Did Christ at the cross end all the laws?

[SabbathBlessings]

The ten are included in the 613.
They are the 10 most important of the 613 commands of the Law. It only makes sense that James would quote them. That does not negate the rest of the Law.

That is where your argument comes up short, you divide the Law into KEEP and NOT KEEP but offer no scripture that says there are two Laws, one to be kept and one to be abolished. NT Scripture repeatedly speaks of “the Law” … one Law … that one is either under, or one is not under. (And that Law brings death, not life.)

God made a distinction with the Ten. How many laws did God personally write on stone with His own finger? The answer is here. Exodus 34:28

How many laws are inside the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God's Temple, which is also revealed in Heaven. Revelation 11:19

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The Jerusalem Council and the Holy Spirit (at least according to Acts).
(And it is just the Law that we are free from, we should still obey God … you made that part up.)

Hebrews 8:10 is not something I made up.

 

[atpollard]

God made a distinction with the Ten. How many laws did God personally write on stone with His own finger? The answer is here. Exodus 34:28

How many laws are inside the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God's Temple, which is also revealed in Heaven. Revelation 11:19

Why are they not even the two greatest Laws according to God incarnate?

 

[atpollard]

Hebrews 8:10 is not something I made up.

Sorry, but where did I say that you did?
Acts 15:28 is not something that I made up, either.
Romans 7:6 is also not something that I made up.
The list of verses that I did not make up goes on and on …

Hebrews 8:13 specifically states that there is a NEW COVENANT and the OLD COVENANT that you are attempting to yoke people with is obsolete and should disappear. Deuteronomy 4 affirms that the tablets are part of the old covenant between God and Israel.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Sorry, but where did I say that you did?
Acts 15:28 is not something that I made up, either.
Romans 7:6 is also not something that I made up.
The list of verses that I did not make up goes on and on …

Hebrews 8:13 specifically states that there is a NEW COVENANT and the OLD COVENANT that you are attempting to yoke people with is obsolete and should disappear. Deuteronomy 4 affirms that the tablets are part of the old covenant between God and Israel.

A covenant is an agreement, the agreement is obsolete, not the laws as stated by God in the New Covenant. Hebrews 8:10, Jeremiah 31:33.

The rest of the scriptures you posted have been addressed in detail Did Christ at the Cross end all the laws? and https://www.christianforums.com/threads/did-christ-at-the-cross-end-all-the-laws.8244074/page-4#post-76626544

 

[atpollard]

Because that is what makes up the Ten. The first 4 commandments on the first tablet is how we are to love God. The second tablet the last 6 commandments is how we are to love our neighbor. In keeping these commandments is loving God with all our hearts by not worshipping other gods, only worshiping Him, not bowing to idols, keeping His holy Sabbath day, and using His name as sacred, which it is. We show love to our neighbor and each other by honoring our parents, not stealing, lying, coveting, murder, committing adultery in doing these things it sums of loving our neighbor with all of our hearts.

The law of Moses where these 2 greatest commandments was quoted by Jesus still stands.

The first 4 show how ISRAEL was to honor God under the Old Covenant, and the last 6 show how ISRAEL was to love their neighbor under the Old Covenant. The NEW COVENANT is different and commands us to love our enemies (as one example of a difference). The LAW was to teach men that they need a savior. Read Romans again … you missed an important memo.

 

[expos4ever]

God made a distinction with the Ten. How many laws did God personally write on stone with His own finger? The answer is here. Exodus 34:28

We all agree that God wrote the 10 with His finger. But how is that an argument that they remain in force? You appear to be wanting to leverage the "gravitas" of the mechanism by which these laws were written in service of the argument they are in force. I think that, in the absence of other texts, this argument has some force.

But how do you deal with Romans 7 which explicitly declares we no longer "serve according to the law" with one of the commandments given as an example?

So while I see your argument, I think the balance of the evidence is decisively in favour of seeing the 10 as "retired".

 

[atpollard]

A covenant is an agreement, the agreement is obsolete, not the laws as stated by God in the New Covenant. Hebrews 8:10, Jeremiah 31:33.

The rest of the scriptures you posted have been addressed in detail Did Christ at the Cross end all the laws? and https://www.christianforums.com/threads/did-christ-at-the-cross-end-all-the-laws.8244074/page-4#post-76626544

I see, the agreement is obsolete, but the terms defining it are still in effect.

Count me out of this folly.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The first 4 show how ISRAEL was to honor God under the Old Covenant, and the last 6 show how ISRAEL was to love their neighbor under the Old Covenant. The NEW COVENANT is different and commands us to love our enemies (as one example of a difference). The LAW was to teach men that they need a savior. Read Romans again … you missed an important memo.

God never made a covenant with the Gentiles. Both covenants were made with Israel because God's Israel is synonymous with "God's people" I would not want to write myself out of the Covenant promise and we can't cherry pick the promises without the laws. :0) Not sure why anyone would not want to obey God when He tells us verbatim this is how we love Him. Exodus 20:6 which Jesus quoted verbatim John 14:15 and John 1 John 5:3 and Paul tells us what matters is keeping the commandments of God 1 Cor 7:19

Jesus is the Mediator of God’s New Covenant promise found in Hebrews. If we are in Christ there is no more Jew or Gentile and Gentiles are grafted into the New Covenant Promise . Galatians 3:28-29 Colossians 3:11 Romans 11:11-24.

 

[Leaf473]

Like I said, let the Holy Spirit be your guide. Most laws have an umbrella under the Ten Commandments- I would start obeying these in Truth and Spirit and let the Holy Spirit be your guide when we obey. John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32 God bless

Oh yes, the Holy Spirit should definitely be our guide.

And I think the spirit will guide us to keep all of the laws in place at a particular time.

It's great that most laws are "umbrella-ed' under the ten commandments. If you are breaking one that's not, then you're actually disobeying the 10 as well.

I'm here to discuss the law, and especially on this thread which laws ended at the cross. If you don't want to discuss that with me, that's fine.

I'll just say Peace be with you!

 

[Clare73]

Say, Clare73, it seemed like we agreed on most things in the past but I don't think we agree about this. Unless we actually do agree, and it's just a matter of settling on the terms. So I'd really like to understand what you're saying here.
Are those the only two categories in the law, levitical laws and moral laws?

There were the civil laws.

If so, are the moral laws just the ten commandments, or
are there other moral laws in the law?

There are other moral laws outside the Decalogue.

Ceremonial (religious) laws = Leviticus 1-8, 11-17, 21-25, which are no longer applicable.
Moral laws against man and God - Leviticus 18-19 (with a couple of exceptions), Exodus 20; Deuteronomy 5.
Civil laws - Leviticus 20; Exodus 21-23; Numbers 35:6-34; Deuteronomy 19:1-13, 21-26).

Sure hope we are still in agreement.

 

[expos4ever]

Not sure why anyone would not want to obey God when He tells us verbatim this is how we love Him. Exodus 20:6 which Jesus quoted verbatim John 14:15 and John 1 John 5:3 and Paul tells us what matters is keeping the commandments of God 1 Cor 7:19.

We all know that God gave the 10 commandments and instructed Israel to obey them! You seem to think that this fact alone logically necessitates that the 10 will be in place forever. This would not be correct.

And, yes, we know Jesus quoted from the Old Testament when He said

If you love Me, you will keep My commandments

But it is simply incorrect to conclude that this means Jesus is telling us to obey the 10 - He is telling us to obey His (Jesus's) commandments. You have more work to do to make the case that "His" commandments are the 10. Now it admittedly gets tricky because, obviously, what Jesus tells us aligns very closely with the 10. But that does not mean He is instructing us to follow the 10 anymore than I, as a Canadian, am expected to follow American Law even if Canadian law, that I am indeed to obey" aligns very closely with it.

No one here is saying we should not follow Jesus' commandments. We are just saying is that He is not instructing us to look to the 10 for moral guidance, but rather to Him. And to the extent that He bundles up the content of the 10 in what He teaches, one could, of course, say He is, in a sense, instructing us to the follow the 10. But that form of reasoning blows up in our faces since it would require us to follow all elements of the Law per this:

37 And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 Upon these two commandments hang the whole Law and the Prophets.

 

[expos4ever]

Ceremonial laws = Leviticus 1-8, 11-17, 21-25, which are no longer applicable.

On what basis do you believe they are not applicable? I believe they are not applicable as well, but likely for different reasons. Consider the text I just posted in my last post:

37 And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 Upon these two commandments hang the whole Law and the Prophets.

My position on this allows me to "account" for this text - I can accept what Jesus says while also believing that the time of the whole Law is about to come to an end as he utters these words.

How do you account for these words of Jesus within your view?

 

[Leaf473]

I suggest there is, at best, faint evidence to undergird this notion of different categories of law. Yes, we can impose these categories to sensibly discuss the Law.

Yes, I agree. I'm okay with people imposing categories on the law for the purpose of discussion if it's things like, say, laws given before the Exodus and those given between the Exodus and entering the Promised Land. Or laws that use the word "clean" and laws that don't.

But categories like "ceremonial" are vague. They work fine when discussing the theory of law keeping, and indeed theoretical discussions of the law can go on indefinitely.

But when looking at practical applications, it's not sustainable from the scriptures imo. I have asked many times specifically which laws are in the "moral" category. That's when people often go silent, so at least it ends the discussion.

If there were solid scriptural support for exactly which laws were the moral laws, I would expect to find lists of them all over the internet. I haven't as yet had success in finding any.

 

[Clare73]

.

 

[Leaf473]

There were the civil laws.

There are other moral laws outside the Decalogue.

Ceremonial laws = Leviticus 1-8, 11-17, 21-25, which are no longer applicable.
Moral laws against man and God - Leviticus 18-19 (with a couple of exceptions), Exodus 20; Deuteronomy 5.
Civil laws - Leviticus 20; Exodus 21-23; Numbers 35:6-34; Deuteronomy 19:1-13, 21-26).

Sure hope we are still in agreement.

Even if we disagree, hopefully we can have an edifying discussion

So... right off I noticed

Leviticus 18:26 You therefore shall keep my statutes and my ordinances...

Those statutes and ordinances, is that just the moral law? There are no ceremonial or civil statutes or ordinances?

 

[Clare73]

On what basis do you believe they are not applicable?

Matthew 5:18; John 19:30 and NT apostolic teaching.

I believe they are not applicable as well, but likely for different reasons. Consider the text I just posted in my last post:
37 And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 The

second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 Upon these two commandments hang the whole Law and the Prophets.
My position on this allows me to "account" for this text - I can accept what Jesus says while also believing that the time of the whole Law is about to come to an end as he utters these words.
How do you account for these words of Jesus within your view?

One more time!. . .See Romans 13:8-10, noting "and whatever other commandment there may be."

 

[Clare73]

Even if we disagree, hopefully we can have an edifying discussion
So... right off I noticed
Leviticus 18:26 You therefore shall keep my statutes and my ordinances...
Those statutes and ordinances, is that just the moral law? There are no ceremonial or civil statutes or ordinances?

And they kept them, didn't they?

Statutes, ordinances, commandments and regulations are law, which can be, and are, commonly grouped
into religious (ceremonial), moral and civil.

 

[Leaf473]

And they kept them, didn't they?

Statutes, ordinances, commandments and regulations are law, which can be, and are, commonly grouped
into religious (ceremonial), moral and civil.

If by "they" you mean Israel, yes they kept them... well sort of, not really.

But the question is dividing the law into moral, ceremonial, and civil categories.

So under moral law, you have Leviticus 18. There it says to keep God's statutes and ordinances.

So if some of those statutes and ordinances relate to animal sacrifices, we now have a moral law that says to keep those statutes and ordinances that relate to animal sacrifices.

 

[expos4ever]

Matthew 5:18; John 19:30 and NT apostolic teaching.

I asked you why the ceremonial laws no longer apply. How does Matthew 5:18 support this view? Likewise, how does John 19:30 support this view?