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Is division and denomination bad?

Albion

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It is my understanding that prayers for those who have died are to enable them to move from torment to paradise.
You mean heaven, not paradise.

But the idea of praying someone out of torment would be close to what the Catholic Church believes, that's true. However the RCC is the only denomination that believes in a Purgatory.

Besides which, there are other churches which pray that God will be merciful to the departed or that they will grow in glory or something like that, none of which presumes that the prayers will change God's mind about anything or will move the deceased to some other part of the afterlife, etc.
 
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Nova2216

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Also, just so there's no confusion, I'm not claiming the Deuterocanonical books are properly canonical and inspired--I don't have a dogmatic position one way or the other.

My sole point is to get people to think about what they believe critically. The matter of the Biblical Canon is simply an obvious example of how there are aspects of Christianity which are, very obviously, extra-biblical. What we say about the Bible in this way cannot itself be found in Scripture; but is instead extra-biblical. This isn't a problem for most Christians, but if one is making the argument that anything not in the Bible is wrong or bad then the very existence of the Bible itself conflicts with such a view.

Bible-onlyism is a false and nonsense idea. And, of course Bible-onlyism is not the same thing as Sola Scriptura, two entirely different animals. Sola Scripture states that Scripture is the final court of appeal, the Norma Normans of Christian faith and practice. This phrase Norma Normans is Latin meaning "The ruling rule", "the unruled rule", or "the norm that norms": Scripture establishes the rule of faith (regula fidei). That does not mean that there are not other rules or other standards, such as the Creeds and so forth, which are the Norma Normata, "the ruled rule" or "the normed norm"; i.e. the norms which are informed and ruled by the un-ruled rule of Scripture. The Creeds are not in the place of Scripture, but are guided by Scripture. The Church as a living body of believers practicing and believing their faith are grounded in the word of Scripture, and therefore confess the faith--that confession, that faith are the Creeds of the Church. And, likewise, through our historic and received faith and practice as Christians there has arisen a senses fidie, a consensus of faith, on which books are received as divinely inspired and authoritative as Scripture--this is the Bible. The Bible, as the Canon of Sacred Scripture, the divinely inspired written word of God, is the result of the unfolding history and general consensus of faith of the Christian Church down through the centuries. Though this consensus has not, and still remains, not strictly uniform: Which is why there continues to be debate over the Canon, specifically, over the Deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament.

To reach a dogmatic position on whether these books should or should not be in the Canon of Scripture should require, at the very least, a good reason. I simply do not accept that fiat pronouncements by this or that group of Christians suffices as a good reason for such a dogmatic position.

Simply saying "The Bible has 66 books because God made it that way" is a non-reason. When did God make it that way? How? On what basis do we know this? Just because you or your church only accepts this smaller Canon does not mean this was God's decision. I do not accept the infallibility of any man, not the vicar of St. Peter in Rome, nor of some pastor of a small non-denominational church in Smalltown, USA.

-CryptoLutheran

You seem to be teaching clearly that the revelation of God is still being revealed even today. Another point you make is that is is a good thing for churches to teach differring doctrines (if I understand you correctly).

I have a difficult time believing you on these points in light of (2Peter 1:3) (1Cor. 1:10) and (Phil.3:16-19).

The word of God teaches there is one uniform rule to follow (Phil. 3:16).

This rule of God is complete (perfect) (Jas.1:25) (2Tim.3:16,17).

We must not stray from that God given rule (1Tim.1:3) (1Cor. 4:6) (1Cor. 1:10).

God gave the apostles "ALL" the revelation according to (Jn 14:26 ; 16:13) (2Peter 1:3).

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness,

Did God lie in (2Peter 1:3)?



All the above information was given in the first century.

It seems many churches have a difficult time understanding or accepting small words like "ALL" or "INTO".


We (coC) do not expect anyone to take our word on the matter. Read and accept the word of God I have pointed out above. (1Tim.4:1-4) (2Tim.4:1-4).

1Ti 4:1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.


Thanks
 
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Nova2216

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You mean heaven, not paradise.

But the idea of praying someone out of torment would be close to what the Catholic Church believes, that's true. However the RCC is the only denomination that believes in a Purgatory.

Besides which, there are other churches which pray that God will be merciful to the departed or that they will grow in glory or something like that, none of which presumes that the prayers will change God's mind about anything or will move the deceased to some other part of the afterlife, etc.

No I meant paradise (the place of disembodied spirits).

Thanks
 
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Albion

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No I meant paradise (the place of disembodied spirits).

Thanks
Okay, but no one prays for people in Paradise. And there are none there anyway, not since Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

Therefore, the only possible reference to "torment" would be Hell and, no, prayer will not move anyone from Hell to Paradise.
 
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Nova2216

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Creed books are an addition to or a subtraction from the word of God.

Church A - Says baptism (in water) was once the door into the Lords Church and afforded men all the spiritual blessings which are in Christ, but now it has changed. (not biblical) On this point I would ask who changed it and did they have the authority to change the Holy Word of God?

Church B - Says Baptism can be done by immersion,sprinkling or pouring. (Acts 8 teaches baptism is an immersion in water / note also Mt. 3 / Col. 2:12 / Jn 3:3-5,23)

Church C - Says Believe (not) + Baptism = Saved (note Mark 16:16)

Church D - Says Believe + Baptize (not) = Saved (note Mark 16:16)

Church E - Works are not necessary for salvation. (note Acts 10:33-35 / 1Peter 3:20,21 and Heb. 5:9 says something different).

The Bible says baptism saves us (1Peter 3:20,21)

Looks like creed books do oppose the word of God.


Can all these churches teaching different doctrines please God according to (1Thess.4:1-3) (Phil. 3:16-19) (1Cor. 1:10) (1Tim.1:3).

...that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more

...teach no other doctrine,

1Co 1:10 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

...let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.



Read more here.
Mission Printing Home Page
 
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ViaCrucis

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It is my understanding that prayers for those who have died are to enable them to move from torment to paradise.

(Luke 16:19-31) clearly teaches two points.

1. The dead cannot move from torment to paradise (Luke 16:26).

2. The dead cannot go back to earth (Luke 16:27-31).

It would appear then that your understanding of Christian prayer for the dead is inaccurate.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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You seem to be teaching clearly that the revelation of God is still being revealed even today.

Nope. Not what I believe or what I'm saying.

Another point you make is that is is a good thing for churches to teach differring doctrines (if I understand you correctly).

Nope. Not what I believe or what I'm saying.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Rhemajoy

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we have thousand of denominations due to division. Leaders have their 'own' understanding and opinions after they read the bible. It's sad I think it's how the Lord want it to be done. If you read the church history all the way up to now, you'll see godly servants of the Lord broke from their origin church and start their own denomination, some turned out to be good and some became really bad, in short no perfect church. Well it's sad and hard to swallow to see so much division for someone who's new to the faith but it's the reality.

I personally believed God is in charge of this, until Jesus's 2nd coming it will stay what is it, what do you think?

(different groups or churches is challenging to a new believer, he might ask 'so which church/community should I go to?')
 
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Rhemajoy

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What does "not allowed" mean there? I can walk into almost any Christian church in town this Sunday and not be quizzed on doctrine, nor do I know of very many churches which keep track of or somehow otherwise make sure that all of its members believe all the approved doctrines.

But as for relations between different denominations, it's usually cordial and both sides agree that the other is genuinely Christian *(even with the differences).


That would need you to be more specific.
Humans are fallen. We live in a world that is fallen and imperfect. We will always be imperfect until we reach glory. Nobody has it all right and nobody had it all wrong. We each naturally develop our own understanding of what Truth is. Not one of us has it all figured out. Problem is, we tend to lean more on human logic and formal education, while leaning less on the Holy Spirit to teach us.

If every single person could even remotely fully surrender to the Spirit's teaching as we come together in one accord, all Truth would be rightly divided because the Holy Spirit has come to help us discern Truth from lies. The Spirit is One, fully united with God the Father and Christ, the Son. He cannot be divided. Where there is division, it is never from the Holy Spirit.

The father of lies creates doubt, confusion, chaos and division. Divide and conquer is his game. Always has been and humans make themselves such easy prey.

We desire to prove we are right so much more than to be willing to see how we might be wrong. Even today, thousands of years after our Savior walked the earth, the Pharisee in all of us tends to blind us from the Truth more often than not. (I have been no exception but due to some very personal experiences in life, that is beginning to change.)

I have explored the belief systems of many denominations over my lifetime in my quest to understand why we are so divided. They all have elements of Truth that others may be missing and they all get some things very wrong. I have not found many answers I have been searching for but I have learned at least one important factor. Christians waste way to much time looking for the flaws and way too little time seeking the Holy Spirit's help to find common ground to unite upon.

Every single individual will have different ideas on what being a Christian ought to look like. Instead og trying to figure out all the texts and interpretation and theological application that even scholars with the highest degrees can't agree on, we should all be seeking the heart of Christ and asking HIM through His Spirit, in prayer to make us into His image.

We need to spend less time trying to prove and point out who is right and who is wrong and more time loving and serving as Christ did. Jesus made it simple. He took all the commandments that all the religious leaders created out of the first 10 and brought them all together in just two. Love God and love others, thinking of them as better than ourselves. Sounds pretty simple but our fallen state insists in making it so impossible to do. If we can't even unite with love for one another, we won't be able to effectively share the gospel to an unbelieving world.

They will know that we are Christians, not by how well we interpret the Bible, not how well we keep the rules, not by our wisdom or experience or how many letters we have after our name. They will know that we are Christians by how well we love. We need to get back to the simplicity of Jesus' teaching. Everything in the Bible is summed up and complete in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and everything we need to know about how to reflect the image of God is covered in the first three words of John 3:16, "For God so loved..."

It is so simple yet people have made it so complicated to the point that wars have broke out and people have fought and been killed in the name of Christ! It is sad that most Christians can't even see the hypocrisy and absurdity of it all...yet unbelievers see it so clearly which is why they want no part of it. Oh the irony.

In the last days, when Christ calls His Church home, there will be all kinds of people from all different denominational belief systems who will find unity together. They are the Church that will be taken up. There will also be many members from differing denominations who will be left because they persued self-righteousness over God's holiness. They will remain divided and divisive. The Lord will say, 'Go away, I do not know you "

We must first seek the Kingdom and righteousness of God through Christ above all else. Otherwise we have nothing. Only then will we learn to love God and consequently one another. Only then will the Church be the Church. The Church of Christ is the body of believers UNITED in Christ. It is not a denomination and He will not allow the gates of hell to prevail against her! She is alive. She is actively growing through unity with Christ, but as long as we are caught up in a belief system and not in the Savior, we will remain divided and go down in a sinking ship called The Denomination.
 
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Rhemajoy

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Churches would be much more orderly if they did not have humans in them. However, we humans do not always agree, so we create choices.

By the way, ALL THE OTHER great religions of the world have divisions too, and even the Christian denominations that claim unity have a formal unity, but there is still a private disagreement among the members that is often as strong as that which separates denominations.

Study and pray and join the church that you sincerely believe has the right answers. That is all we can do and it is what we should do.
True
we have thousand of denominations due to division. Leaders have their 'own' understanding and opinions after they read the bible. It's sad I think it's how the Lord want it to be done. If you read the church history all the way up to now, you'll see godly servants of the Lord broke from their origin church and start their own denomination, some turned out to be good and some became really bad, in short no perfect church. Well it's sad and hard to swallow to see so much division for someone who's new to the faith but it's the reality.

I personally believed God is in charge of this, until Jesus's 2nd coming it will stay what is it, what do you think?

(different groups or churches is challenging to a new believer, he might ask 'so which church/community should I go to?')
 
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Rhemajoy

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The church would be more orderly if it didn't have humans...that made me laugh out loud, probably because mo truer words could be spoken! Lol! I'm response to all the other "great" religions of the world having denominations, they don't have the Holy Spirit. What makes Christianity not fit under the world's religion umbrella is first and foremost, Christianity does not belong to this world and secondly Christianity is not a religion. Christianity is the only belief system that involves a personal relationship with a resurrected Savior who is fully God and fully man.
 
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SANTOSO

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So sorry for all the weird replies. I'm new at this site and not sure how it all works. I am considering writing a book on the reunification of the One Church. If I do this, would it be OK to quote you?
Beloved one, I also concern about oneness.
This is what we have heard:

“For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

How Jesus who is our peace, have made both who were far off and near both ONE ?

This is what we have heard:
“and that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So we heard BY THE CROSS, we who were far off and near, are reconciled.

Beloved ones, whether we were far off and near, let us crucify our old man.

Why ?
This is what we have heard:
“having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:15‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

So as to create in Jesus ONE NEW MAN from the two.

Beloved one, we are created to be ONE, to be ONE in Jesus as ONE NEW MAN.

Beloved one, do not consider the new man as fallen man but a man who was raised.

Beloved one, do not consider the church would be orderly without human. For only demons considered that the church are orderly without humans so that the church may not be one.

Beloved one, regardless denomination or non denominations, before the eyes of our hearts Jesus was clearly potrayed as crucified, that we should obey the truth, that we take the cross and follow Him, that we may be one in Christ Jesus.

To God be thanksgiving through Christ. Amen.
 
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The Liturgist

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After all isn't it your individual, personal relationship with God that matters above all, not what Denomination you belong to, which brings you into the Kingdom?

Not according to the Apostle Paul. Actually, the entire New Testament makes it clear salvation is through membership in the Church, and not having a “personal relationship with Jesus Christ.”

This is a common misconception however, and it is the result of irresponsible and theologically illiterate non-denominational, evangelical and pentecostal pastors preaching an exaggerated version of a theological movement that originated in the late 17th century called Pietism, which itself I don’t think is inherently bad, as there are different versions of Pietism, but some theologians more knowledgeable than myself do take a dim view of the entire movement.

As I see it, the problematic form of Pietism, ironically, was in part a reaction to the clash between Lutheranism and other Christian denominations in the far eastern regions of what was then Prussia and the Austrian Empire, now part of Poland and Ukraine, but Scandinavian Pietism and the highly sacramental Pietism of Leipzig were much different from Eastern European Pietism, and were actually positive insofar as they addressed a deficit in mystical theology among the Lutheran churches of that era.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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I really need to figure out how this forum works.

Make sure which forum section you are in. Second, review the last posting date (for this one, the last post was in 2020). Nothing more frustrating than finding a new post on a thread that died 10 years ago. We call that thread necromancy.

Thread_Necromancy_3038.jpg
 
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The Liturgist

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So sorry for all the weird replies. I'm new at this site and not sure how it all works. I am considering writing a book on the reunification of the One Church. If I do this, would it be OK to quote you?

This is a subject of great interest to me and if you are interested in Ecumenical Reconciliation and Reunification, I would love to work with you on it.
 
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GenemZ

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we have thousand of denominations due to division. Leaders have their 'own' understanding and opinions after they read the bible. It's sad I think it's how the Lord want it to be done. If you read the church history all the way up to now, you'll see godly servants of the Lord broke from their origin church and start their own denomination, some turned out to be good and some became really bad, in short no perfect church. Well it's sad and hard to swallow to see so much division for someone who's new to the faith but it's the reality.

I personally believed God is in charge of this, until Jesus's 2nd coming it will stay what is it, what do you think?

(different groups or churches is challenging to a new believer, he might ask 'so which church/community should I go to?')

God allows freedom of choice so that those who choose correctly can learn to remain free. And, to prove that the leading of the Spirit is reality.
 
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BNR32FAN

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we have thousand of denominations due to division. Leaders have their 'own' understanding and opinions after they read the bible. It's sad I think it's how the Lord want it to be done. If you read the church history all the way up to now, you'll see godly servants of the Lord broke from their origin church and start their own denomination, some turned out to be good and some became really bad, in short no perfect church. Well it's sad and hard to swallow to see so much division for someone who's new to the faith but it's the reality.

I personally believed God is in charge of this, until Jesus's 2nd coming it will stay what is it, what do you think?

(different groups or churches is challenging to a new believer, he might ask 'so which church/community should I go to?')

I often wonder if the reason for the division may be to promote more extensive study of His word. I don’t know but it has had this effect on my study. It’s caused me to look at the scriptures from different people’s perspectives and reevaluate them to get a more comprehensive understanding of what they are teaching.
 
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GenemZ

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I often wonder if the reason for the division may be to promote more extensive study of His word. I don’t know but it has had this effect on my study. It’s caused me to look at the scriptures from different people’s perspectives and reevaluate them to get a more comprehensive understanding of what they are teaching.

True.. Resistance to truth demands a greater understanding to overcome the resistance, and benefits those who are doing God's will.

Romans 8:28 is at work.

We know that God works all things together for good for the ones who love God, for those who are called according to his purpose.


.
 
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