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A few questions for Protestants

BNR32FAN

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Let's make sure I have this right renniks, under this Protestant theology system you adhere too, regardless or impressive as any Protestant Pastor's, or televangelist scholarly background,,, be it the late Billy Graham, or todays Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer, etc. his/her credentials mean absolutely nothing when it comes to having an authoritative interpretation of Scripture. Does that sound about right?

If you agree, (which I think you do, for you did say..."No one interprets scripture perfectly") in Protestantism, the interpretation of any person who can read the Bible is just as valid, just as authoritative, as the interpretation of any other person who reads the bible, right?

IOW, my interpretations of the Bible, the Catholic Church's interpretation of the bible, and your interpretations of the Bible, are just as valid and just as authoritative as the late Billy Graham, or todays Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer, etc. your pastor's interpretations. right?

So, under your Protestant theological belief system, there is no way to know for sure what is or is not true when it comes to the Christian faith and the Bible. Because without an infallible person or institution, then every single interpretation of the Bible done by anyone anywhere, carries with it the possibility of being wrong. There can be no such thing as "absolute assurance" of anything in Protestantism. Does that sound about right?

Have a Blessed Day!

Well let’s not forget that the Catholic Church doesn’t exactly agree on doctrine as well. If they did they would be in communion with one another.
 
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rturner76

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And the original church of the people is older than the Institution.
THe original church of the people was founded from Jerusalem through Athens, Rome, and Ethiopia. All those and more, founded by the 12 Apostles and still standing today.
 
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YeshuaFan

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I think some Protestants are "Paulians" in their theology but Paul was the only one that didn't travel with Jesus. From him is where they get "faith alone" when all of the other APostles preach faith and obedience. You have to temper Paul with the other writers to get the full picture.

The thing is that the CHurch is actually older than the Bible and it was that original CHurch that voted for the Biblical Cannon that exists today (minus a few books the Protestants tossed out of the Bible).

Protestant churches have made changes to the faith but 90% of their theologies are based on Catholic dogma. So why not just go to the source?
The OT canon was fixed before the time of Christ, and the entire NT canon was written down by end of the first century, and Rome did not exist as the church until papacy, much later in 6/7 century!
 
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Trent stated that if any hold to imputed righteousness to us thru faith alone in work and person of Christ was anathema, and yet that is very heart of Pauline Justification!

You haven’t described Pauline justification, but a Lutheran interpretation of Paul’s epistles. What this interpretation neglects is the need for repentance. That is the error that Trent addresses. Luther inserted the word alone next to Faith in Paul’s epistle. It does not appear in the text.
James 2 says that we are justified by works and not faith alone, and we can see what this means in modern Christianity. In the Protestant church’s I was in, they told me to just believe in Jesus and tell people that you are a Christian and you are saved. They did not stress repentance and holiness, and if someone did preach that, they were called legalistic or a hellfire and brimstone preacher
I was always told that you can never live free from sin, but the Bible doesn’t teach that.
Why does Trent anathematize faith alone? Because the Bible does. 1 Corinthians 13 says that if I have faith as to move mountains (by definition faith alone) and have not Charity, I am nothing. In the Protestant Churches I have attended, they preached forgiveness without repentance. They accuse Trent of preaching a works based gospel, but that is not true as Canon 1 states If anyone says that a man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.
What does Jesus say? Not everyone that says to Me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but those that DO the will of My Father.
Also, if any man come after Me, first let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow Me
Repentance is required to receive grace.

True Pauline justification says faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Rom 10:17. We need to preach repentance in order for people to ask for grace. What do your churches preach? Do you preach for people to make an act of faith, and then they receive grace? Or do you preach repentance to receive grace?

Pauline justification is stated in Ephesians 2:8-10 states For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man may glory. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them. That is what the Catholic Church teaches.
There are seven heavenly virtues, Faith, Hope, Charity, Prudence, Justice, Temperance, Fortitude. The first three are theological in that they come from God Alone, by grace Alone.
Faith is a gift from God and not a prerequisite to receive grace. Grace is a prerequisite to receive Faith, else Faith is a work, and faith is no good alone as 1Cor13 says if I have faith as to move mountains, but have not Charity, I am nothing.
Jesus says that unless you are born of water and the spirit you cannot see the kingdom of God. We receive the three theological virtues in the waters of regeneration or baptism. Jesus was baptized by John. He commands us to be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. There is no excuse for us not to be baptized, if we are physically able.
When you receive the three theological virtues, you are born again. Faith in God to know that He is and is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. Hope that He will fulfill His promises and cleanse you of all unrighteousness, not just cover them and leave you stuck in sin, but actually set you free from sin, and Charity where you love God with your whole heart, whole mind and whole soul. Since He desires obedience rather than sacrifice, you actually look for new ways to obey Him. You do not grumble and say God’s ways are too hard, or I can never do it, and you love your neighbor as yourself. You don’t tickle your neighbors ears to get there approval. Everything is done out of love
Once you have the three theological virtues, you are a babe in Christ, and you are ready to begin work on the four Cardinal virtues of Prudence, Justice, Temperance and Fortitude. Just like going to a gym, these four virtues get stronger with exercise and are part of Training in Righteousness. Prudence requires study so you know what is right and to do it. Justice is giving others their due, and the Bible says to esteem all others as better than yourself and whoever is greater must be your servant. We need to look for all ways to be a servant to others up to the point of sin. It does no one any good to sin for them. Temperance regulates our physical appetites. Our Love is for God, and not for the pleasures of our body.
Fortitude is courage to do all these things despite opposition. Any one that lives righteously in Christ will suffer persecution, as Christ was persecuted to death and a servant is not greater than his master.

hope this helps, as the Catholic Church does not teach another gospel or a gospel of works. Salvation comes from God alone, by grace alone, and this grace is efficacious. I am but dust and a worm, but He that is mighty has done great things for me
 
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rturner76

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The OT canon was fixed before the time of Christ, and the entire NT canon was written down by end of the first century, and Rome did not exist as the church until papacy, much later in 6/7 century!
Rome existed when St Peter set up the Church there. Like I say, the same was done all over the known world. Much of the NT was written by 100 AD but the Canon was not decided until the the late 300s. Before that there were many texts that the CHurch circulated. they finally decided on what would be called the New Testament at The councils of Hippo (393) and the council of Carthage in 397. Ratified by Pope Innocent I in 405.

Many books were read out in Mass before that but the final canon was decided and nothing has been added to it since then most Protestant churches threw out a few books that I guess they didn't like or agree with. The Catholic Church (Orthodox and Roman) has stayed true to the original list of books.

I think that is why the OP has its questions.

Who gave who the authority to usurp the Church's teachings? It's just random people who studied Catholic theology and changed what they didn't like. Who gave them that authority? They took the authority for themselves. That is why there is no continuity in Protestantism. Each of the thousand different churches has its own spin on the Catholic religion. Who's spin is the right one? Calvin? Luther? Arminius? Benny Hinn? Oral Roberts? Who knows? They each have their own way. How can we know who really had the Holy Spirit when they started their own personal church?
 
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Buzzard3

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Trent stated that if any hold to imputed righteousness to us thru faith alone in work and person of Christ was anathema, and yet that is very heart of Pauline Justification!
Paul did not preach salvation through faith alone, but through faith and obedience (aka "works"). For example, he warns believers in Gal 5 and 1Cor 6 that their sins (aka "works) can result in them not inheriting the kingdom of heaven. Paul agree with James ... that "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone".
 
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Buzzard3

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Well let’s not forget that the Catholic Church doesn’t exactly agree on doctrine as well. If they did they would be in communion with one another.
Which doctrine don't Catholics agree on?
 
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Buzzard3

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I think some Protestants are "Paulians" in their theology but Paul was the only one that didn't travel with Jesus. From him is where they get "faith alone" when all of the other APostles preach faith and obedience. You have to temper Paul with the other writers to get the full picture.

The thing is that the CHurch is actually older than the Bible and it was that original CHurch that voted for the Biblical Cannon that exists today (minus a few books the Protestants tossed out of the Bible).

Protestant churches have made changes to the faith but 90% of their theologies are based on Catholic dogma. So why not just go to the source?
How on earth did Protestants come up with the myth that Paul preached salvation through "faith alone"?

Paul clearly preached salvation through faith and obedience (aka "works"). For example, he warns believers in Gal 5 and 1Cor 6 that their sins (aka "works) can result in them not inheriting the kingdom of heaven. So Paul agree with James ... that "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone".
 
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Buzzard3

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the entire NT canon was written down by end of the first century
You've overlooked the fact that there were a number of NT "scriptures" doing the rounds that were thought by some to be inspired but actually weren't.
and Rome did not exist as the church until papacy, much later in 6/7 century!
The canon of the Bible was decided in the 4th century ... by whom?
 
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BobRyan

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There is only one gospel according to Jesus, the Gospel of the Kingdom ..

Agreed

Gal 1:6-9 only one Gospel
Gal 3:8 -- that Gospel was preached to Abraham
Jer 31:31-33 the one and only Gospel covenant -- Heb 8:6-12
 
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Buzzard3

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You haven’t described Pauline justification, but a Lutheran interpretation of Paul’s epistles. What this interpretation neglects is the need for repentance. That is the error that Trent addresses. Luther inserted the word alone next to Faith in Paul’s epistle. It does not appear in the text.
Paul warns believers in Gal 5 and 1Cor 6 that their sins (aka "works) can result in them not inheriting the kingdom of heaven ... so much for Paul preaching salvation through faith alone!
 
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BobRyan

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Paul warns believers in Gal 5 and 1Cor 6 that their sins (aka "works) can result in them not inheriting the kingdom of heaven

Agreed.

He preached this about past justification

Rom 5
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we also have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we celebrate in hope of the glory of God.

Rom 3:
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law none of mankind will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes knowledge of sin.

21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 but it is the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in God’s merciful restraint He let the sins previously committed go unpunished; 26 for the demonstration, that is, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27 Where then is boasting? It has been excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.​


And he also preached this - about future justification:

Rom 2:
11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a violator of the Law, your circumcision has turned into uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

in keeping with James 2
17 In the same way, faith also, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to acknowledge, you foolish person, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was our father Abraham not justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was Rahab the prostitute not justified by works also when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.​

Matt 7:

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; leave Me, you who practice lawlessness.’​
 
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