Matthew 25 applying same standard?

[Rachel20]

Hello, I have a question about Matthew 25 verses 41 and 45. While I see the same standard in criteria being applied to both groups (visiting the sick and imprisoned, clothing the naked, taking the stranger in, ...), I don't see the same standard in judgement and was wondering what others think.

Simply from the way it's worded (maybe a translation issue?), it seems to me that the first group need only meet one criteria once, but the second group need meet all criteria each and every time (?)

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:41

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. Matthew 25:45

 

[Rachel20]

The Sheep and the Goats

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

[HTacianas]

Hello, I have a question about Matthew 25 verses 41 and 45. While I see the same standard in criteria being applied to both groups (visiting the sick and imprisoned, clothing the naked, taking the stranger in, ...), I don't see the same standard in judgement and was wondering what others think.

Simply from the way it's worded (maybe a translation issue?), it seems to me that the first group need only meet one criteria once, but the second group need meet all criteria each and every time (?)

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:41

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. Matthew 25:45

You're reading too much into it. One group are those who obeyed Jesus in doing good works and will be rewarded. The other group did not obey him and will be punished.

 

[Rachel20]

You're reading too much into it. One group are those who obeyed Jesus in doing good works and will be rewarded. The other group did not obey him and will be punished.

I may be, but it could be important if it's indicating judgement by grace vs by law. I would say that the saved have met the criteria already (by taking Christ in), so that it really isn't a passage on "good works" as most present it, but on grace vs law.

 

[HTacianas]

I may be, but it could be important if it's indicating judgement by grace vs by law. I would say that the saved have met the criteria already (by taking Christ in), so that it really isn't a passage on "good works" as most present it.

Well we're about to hit a sticking point. The "free grace gospel" that goes by any number of names these days is only a recent idea that has never been a part of Christianity. The dilemma you're in now is that you've heard one of those versions and are now seeing that it conflicts with the teachings of Christ. And you are correct in that conclusion. I'll leave you to resolve that on your own. But please understand that I went through that very same thing myself long ago.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The Sheep and the Goats

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Well, Rachel, I'm not seeing a problem. Faith is a concept that should be informed by the intertextual entirety of the New Testament and has to do with a whole person, whole life response to God in Christ. Faith isn't and never has been "only right belief."

No, faith is responding to God with all that He has given us the capacity to do. We see the same pattern of meaning appearing in the letter of James (... a letter that Luther didn't like), where James relates that for those of us who know what we should to according do God's will but neglect it, we sin.

I can't imagine making a claim to 'faith' yet spending an entire life believing in Christ but doing absolutely nothing for other people, starting with or own families. Perhaps this is also why we see Paul telling Timothy that those supposed believers who do nothing good for their own families...are worse that unbelievers.

Those are good questions, though, sister Rachel!

 

[Rachel20]

Well we're about to hit a sticking point. The "free grace gospel" that goes by any number of names these days is only a recent idea that has never been a part of Christianity. The dilemma you're in now is that you've heard one of those versions and are now seeing that it conflicts with the teachings of Christ. And you are correct in that conclusion. I'll leave you to resolve that on your own. But please understand that I went through that very same thing myself long ago.

I may be a dispensationalist, but I don't like to call it a "dispensation of grace". Grace has been around forever (but Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD). But 1 Peter 1:10-12 does indicate a difference in the times -

Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

 

[Rachel20]

I can't imagine making a claim to 'faith' yet spending an entire life believing in Christ but doing absolutely nothing for other people, starting with or own families.

I can't imagine that either. The one seems to follow from the other. Thanks!

 

[HTacianas]

I may be a dispensationalist, but I don't like to call it a "dispensation of grace". Grace has been around forever (but Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD). But 1 Peter 1:10-12 does indicate a difference in the times -

Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

There is in fact a difference in the times. That grace was extended for forgiveness of all previous sins. As Peter said, even those sins one could not be justified for under the law of Moses, see Acts 13:39. Baptism cleanses the baptized from all those previous sins. Afterwards one is to obey the commandments of Christ, including all those things spoken of in Matthew 25 that you pointed out.

 

[Rachel20]

There is in fact a difference in the times. That grace was extended for forgiveness of all previous sins. As Peter said, even those sins one could not be justified for under the law of Moses, see Acts 13:39. Baptism cleanses the baptized from all those previous sins. Afterwards one is to obey the commandments of Christ, including all those things spoken of in Matthew 25 that you pointed out.

I agree mostly with you here, but we can disagree on the rest.

I didn't really intend this to be a grace vs law or works debate, but whether anyone else sees the distinction I'm seeing in these two verses. It helps to think in terms of math sets to see it.

 

[Rachel20]

To give context, this question arises because of OPs like the below

Can this disprove christianity?

 

[Clare73]

The Sheep and the Goats

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Our works demonstrate out heart, and theirs failed.

Perhaps he uses visible works so they will actually see and cannot question why they are condemned.

 

[Rachel20]

How do you come up with singular and plural there?

Not understanding your question - can you explain more?

Oh wait, I think I do now. Give me a sec.

Look at these verses very closely. Inasmuch as the sheep "have done it unto one" (which could be 1/1000 lets say) verses the goat "Inasmuch as ye did it not to one" (which could imply they did it 999/1000 but failed on 1/1000). Is that what you meant?

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:41

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. Matthew 25:45

 

[Rachel20]

Maybe this would help. In the above, 'A' is the set of all the Lord's brethren, 'B' is a sheep, 'C' is a goat. The intersections of B with A is one brethren that B has done a good deed for. The intersection of C with A is all the brethren that C has done good deeds for. It can be said that B has done it for one (v41) and C has not done it for one, ie the one at the intersection of A and B (v45)

 

[Rachel20]

Most are treating the passage like above.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

View attachment 314308

Most are treating the passage like above.

Personally, I only see that Jesus is specifying Sheep and Goats; there's only two groups involved.

Those who 'do faith,' and those who 'don't really do faith' (i.e they really do none). This simple parsing Jesus makes fits the rest of what we find in the New Testament, I think. And I'm confident my take on what Jesus is saying in Chapter 25 of Matthew is fairly coherent in this assertion.

 

[d taylor]

Hello, I have a question about Matthew 25 verses 41 and 45. While I see the same standard in criteria being applied to both groups (visiting the sick and imprisoned, clothing the naked, taking the stranger in, ...), I don't see the same standard in judgement and was wondering what others think.

Simply from the way it's worded (maybe a translation issue?), it seems to me that the first group need only meet one criteria once, but the second group need meet all criteria each and every time (?)

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:41

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. Matthew 25:45

To really get into this, would require some typing and i am not into typing just long answers, etc.. but i am posting a link to two articles who give a good examination of Matthew 25 (sheep and the goats)

The Judgment of Matthew 25:31-46 – Grace Evangelical Society

Matthew 25:31-46: Salvation by Works? – Grace Evangelical Society​

 

[Clare73]

Not understanding your question - can you explain more?

Oh wait, I think I do now. Give me a sec.

Look at these verses very closely. Inasmuch as the sheep "have done it unto one" (which could be 1/1000 lets say) verses the goat "Inasmuch as ye did it not to one" (which could imply they did it 999/1000 but failed on 1/1000). Is that what you meant?

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:41

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. Matthew 25:45

whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

I understand it to mean that you will be judged by your responses to the sheep because
responses to the sheep are responses to Christ himself.

 

[dqhall]

Hello, I have a question about Matthew 25 verses 41 and 45. While I see the same standard in criteria being applied to both groups (visiting the sick and imprisoned, clothing the naked, taking the stranger in, ...), I don't see the same standard in judgement and was wondering what others think.

Simply from the way it's worded (maybe a translation issue?), it seems to me that the first group need only meet one criteria once, but the second group need meet all criteria each and every time (?)

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:41

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. Matthew 25:45

Remember the Good Samaritan? He rescued a man who had been beaten and robbed by bandits on the seventeen mile road between Jerusalem to Jericho. The Samaritan might have walked around the fallen victim, but he stopped and put him on his donkey and transported him to an inn. The Samaritan placed the wounded man in the care of the inn keeper and paid him. The Samaritan did this once, but God remembered him a long time. The Samaritan treated his neighbor the way he wanted to be treated.

Matthew 25 (WEB)
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will tell those on his right hand, ‘Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty and you gave me drink. I was a stranger and you took me in. 36 I was naked and you clothed me. I was sick and you visited me. I was in prison and you came to me.’

I read a book written by Aref Abu-Rabia, The Negev Bedouin and Livestock Rearing (Berg Oxford/Providence). There was a problem amongst the sheep and goats at the feeding trough: "...the goats ate faster and were more aggressive using their horns to dominate the troughs and push away the sheep." The herder had to separate the two groups and send one group at a time to the trough to keep the peace and prevent injury.

 

[Blade]

Hi the way I see this "and before him shall be gathered all the nations: and he shall separate them one from another," Christ returns and gathers the nations. Who are those people and what just happened? The great tribulation. Those are the ones He gathers and splits. To one He says "I never knew you" meaning they were never saved. I know Christ knows me and has said my name before the Father and all the angels rejoiced when He found me.. the same for ever other believer. That NAME YESHUA/JESUS saved or not always works The one speaking it has no power.. its His name above ever name.

Even today we can see false preachers prophets where people get healed. How can this be if they are false? Oh man the SONG PLAYING right now "forever Reign.. My heart will say no other name JESUS..JESUS" playing now.> WHAT are the odds! WOW Thank you Father.

Its that name..they come seeking JESUS.. He sees that..its their faith. The ones up there can be false yet in His mercy and grace He sees the heart and they WILL answer to Him..sorry.. so those people sheep and goats as I understand came out of the great Tribulation. I will not be there.