Of the following spiritual gifts, which ones are still available and which ones have ceased?

[John Mullally]

Thanks, but my question still remains. What do you think are the main reasons why the Ephesians 4 list is significantly shorter than the one found in 1 Corinthians 12?

1 Corinthians 12 is mainly about the Gifts of the Spirit - and there are nine listed. In 1 Corinthians 12:28, Paul talks about roles in the body of Christ. They are linked because the gifts of the Spirit complement the roles.

Ephesians 4:11-16, written at a different point in time to a different church, strictly discusses the offices in the church (Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers). Paul was not led by the Holy Spirit to repeat 1 Corinthians 12 here. My point, which is inline with a portion of the OP ask, is to show that the Bible teaches that among other things, the Bible teaches that Apostles, Prophets, and Teachers are still valid ministries.

 

[Guojing]

1 Corinthians 12 is mainly about the Gifts of the Spirit - and there are nine listed. In 1 Corinthians 12:28, Paul talks about roles in the body of Christ. They are linked because the gifts of the Spirit complement the roles.

Ephesians 4:11-16, written at a different point in time to a different church, strictly discusses the offices in the church (Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers). Paul was not led by the Holy Spirit to repeat 1 Corinthians 12 here. My point, which is inline with a portion of the OP ask, is to show that the Bible teaches that among other things, the Bible teaches that Apostles, Prophets, and Teachers are still valid ministries.

I see, thanks for clarifying.

Final question about your last sentence, you think apostles still exist today?

 

[John Mullally]

I see, thanks for clarifying.

Final question about your last sentence, you think apostles still exist today?

Many define Apostles as comprising 11 of the original 12 plus Paul. If that is your definition, then there are no Apostles today. One problem with that is that Paul in Galatians 1:19 calls James the brother of Jesus an Apostle. In 1 Thessalonians 2:6 Paul identifies his traveling companions (Silas and Timothy) as Apostles. You can make an argument from 1 Corinthians 4:6-9 that he identifies Apollos as an Apostle.

In Post #257, I show from Ephesians 4 that the office of the Apostle (as well as Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor, and Teacher) are still applicable. If the office of Apostle is applicable for today when there are millions of Bible believing Christians, I believe there must be some living Apostles.

 

[Guojing]

Many define Apostles as comprising 11 of the original 12 plus Paul. If that is your definition, then there are no Apostles today. One problem with that is that Paul in Galatians 1:19 calls James the brother of Jesus an Apostle. In 1 Thessalonians 2:6 Paul identifies his traveling companions (Silas and Timothy) as Apostles. You can make an argument from 1 Corinthians 4:6-9 that he identifies Apollos as an Apostle.

In Post #257, I show from Ephesians 4 that the office of the Apostle (as well as Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor, and Teacher) are still applicable. If the office of Apostle is applicable for today when there are millions of Bible believing Christians, I believe there must be some living Apostles.

Most people, even continualists, would agree that the original 12 apostles and Paul are special, so no one can ever be "that kind" of apostle.

But would there be anyone in the last few years, you would consider to be an apostle, based on a more relaxed definition?

 

[John Mullally]

But would there be anyone in the last few years, you would consider to be an apostle, based on a more relaxed definition?

Ministry Offices are assigned by the Lord. Anyone named is going to be trashed by at least 30% of Christendom. I am not interesting in starting a totally unfruitful discussion.

I think a conversation on the office of the Prophet is much more interesting than Apostle. If the office of the Prophet has not ceased, then neither have the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Some argue for the cessation of the gifts of the Spirit based upon establishment of the canon of scripture which supposed fulfills 1 Corinthians 13:8. But how does one argue that Ephesians 4:13 has taken place? And how does one argue that the Ministry Office of Prophet is not necessary, when Paul says it is in Ephesians 4:14-16.

 

[Guojing]

Ministry Offices are assigned by the Lord. Anyone named is going to be trashed by at least 30% of Christendom. I am not interesting in starting a totally unfruitful discussion.

I think a conversation on the office of the Prophet is much more interesting than Apostle. If the office of the Prophet has not ceased, then neither have the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Some argue for the cessation of the gifts of the Spirit based upon establishment of the canon of scripture which supposed fulfills 1 Corinthians 13:8. But how does one argue that Ephesians 4:13 has taken place?

Your last point is quite straightforward, Paul was still alive when he wrote Ephesians, so he is still an apostle.

Scripture was also not completed at Ephesians.

But he did pre-empt us, in final verse of 1 Corinthians 13, that what will remain are faith hope and charity.

 

[John Mullally]

Your last point is quite straightforward, Paul was still alive when he wrote Ephesians, so he is still an apostle.

Yes, there were Apostles alive when Ephesians was written.

Scripture was also not completed at Ephesians.

Yes, other NT letters were written after Ephesians.

But he did pre-empt us, in final verse of 1 Corinthians 13, that what will remain are faith hope and charity.

I am left guessing as to what you mean here. Much less how that relates to the previous two statements.

 

[Guojing]

Yes, there were Apostles alive when Ephesians was written.


Yes, other NT letters were written after Ephesians.

I am left guessing as to what you mean here. Much less how that relates to the previous two statements.

That means, now, only faith hope and charity remain. No more apostles, prophets etc.

We are living in the same age of silence from God, as what happened during the 400 years of silence between Malachi and when Angel Gabriel appear to Zecharias.

The next big event will be the rapture. So in the meantime, we really need to have faith hope and charity during this age of silence.

 

[John Mullally]

That means, now, only faith hope and charity remain. No more apostles, prophets etc.

The idea that the gifts of the spirit died out with the death of the last Apostle or with the canonization of scripture is not stated in scripture; rather it is contradicted in Ephesians 4 by an Apostle.

Ephesians 4 says that the Ministry Offices of "Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor, and Teacher" are given by God, are vital, and will remain till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. As long as the office of the Prophet remains, so does the gift of Prophesy and the other gifts of the Spirit.

It is foolish to count as nothing or worse that which is given by God for our benefit (Ephesians 4:11-16).

 

[Guojing]

The idea that the gifts of the spirit died out with the death of the last Apostle or with the canonization of scripture is not stated in scripture; rather it is contradicted in Ephesians 4 by an Apostle.

Ephesians 4 says that the Ministry Offices of "Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor, and Teacher" are given by God, are vital, and will remain till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. As long as the office of the Prophet remains, so does the gift of Prophesy and the other gifts of the Spirit.

It is foolish to count as nothing or worse that which is given by God for our benefit (Ephesians 4:11-16).

That is why I said scripture was not completed when Paul was writing Ephesians, and you agreed with that statement.

So saying there are no prophets now is not contradicting Ephesians.

I presume you believe the bolded part of your paragraph only happens at the 2nd coming of Christ? Are you 100% sure that is what Paul meant there?

Because if it does, then it means the perfect in 1 Corinthians 13 must also refer to the 2nd coming of Christ, since he stated prophecies will vanish then too.

But if that is the case, why would we still need to have faith and hope when we see Christ face to face in our redeemed bodies?

 

[John Mullally]

That is why I said scripture was not completed when Paul was writing Ephesians, and you agreed with that statement.

So saying there are no prophets now is not contradicting Ephesians.

No, what you are saying contradicts Ephesians. Ephesians 4:11-13 says that the Office of the Prophet remains necessary until the condition in Ephesians 4:13 is met. Completion of scripture does not cause the condition of Ephesians 4:13 to be met. Believers man have largely agreed on what constitutes scriptural text, but have not come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God. I don't know anyone who claims to be a perfect man, and has come to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.

Ephesians 4:13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
​

Because if it does, then it means the perfect in 1 Corinthians 13 must also refer to the 2nd coming of Christ, since he stated prophecies will vanish then too.

The perfect comes for the entire church at the second coming or closely after; and individually when we get our redeemed bodies. I don't want to argue the point of when we get our redeemed bodies.

But if that is the case, why would we still need to have faith and hope when we see Christ face to face in our redeemed bodies?

I don't know how you arrive at this conclusion. 1 Corinthians 13:13 is talking about before the perfect comes.

 

[Guojing]

I don't know how you arrive at this conclusion. 1 Corinthians 13:13 is talking about before the perfect comes.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Interesting, so if vs 8, 13, what you stated is correct, that means you believe there must be a definite period of time in between the 2nd coming of Christ, and the ceasing of tongues, prophecies and word of knowledge correct?

The timeline goes

tongues, and prophecies cease >>>> Faith, hope and charity remains necessary >>>>> perfect comes (2nd coming of Christ), where as you claim faith hope and charity is no longer necessary)

Do you understand what I am saying?

You may find this discussion about what perfect means interesting Those who believe the perfect in 1 Cor 13:10 refers to the 2nd coming...

 

[Guojing]

I don't know anyone who claims to be a perfect man, and has come to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.

Ephesians 4:13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
​

The perfect comes for the entire church at the second coming or closely after; and individually when we get our redeemed bodies. I don't want to argue the point of when we get our redeemed bodies.

Let me give you another passage from Paul himself when he links the perfect man to scripture, 2 Timothy 3

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Here is a very clear example where Paul talks about the perfect man of God, that has nothing to do with the 2nd coming of Christ nor when we get the redeemed bodies, and is linked to the the completion of scripture "All scripture".

Based on this, do you think it is possible that Paul meant perfect or perfect man as something that can happen before the 2nd coming of Christ?

Note I am just asking you whether you think it might be possible. You are still free to hold the doctrine that the perfect refers to the 2nd coming.

 

[TruthSeek3r]

Based on this, do you think it is possible that Paul meant perfect or perfect man as something that can happen before the 2nd coming of Christ?

Note I am just asking you whether you think it might be possible. You are still free to hold the doctrine that the perfect refers to the 2nd coming.

What about Philippians 3:12-21?

12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

17 Brothers, join in imitating me, and keep your eyes on those who walk according to the example you have in us. 18 For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
​

The perfection Paul talks about in this passage has clearly not happened yet.

 

[TruthSeek3r]

@Guojing and @John Mullally, this thread may be of interest: Are there different types of perfection according to Paul?

 

[John Mullally]

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Interesting, so if vs 8, 13, what you stated is correct, that means you believe there must be a definite period of time in between the 2nd coming of Christ, and the ceasing of tongues, prophecies and word of knowledge correct?

The timeline goes

tongues, and prophecies cease >>>> Faith, hope and charity remains necessary >>>>> perfect comes (2nd coming of Christ), where as you claim faith hope and charity is no longer necessary)

I don't agree with that timeline. Charity (AKA Love) will always exist because God is Love. I am of the opinion that faith and probably hope continue. One could argue that the cross was a tremendous test of Jesus's (who laid aside His deity) faith and hope - but I don't want to go down that path.

 

[John Mullally]

Let me give you another passage from Paul himself when he links the perfect man to scripture, 2 Timothy 3

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Here is a very clear example where Paul talks about the perfect man of God, that has nothing to do with the 2nd coming of Christ nor when we get the redeemed bodies, and is linked to the the completion of scripture "All scripture".

The perfect man of God in 2 Timothy 3:17 is our target. God gave scripture, the Holy Spirit, and the Ministry Offices in the body (Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastors, and Teachers) for our benefit to get us there. Fulfillment of 1 Ephesians 4:13 requires that we all men of God be united in faith and perfect - which from all appearances has certainly not happened yet.

 

[Guojing]

The perfect man of God in 2 Timothy 3:17 is our target. God gave scripture, the Holy Spirit, and the Ministry Offices in the body (Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastors, and Teachers) for our benefit to get us there. Fulfillment of 1 Ephesians 4:13 requires that we all men of God be united in faith and perfect - which from all appearances has certainly not happened yet.

Are you answering my question with a "Yes, its possible"?

 

[Guojing]

I don't agree with that timeline. Charity (AKA Love) will always exist because God is Love. I am of the opinion that faith and probably hope continue. One could argue that the cross was a tremendous test of Jesus's (who laid aside His deity) faith and hope - but I don't want to go down that path.

So even if we see Jesus face to face, and have our redeemed bodies, you believe we still need to have faith and hope?

Hope and faith in what? That we won't sin and lose our place in heaven?

 

[Guojing]

What about Philippians 3:12-21?

12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

17 Brothers, join in imitating me, and keep your eyes on those who walk according to the example you have in us. 18 For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
​

The perfection Paul talks about in this passage has clearly not happened yet.

That is why I asked him whether "it is possible". If you think its impossible and that the perfect must refer to the 2nd coming, I am fine with that. All of us have a right to our opinion.

I certainly think its possible the perfect means 2nd coming, that is if you also can imagine we still need to have faith and hope after that.