, as Ephesians 4:13 has not been fulfilled.

Paul clearly envisages that people can achieve "unity of the faith" etc in this life. Because in v14 he says once we do so "we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming".

The fact that the purpose of the Ministry Offices is similar to Ephesians 4:13, underlies their importance.

This passage is no argument for continuationism at all.

If that is the case, you should have no problem showing how Ephesians 4:13 has been fulfilled. Waiting....