Did Christ at the cross end all the laws?

[Guojing]

That is, of course, a clear principle to apply. But how do you know if it is the correct principle? What do you mean by "makes sense"? That seems somewhat fuzzy.

Here is what I think makes sense. In Matt 5:17-19, Jesus says the Law will not pass away until all is accomplished.

What are Jesus' final words on the Cross?

As I told the other guy, if the 11 understood that at Matthew 28:20, Peter's reaction in Acts 10, as well as what James and the elders told Paul to do in Acts 21:18-25 will be contradictory.

None of them interpreted Jesus as saying that. It seems you cannot somehow put yourself in their shoes and understand how they would have understood Matthew 28:20

 

[Guojing]

I believe that scripture is an evolving narrative and that the Law came to an end at the cross. When Jesus spoke these words in Matthew 23:2-3, the cross still lay before Him


Jewish writers often used metaphor - I believe this is well established by historians.

Matthew 28:20 is NOT a metaphor, neither are Matthew 5:19 and Matthew 23:2-3, no reader will understand those as metaphors.

 

[Soyeong]

[Staff Edited Quote]


I think it’s important to note that God separated His laws from the very beginning. Many want to lump all laws and commandments as one, when God did not. This is an important distinction because once we get to the New Testament we see what exactly ended when Christ became our sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins we won’t make the mistake of claiming “all laws” ended, when they did not.

Genesis 26:5
because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

Nehemiah 9:13
“You came down also on Mount Sinai, And spoke with them from heaven, And gave them just ordinances and true laws, Good statutes and commandments.


2 Chronicles 33:8
and I will not again remove the foot of Israel from the land which I have appointed for your fathers—only if they are careful to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses.”

So here we have ordinances, law, statues and commandments. And Moses gave the ordinances by his “hand”.

When we get to the New Covenant God writes His laws in our hearts and mind- so they didn’t end in the New Covenant. Jeremiah 31:33 Hebrews 8:10-12

I hope and pray for those seeking to do the will of God if you are going to write out obeying God’s commandments you would have clear scripture stating so, if one is seeking to do the will of God and not our own.

I have yet to see one verse that says when Jesus died all laws have ended at the cross which some teach.[/quote]

In Deuteronomy 5:31-33, Moses wrote down everything that God commanded him without departing from it and all of God's commands have the same eternal and moral authority regardless of whether God wrote them or spoke them. Likewise, the Law of Moses is referred to the Law of God in verses like Nehemiah 8:1-8, Ezra 7:6-12, Luke 2:22-23. In Jeremiah 31:33, the Hebrew word used is "Torah", which refers to the Law of Moses. In Genesis 18:19, Genesis 26:4-5, and Deuteronomy 30:15-16, all of the promises were made to Abraham and were brought about because He walked in God's way in obedience to the Torah and taught his children and those of his household to do that, and, and because his offspring did that.

This is what ended from scriptures:

Col 2: 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

God’s Ten Commandments is God-written- the finger of God Exodus 31:18 and this includes Ten Commandments Exodus 34:28 not nine or eight. God’s law is holy, just and good Romans 7:12 and not grievous 1 John 5:3

What ended was only the law of Moses contained in ordinances. Eph 2:15 that was handwritten not God-written by Moses 1 Cor 33:8

The Bible used the Greek word "dogma" five times, twice in regard to Caesar's decree (Luke 2:1, Acts 17:7, and once in regard to the Jerusalem degree (Acts 16:4), so all of the other times that "dogma" is used outside of Colossians 2:14 and Ephesians 2:15 is in regard to man's decrees, which means that justification needs to be given for why the use of "dogma" in those two verses should be interpreted as referring to anything that God has commanded. It is widely held that Jesus gave himself to pay the penalty of our sins, so that is what is being spoken about in Colossians 2:14. The Torah was given as a gift to us for our own good in order to bless us (Exodus 33:13, Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), so it is not against us, but rather the handwriting of ordinances that was against us was the list of our sins in transgression of the Torah, which was nailed to Christ's cross, so he died in our place the pay the penalty of our sins. In regard to Ephesians 2:14-15, God did not make any mistakes when He gave His law, so He did not need to do away with His own law, and God did not give any laws for the purpose of creating a dividing wall of hostility, but rather His law instructs us to love our neighbor as ourselves.

In Matthew 4:17-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, the the Torah was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20, 1 John 3:4), so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message. Furthermore, Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so if we believe in what Jesus spent his ministry teaching and in what he accomplished through the cross, then we will become zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah (Acts 21:20), while saying that he abolished any of God's laws undermines what he spent his ministry teaching and what he accomplished through the cross, and also contradicts his own words in Matthew 5:17.

The scripture states the Holy Spirit will teach us all things. John 14:26 We receive the Holy Spirit to convict us of sins (lawlessness) John 16:8 (those who have not harden their hearts). Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit when we want to keep the commandments John 14:15-18 so we don’t have to do it on our own and the Spirit is given when we obey. Acts 2:38, Acts 5:32 so if you want to truly understand scripture we need to obey and the Holy Spirit will be our guide to teach us all things. The Holy Spirit will never guide you away from God’s law. That spirit does not come from God.

In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the mishpatim and the chukim, which are the two major categories of law of the Torah, which includes many laws that people often want to try to claim were nailed to the cross. Furthermore, n John 16:13, the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth, and in Psalms 119:142, the Torah is truth.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

In Deuteronomy 5:31-33, Moses wrote down everything that God commanded him without departing from it and all of God's commands have the same eternal and moral authority regardless of whether God wrote them or spoke them. Likewise, the Law of Moses is referred to the Law of God in verses like Nehemiah 8:1-8, Ezra 7:6-12, Luke 2:22-23. In Jeremiah 31:33, the Hebrew word used is "Torah", which refers to the Law of Moses. In Genesis 18:19, Genesis 26:4-5, and Deuteronomy 30:15-16, all of the promises were made to Abraham and were brought about because He walked in God's way in obedience to the Torah and taught his children and those of his household to do that, and, and because his offspring did that.



The Bible used the Greek word "dogma" five times, twice in regard to Caesar's decree (Luke 2:1, Acts 17:7, and once in regard to the Jerusalem degree (Acts 16:4), so all of the other times that "dogma" is used outside of Colossians 2:14 and Ephesians 2:15 is in regard to man's decrees, which means that justification needs to be given for why the use of "dogma" in those two verses should be interpreted as referring to anything that God has commanded. It is widely held that Jesus gave himself to pay the penalty of our sins, so that is what is being spoken about in Colossians 2:14. The Torah was given as a gift to us for our own good in order to bless us (Exodus 33:13, Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), so it is not against us, but rather the handwriting of ordinances that was against us was the list of our sins in transgression of the Torah, which was nailed to Christ's cross, so he died in our place the pay the penalty of our sins. In regard to Ephesians 2:14-15, God did not make any mistakes when He gave His law, so He did not need to do away with His own law, and God did not give any laws for the purpose of creating a dividing wall of hostility, but rather His law instructs us to love our neighbor as ourselves.

In Matthew 4:17-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, the the Torah was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20, 1 John 3:4), so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message. Furthermore, Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so if we believe in what Jesus spent his ministry teaching and in what he accomplished through the cross, then we will become zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah (Acts 21:20), while saying that he abolished any of God's laws undermines what he spent his ministry teaching and what he accomplished through the cross, and also contradicts his own words in Matthew 5:17.



In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the mishpatim and the chukim, which are the two major categories of law of the Torah, which includes many laws that people often want to try to claim were nailed to the cross. Furthermore, n John 16:13, the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth, and in Psalms 119:142, the Torah is truth.

Thanks for your response. Just curious, do you still make blood and animal sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins? Is Jesus our High Priest in the New Covenant or is it the Levitical priesthood?

 

[expos4ever]

Matthew 28:20 is NOT a metaphor, neither are Matthew 5:19 and Matthew 23:2-3, no reader will understand those as metaphors.

I never said Matthew 28:20 or Matthew 23:2-3 were metaphor. As for Matthew 5:18-19, I made a detailed, evidence-based argument explaining why I believe it is metaphor. You, by contrast, at least in this post of yours, are simply making a claim.

 

[Leaf473]

...the Levitical laws in relation to the moral laws.

Say, Clare73, it seemed like we agreed on most things in the past but I don't think we agree about this. Unless we actually do agree, and it's just a matter of settling on the terms. So I'd really like to understand what you're saying here.

Are those the only two categories in the law, levitical laws and moral laws?

If so, are the moral laws just the ten commandments, or are there other moral laws in the law?

 

[expos4ever]

In Deuteronomy 5:31-33, Moses wrote down everything that God commanded him without departing from it and all of God's commands have the same eternal and moral authority regardless of whether God wrote them or spoke them.

But that is what we are debating - you appear to be simply making a claim without providing the supporting argument. On precisely what scriptural basis do you believe that all of God's commands are "eternal"?

 

[expos4ever]

The Bible used the Greek word "dogma" five times, twice in regard to Caesar's decree (Luke 2:1, Acts 17:7, and once in regard to the Jerusalem degree (Acts 16:4), so all of the other times that "dogma" is used outside of Colossians 2:14 and Ephesians 2:15 is in regard to man's decrees, which means that justification needs to be given for why the use of "dogma" in those two verses should be interpreted as referring to anything that God has commanded.

Not sure what you are saying. If you are saying that the Greek word "dogma" appears in Eph 2:15, please cite your sources.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I never said Matthew 28:20 or Matthew 23:2-3 were metaphor. As for Matthew 5:18-19, I made a detailed, evidence-based argument explaining why I believe it is metaphor. You, by contrast, at least in this post of yours, are simply making a claim.

Remember also that the Gospel of Mathew wrote for a community of Jewish Christians. Quite natural that Jesus would tell them to obey the Pharisees and Jewish law. (as in 23:2-3)

 

[expos4ever]

As I told the other guy, if the 11 understood that at Matthew 28:20, Peter's reaction in Acts 10, as well as what James and the elders told Paul to do in Acts 21:18-25 will be contradictory.

None of them interpreted Jesus as saying that. It seems you cannot somehow put yourself in their shoes and understand how they would have understood Matthew 28:20

I have no idea what the texts in Acts have to do with this. Please explain precisely how the material from Acts undermines my assertion that Jesus is speaking metaphorically in Matt 5:17-19.

 

[expos4ever]

In Matthew 4:17-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, the the Torah was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20, 1 John 3:4), so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message.

Not sure what any of this has to do with the question of whether the law of Moses still applies. Yes, for the Jew, Romans 3:20 declares that the Law brings knowledge of sin. But that certainly does not mean that the Law is permanent. Perhaps something will come along in God's evolving redemptive plan that will supplant the Law of Moses in terms of giving knowledge of sin.

As for 1 John 3:4, there is no specific reference to Torah here, just lawlessness generally. To say that sin is lawlessness does not force us to conclude that a particular law - in this case the Law of Moses - remains in force.

 

[expos4ever]

Furthermore, Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22).

Here is 1 Peter 2:21-22

For you have been called for this purpose, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you would follow in His steps, 22 He who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth;

Where does it say Jesus perfectly obeyed the Law of Moses? It says he committed no sin - this is not quite the same thing. We can discuss the subtleties of this distinction but, either way, we know that Jesus did not perfectly obey the Law of Moses! He challenged the food laws, declaring that nothing that goes into a man defiles him and he also challenged the law about stoning adulterers. And he "tested" / challenged the Law of Moses many other times.

Not least in suggesting that He (Jesus) was the place to go for forgiveness when the Law of Moses clearly prescribed that it was the Temple that served this role.

 

[Leaf473]

We should follow the scripture. God wrote all His laws in the New Covenant. The New Covenant goes in detail as to what changed. In the New Covenant Jesus is our High Priest and we can go directly to Him for the forgiveness of sins instead of the Levitical priesthood so no more animal and food sacrifices. Hebrews 10, Col 2:14-17. Jesus is our Mediator between us and God administrating on our behalf. Circumcision ended and discussed in detail in the New Covenant and we have baptism as a symbol of accepting Christ as our personal Savior and walking in newness without sin. That doesn’t mean if we stumble and fall, we can’t go directly to Jesus for the forgiveness of sins. True repentance though means turning from sin, walking in Christ in obedience. Jesus doesn’t make us obey all by ourselves, when we want to obey Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit to help John 14:15-18. What we don’t want to do is live in perpetual sin, we can gain victory over sin with the help of Jesus Christ. What is impossible on our own is possible through Christ. The commandments are not meant to be burdensome, 1 John 5:3. God bless

Hi again, SB

The New Covenant goes in detail as to what changed.

I'm glad you said that, it's the details that I want to discuss. I think it's the details that can keep discussions about the law from becoming endless disputes.

In the New Covenant Jesus is our High Priest and we can go directly to Him for the forgiveness of sins instead of the Levitical priesthood so no more animal and food sacrifices. Hebrews 10, Col 2:14-17.

Okay, no more animal and food sacrifices. And I think you said earlier on the thread no more levitical sacrificial system.

Circumcision ended and discussed in detail in the New Covenant and we have baptism as a symbol of accepting Christ as our personal Savior and walking in newness without sin.

And no more circumcision.

So... regarding details and based on the scriptures... Are those the only things that ended at the cross? Everything else from the law remains?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Hi again, SB

I'm glad you said that, it's the details that I want to discuss. I think it's the details that can keep discussions about the law from becoming endless disputes.

Okay, no more animal and food sacrifices. And I think you said earlier on the thread no more levitical sacrificial system.

And no more circumcision.

So... regarding details and based on the scriptures... Are those the only things that ended at the cross? Everything else from the law remains?

According to scriptures the ordinances/ceremonial laws ended. God gives us the Holy Spirit when we obey and will guide us in all Truth. The Ten Commandments have nor will they ever end Revelation 11:19 so perhaps start obeying these in Truth and Spirit and the Holy Spirit can guide you regarding all the laws that you have been inquiring about for a very long time. Just a suggestion.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Remember also that the Gospel of Mathew wrote for a community of Jewish Christians. Quite natural that Jesus would tell them to obey the Pharisees and Jewish law. (as in 23:2-3)

Who do you think wants us to not obey God or His laws? It is certainly not God, which is why Gentiles are grafted into the New Covenant promise where God's laws are written in the heart and mind Hebrews 8:10. There is only one Gospel in scripture, not two.

God bless.

 

[Leaf473]

According to scriptures the ordinances/ceremonial laws ended. God gives us the Holy Spirit when we obey and will guide us in all Truth. The Ten Commandments have nor will they ever end Revelation 11:19 so perhaps start obeying these in Truth and Spirit and the Holy Spirit can guide you regarding all the laws that you have been inquiring about for a very long time. Just a suggestion.

Which laws are the the ordinances/ceremonial laws? Is it more than the levitical sacrificial system and circumcision?

It's important to know what all the laws are. If we stumble in a single point, we are guilty of breaking them all.

 

[atpollard]

James quotes directly from the Ten.

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

These commandments can be found in the Ten Commandments that God personally wrote with His own finger. Exodus 20 and came in a unit of Ten. Exodus 34:28

The ten are included in the 613.
They are the 10 most important of the 613 commands of the Law. It only makes sense that James would quote them. That does not negate the rest of the Law.

That is where your argument comes up short, you divide the Law into KEEP and NOT KEEP but offer no scripture that says there are two Laws, one to be kept and one to be abolished. NT Scripture repeatedly speaks of “the Law” … one Law … that one is either under, or one is not under. (And that Law brings death, not life.)

 

[atpollard]

Who do you think wants us to not obey God or His laws?

The Jerusalem Council and the Holy Spirit (at least according to Acts).
(And it is just the Law that we are free from, we should still obey God … you made that part up.)

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Which laws are the the ordinances/ceremonial laws? Is it more than the levitical sacrificial system and circumcision?

It's important to know what all the laws are. If we stumble in a single point, we are guilty of breaking them all.

Like I said, let the Holy Spirit be your guide. Most laws have an umbrella under the Ten Commandments- I would start obeying these in Truth and Spirit and let the Holy Spirit be your guide when we obey. John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32 God bless

 

[expos4ever]

That is where your argument comes up short, you divide the Law into KEEP and NOT KEEP but offer no scripture that says there are two Laws, one to be kept and one to be abolished. NT Scripture repeatedly speaks of “the Law” … one Law … that one is either under, or one is not under. (And that Law brings death, not life.)

A fair point - I suggest there is, at best, faint evidence to undergird this notion of different categories of law. Yes, we can impose these categories to sensibly discuss the Law. But, like you, I see no scriptural warrant to say one "category" of law has been retained and another discarded. As you say, they are indeed a "package deal".

In any event, I think Romans 7, by itself, deals a devastating blow to the notion that the 10 are retained - Paul clearly declares we no longer serve according to the letter of the law, and explicitly names one of 10 as an example.

Look what people have to do to evade this - they have to argue that when Paul says we no longer serve according to the Law, he really means we are no longer judged by the Law.

They are basically re-defining words to force-fit Romans 7 into their "the 10 commandments are still in force" theology.

Granted, we who believe the 10 are gone have some exegetical challenges of our own. But I would like to think we do not resort to re-defining the meaning of basic concepts, such as the very distinct concepts of "serving according to a law" and "being judged by a law".