• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Did Christ at the cross end all the laws?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,852
7,674
North Carolina
✟361,919.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
If by "they" you mean Israel, yes they kept them... well sort of, not really.
But the question is dividing the law into moral, ceremonial, and civil categories.
So under moral law, you have Leviticus 18. There it says to keep God's statutes and ordinances.
So if some of those statutes and ordinances relate to animal sacrifices, we now have a moral law that says to keep those statutes and ordinances that relate to animal sacrifices.
Did I not note there were some exceptions there?
Are we straining gnats?
I'm sure there are laws in there somewhere that could possibly fit into more than one category.

This is not a scientific separation based on the atomic composition of its elements.
All laws divided into groups are subject to this possibility.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,852
7,674
North Carolina
✟361,919.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I asked you why the ceremonial laws no longer apply. How does Matthew 5:18 support this view? Likewise, how does John 19:30 support this view?
THey are in force until they are fulfilled (Matthew 5:18).
They are fulfilled (John 19:30).
 
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
9,304
2,555
55
Northeast
✟242,666.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Did I not note there were some exceptions there?
Are we straining gnats?
I'm sure there are laws in there somewhere that could possibly fit into more than one category.

This is not a scientific separation based on the atomic composition of its elements.
All laws divided into groups are subject to this possibility.
If a law can fit into more than one category, well... that's kind of my point. It's difficult, probably impossible, to come up with a list of the moral laws that is both reasonable and complete.

If the same law can be in both the moral and ceremonial category, then it looks like it would be both ended and continuing at the same time.
______________

But maybe it would be good to back up a bit.

I don't see Genesis 9 listed
But flesh with its life, that is, its blood, you shall not eat.

Are you interested in commenting on what category that would be in?
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
13,943
5,619
USA
✟731,532.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I
I don't see Genesis 9 listed
But flesh with its life, that is, its blood, you shall not eat.

Are you interested in commenting on what category that would be in?
Thats part of the heath laws that are still in the New Covenant.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,852
7,674
North Carolina
✟361,919.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
If a law can fit into more than one category, well... that's kind of my point. It's difficult, probably impossible, to come up with a list of the moral laws that is both reasonable and complete.
Moral laws relate to personal moral behavior, not to religious practices nor to societal governing laws.
If the same law can be in both the moral and ceremonial category, then it looks like it would be both ended and continuing at the same time.
1) No specific statement asserted moral and religious laws were in the same category.
2) The category of the law depends on the nature of the law, not what part of the Bible it is in.
3) The list I presented was simply a map to what part of the Bible you will find the various categories.
4) I presented the lists as neither exclusive nor exhaustive, laws can randomly be found elsewhere.
But maybe it would be good to back up a bit.

I don't see Genesis 9 listed
But flesh with its life, that is, its blood, you shall not eat.

Are you interested in commenting on what category that would be in?
That would be religious, given (Genesis 9:3) in anticipation of the sacrificial system and carried over into the Mosaic covenant (Leviticus 17:11, 14).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
9,304
2,555
55
Northeast
✟242,666.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Thats part of the heath laws that are still in the New Covenant.
Okay... And if a person eats meat with blood still in it then it looks like they are also guilty of breaking all of the ten commandments. That's why I ask about the other laws not included in the 10 commandments.

Peace be with you!
 
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
9,304
2,555
55
Northeast
✟242,666.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Moral laws relate to personal moral behavior, not to religious practices nor to societal governing laws.

1) No specific statement asserted moral and religious laws were in the same category.
2) The category of the law depends on the nature of the law, not what part of the Bible it is in.
3) The list I presented was simply a map to what part of the Bible you will find the various categories.
4) I presented the lists as neither exclusive nor exhaustive, laws can randomly be found elsewhere.

That would be religious, given (Genesis 9:3) in anticipation of the sacrificial system and carried over into the Mosaic covenant (Leviticus 17:11, 14).

I believe you wrote earlier
I'm sure there are laws in there somewhere that could possibly fit into more than one category.
If the same law could possibly be in more than one category, then it seems that would be a difficulty as far as which laws ended and which continue.
________________

But may I submit that we may actually be saying very similar things in different ways.

The reason that we can see which laws relate to moral behavior is because all humans have God's basic moral principles written on their heart. In addition, we as Christians have the much more refined principles such as the fruit of the Spirit written on our hearts.

So we can look at a law like Deuteronomy 22
28 If a man finds a lady who is a virgin, who is not pledged to be married, grabs her and lies with her, and they are found, 29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the lady’s father fifty shekels of silver. She shall be his wife, because he has humbled her. He may not divorce her the rest of his life.

and we can see the moral aspects there: rapists should be punished, and rape victims should be cared for.

The actual remedy given, that the rape victim marry her rapist, is offensive to our culture. But it probably made sense to the Israelites.

If I may be so bold as to further submit, the differences between what we are saying do not produce a significant difference in practice.

As I understand what you're saying, it's that certain laws have ended and certain laws remain. The laws that remain can be identified by their moral qualities or aspects.

I'm saying that the entire Law of Moses has ended. However, the law is still very useful for gaining wisdom. And, very importantly, in many places overlaps with the principles that were written on our hearts as part of the new covenant.

So whether a person keeps a law because they believe it remains or they keep it because it overlaps with their principles, well... the outcome is the same, no practical difference.
 
Upvote 0

expos4ever

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2008
11,261
6,249
Montreal, Quebec
✟315,519.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
One more time!. . .See Romans 13:8-10, noting "and whatever other commandment there may be."
What do you think Paul means by "and whatever other commandment there may be."?

In any event, you still need to directly address what Jesus says in Matthew 22. He says that the whole Law, yes the whole Law, is effectively a manifestarion of these two commandments:

‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’

‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.


The logic is inescapable. If, repeat if, you are going to defend the retention of what you call the "moral" elements of the law on the basis that they are grounded in love, you are obliged to retain the whole shebang, including the ceremonial stuff.

Again, Jesus connects the whole law to loving God and neighbour. How, then, can one part be retained and another part set aside by appeal to the principle of love?
 
  • Like
Reactions: pasifika
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,852
7,674
North Carolina
✟361,919.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I believe you wrote earlier

If the same law could possibly be in more than one category, then it seems tha would be a difficulty as far as which laws ended and which continue.
Only the Decalogue continues.
________________

But may I submit that we may actually be saying very similar things in different ways.

The reason that we can see which laws relate to moral behavior is because all humans have God's basic moral principles written on their heart. In addition, we as Christians have the much more refined principles such as the fruit of the Spirit written on our hearts.
So we can look at a law like Deuteronomy 22
28 If a man finds a lady who is a virgin, who is not pledged to be married, grabs her and lies with her, and they are found, 29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the lady’s father fifty shekels of silver. She shall be his wife, because he has humbled her. He may not divorce her the rest of his life.
and we can see the moral aspects there:
rapists should be punished, and rape victims should be cared for.
That's a principle, not a law. Law is specific, including God's law.
The above law requires a fine, marriage to the offended and no divorce.
The actual remedy given, that the rape victim marry her rapist,
is offensive to our culture. But it probably made sense to the Israelites.
Morality is not about culture, it is about morals which transcend culture.
If I may be so bold as to further submit, the differences between what we are saying do not produce a significant difference in practice.

As I understand what you're saying, it's that certain laws have ended and certain laws remain. The laws that remain can be identified by their moral qualities or aspects.
Only NT apostolic teaching authorizes which laws have ended and which laws remain.
I'm saying that the entire Law of Moses has ended. However, the law is still very useful for gaining wisdom. And, very importantly, in many places overlaps with the principles that were written on our hearts as part of the new covenant.
However, NT apostolic teaching is that the entire law has not ended, some of it is upheld (Romans 3:31), set on its right footing--for sanctification (Romans 6:16, Romans 6:19), and not for salvation or justification as the Jews believed.
So whether a person keeps a law because they believe it remains or they keep it because it overlaps with their principles, well... the outcome is the same, no practical difference.
The only Biblical difference to be made regarding law-keeping is between whether you are trusting on it, or the work of Christ, for your salvation and justification, not whether you keep it because it remains or keep it because you believe it.

And yes, I think we are in agreement on this. :)
Any difference is negligible, although I would encourage you to see it in the Scriptural view rather than your personal view.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
13,943
5,619
USA
✟731,532.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Okay... And if a person eats meat with blood still in it then it looks like they are also guilty of breaking all of the ten commandments. That's why I ask about the other laws not included in the 10 commandments.

Peace be with you!
I have never said we only have to obey the Ten Commandments, but I have said its a good place to start. :)
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Leaf473
Upvote 0

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
13,158
1,406
sg
✟278,800.00
Country
Singapore
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I have no idea what the texts in Acts have to do with this. Please explain precisely how the material from Acts undermines my assertion that Jesus is speaking metaphorically in Matt 5:17-19.

None of the Jewish believers, including Peter, James and John, thought Jesus was speaking "metaphorically" in any of those Matthew passages.

Their behavior in the book of Acts, regarding the Law of Moses, proved that.
 
Upvote 0

expos4ever

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2008
11,261
6,249
Montreal, Quebec
✟315,519.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
None of the Jewish believers, including Peter, James and John, thought Jesus was speaking "metaphorically" in any of those Matthew passages.

Their behavior in the book of Acts, regarding the Law of Moses, proved that.
How?
 
Upvote 0

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
13,158
1,406
sg
✟278,800.00
Country
Singapore
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

Already gave the passages but since you don't want to check, here are they

Acts 10
12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation;
but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Acts 11:
And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.

2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,

3 Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.

Acts 21
18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.

19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

If Peter and James, and any of the Jewish believers in Christ thought that any part of the Law of Moses ended at the cross, that Matthew 5:17-20 was metaphorical, they would not have uttered any of those statements that I have bolded for you.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,703
4,687
Hudson
✟351,309.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Not sure what you are saying. If you are saying that the Greek word "dogma" appears in Eph 2:15, please cite your sources.

G1378 - dogma - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

The Bible refers to multiple categories of law of the than the Law of God, such as the law of sin and works of the law. For example, in Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with the law of faith, and in Romans 7:25-8:2, he contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin and contrasted the Law of the Spirit of life with the law of sin and death, so justification always needs to be given for why a particular verse should be interpreted as referring to the Law of God, especially when using a Greek word that is not what is normally used to refer to the Law of God, when every other time that word is used by the Bible refers to something other than the Law of God.

Not sure what any of this has to do with the question of whether the law of Moses still applies. Yes, for the Jew, Romans 3:20 declares that the Law brings knowledge of sin. But that certainly does not mean that the Law is permanent. Perhaps something will come along in God's evolving redemptive plan that will supplant the Law of Moses in terms of giving knowledge of sin.

As for 1 John 3:4, there is no specific reference to Torah here, just lawlessness generally. To say that sin is lawlessness does not force us to conclude that a particular law - in this case the Law of Moses - remains in force.


In Matthew 4:15-23, it says that it is a light for Gentiles, so His Gospel message is not just for Jews, but rather he prophesied that it would be proclaimed to all nations (Matthew 24:12-14) and commissioned to his disciples with it to make disciples of all nations (Matthew 28:16-20). It was the same Gospel that Peter taught (Acts 2:38) and that Paul taught (Romans 15:18-19). In John 4:22, Jesus said that salvation is of the Jews, so our understanding of salvation from sin should be with respect to what Jews know to be sin.

The actions that are and are not sin are based on God's eternal nature, which has been expressed through His law, which is why the Bible often uses the same terms to describe the nature of God as it does to describe the nature of God's law, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12). If the way to act in accordance or against God's righteousness were to evolve over time, then God's righteousness would not be eternal, but it is eternal (Psalms 119:142), therefore any laws that God has ever given for how to act in accordance with his righteousness are also eternal (Psalms 119:160).

Likewise, sin was in the world before God's law was given (Romans 5:13), so there were no actions that became righteous or sinful when the law was given, but rather the law revealed what has always been and will always be the way to do that. For example, in was sinful to commit adultery in Genesis 39:9 long before the Mosaic Covenant was made, during it, and after it has become obsolete, and if that were to ever change, then God's eternal righteousness would not be eternal. God can certainly give progressive revelation, but everything that He reveals at a later time will always be in accordance with what He has previously revealed and it will never become righteous to commit adultery no matter how many covenants God makes. The Torah is how the Israelites knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so it shouldn't be a mystery that 1 John 3:4 is referring to the Torah, especially when the Torah is God's instructions for how to know Him (Exodus 33:13, 1 Kings 2:1-3), and in 1 John 3:4-6, those who continue to practice sin have neither seen nor known him.

Here is 1 Peter 2:21-22

For you have been called for this purpose, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you would follow in His steps, 22 He who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth;

Where does it say Jesus perfectly obeyed the Law of Moses? It says he committed no sin - this is not quite the same thing. We can discuss the subtleties of this distinction but, either way, we know that Jesus did not perfectly obey the Law of Moses! He challenged the food laws, declaring that nothing that goes into a man defiles him and he also challenged the law about stoning adulterers. And he "tested" / challenged the Law of Moses many other times.

Not least in suggesting that He (Jesus) was the place to go for forgiveness when the Law of Moses clearly prescribed that it was the Temple that served this role.

In Galatians 4:4, Jesus was born under the Law of Moses, so he was obligated to obey it, and he was sinless, so he never broke it, which includes Deuteronomy 4:2, which forbids adding to or subtracting from the Law of Moses. Jesus was a Jew, so even if it were grants that the Law of Moses only defined what sin is for Jews, him being sinless would mean that he perfectly obeyed the Law of Moses.

Jesus was one with the Father, so he should not be interpreted as being in disagreement with what the Father has commanded, so he never challenged food laws or anything else the Father commanded. In John 6:39, Jesus came only to do the Father's will, in John 14:24, he said that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father. In Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone is a false prophet who was not speaking for Him was if they taught against obeying His law, so if Jesus had done as you suggest, then according to God we should regard him as being a false prophet.

In Matthew 15:2-3, Jesus was asked why his disciples weren't following the tradition of the elders and he responded by asking them why they broke the command of God for the sake of their tradition, in Matthew 15:6, he said that for the sake of their tradition they made void the word of God, in Matthew 15:8-9, he said that they worshiped God in vain because they were teaching as doctrine the commandments of men, in Mark 7:6-9, he criticized them as being hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own tradition, and in Matthew 15:20, he was still speaking against the tradition spoken about in Mark 7:3-4 of being made common by eating with unwashed hands. So Jesus was making a stark distinction between the commandments of God and the traditions of men and he should be interpreted as speaking against the traditions of men rather than as even more hypocritically turning around and doing what he just finished criticizing them as being hypocrites for doing.

John 8:1-12 is an example of Jesus acting in accordance with the Mosaic Law requires. There was no judge to pronounce a sentence (Deuteronomy 19:17-21), there was no man accused (Leviticus 20:10), he didn't have any witnesses to examine (Numbers 35:30, Deuteronomy 19:15), and he did not have a confession, so if he had condemned her, then he would have acted in violation of the Mosaic Law. Just a few verses later Jesus said that he judged no one (John 8:15) and he also said that he came not to judge (John 12:47), so he did not exercise authority as a magistrate and did not condemn her, but he did recognize her action as sin, and told her to go and sin no more.
 
Upvote 0

expos4ever

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2008
11,261
6,249
Montreal, Quebec
✟315,519.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
THey are in force until they are fulfilled (Matthew 5:18).
They are fulfilled (John 19:30).
This does not make your case precisely because neither Matthew 5:18 nor John 19:30 pick out the "ceremonial" laws to the exclusion of other categories of law. Why should not conclude the whole Law is retired, which is what I believe to be the case?

In fact, you appear to be making the same argument I made. While in Matt 5:18, Jesus might appear to be saying the whole law (He never specifies the ceremonial Law) will last to the end of time, He is, in fact, using apocalyptic metaphor and intends us to understand that the Law will end on the Cross when He declares "It is finished" as in John 19:30.

You appear to simply assume that it is only the ceremonial elements of the Law that are "finished" at the cross.

How do you justify this restrictive interpretation?
 
Upvote 0

expos4ever

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2008
11,261
6,249
Montreal, Quebec
✟315,519.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
If Peter and James, and any of the Jewish believers in Christ thought that any part of the Law of Moses ended at the cross, that Matthew 5:17-20 was metaphorical, they would not have uttered any of those statements that I have bolded for you.
You posted this:

14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

...but here is the whole context:

14 But Peter said, “By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean.” 15 Again a voice came to him a second time, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.

Peter is mistaken! The voice tells him that the food laws are now over with. Which is precisely what would be the case if, as I am saying, Jesus is speaking metaphorically in Matthew 5:17-19! If He were speaking literally, the food laws would still be in place.

You also posted Acts 10:28:

28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

The unbolded text shows, again, that the Law of Moses, which essentially taught the Jew that the Gentile was unclean, is now abolished.

I have no idea how you think these texts support your believe that Matt 5:17-19 should be taken literally - they show the opposite, in fact.
 
Upvote 0

expos4ever

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2008
11,261
6,249
Montreal, Quebec
✟315,519.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
However, NT apostolic teaching is that the entire law has not ended, some of it is upheld (Romans 3:31),
Romans 3:31 does not teach that "some" of the Law is upheld, it teaches that all of it is. Perhaps other texts support your thesis that only "part" of the Law of Moses ended, but Romans 3:31 certainly does not make that case.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pasifika
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
9,304
2,555
55
Northeast
✟242,666.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What do you think Paul means by "and whatever other commandment there may be."?

In any event, you still need to directly address what Jesus says in Matthew 22. He says that the whole Law, yes the whole Law, is effectively a manifestarion of these two commandments:

‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’

‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.


The logic is inescapable. If, repeat if, you are going to defend the retention of what you call the "moral" elements of the law on the basis that they are grounded in love, you are obliged to retain the whole shebang, including the ceremonial stuff.

Again, Jesus connects the whole law to loving God and neighbour. How, then, can one part be retained and another part set aside by appeal to the principle of love?
I think that would go along well with the idea of God being the standard of morality. That is, a common reason Christians give when talking with atheists for the necessity of God is that without God, morality becomes a matter of individual preference or societal norms.

Thus if God says to, say, put blue thread in your clothes, then it is morally right or good to do that and morally wrong or evil to not do it.

Then of course, everything God says becomes a moral statement, because He is the standard of what is good or evil, right or wrong.
 
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
9,304
2,555
55
Northeast
✟242,666.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That's a principle, not a law. Law is specific, including God's law.
The above law requires a fine, marriage to the offended and no divorce.

Morality is not about culture, it is about morals which transcend culture.

Only NT apostolic teaching authorizes which laws have ended and which laws remain.
However, NT apostolic teaching is that the entire law has not ended, some of it is upheld (Romans 3:31), set on its right footing--for sanctification (Romans 6:16, Romans 6:19), and not for salvation or justification as the Jews believed.

The only Biblical difference to be made regarding law-keeping is between whether you are trusting on it, or the work of Christ, for your salvation and justification, not whether you keep it because it remains or because it overlaps with your principles.

And yes, I think we are in agreement on this. :)
Any difference is negligible, although I would encourage you to see it in the Scriptural view rather than your personal view.

I agree that seeing it in the Scriptural view is the way to go.
Only NT apostolic teaching authorizes which laws have ended and which laws remain.
From what I remember of what you wrote earlier, it's the ordinances that have ended, based on Ephesians 2:15.

Is there a scripture that says how to identify a law as an ordinance?
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,852
7,674
North Carolina
✟361,919.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I agree that seeing it in the Scriptural view is the way to go.

From what I remember of what you wrote earlier, it's the ordinances that have ended, based on Ephesians 2:15.

Is there a scripture that says how to identify a law as an ordinance?
It's the same as Colossians 2:14, a decree, doctrine.

NT apostolic teaching authorizes which are ordinances.

Hebrews reveals that administering the Mosaic laws was given to the Aaronic (Levitical) priesthood in the order of Aaron, so that when the priesthood was changed to the order of Melchizedek, there must necessarily be a change of the law which the new priesthood administered (Hebrews 7:12), that the former commandment is set aside because it was weak and useless--it made nothing perfect (Hebrews 7:18) and a better hope (new covenant) is introduced by which we draw near to God (Hebrews 7:19).

In the new covenant, we "draw near to God" in salvation and justification (imputed righteousness) through faith, apart from faith's necessary works of the Decalogue.
In the new covenant, the Decalogue is part of sanctification leading to holiness through obedience in the Holy Spirit (Romans 6:16, Romans 6:19), not a part of salvation and justification.

The weak and useless ordinances (Hebrews 7:18) would be those of Leviticus 1-8, 11-17, 21-25.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.