Good tidings of great joy, which shall be to SOME people?

[Saint Steven]

One of my faves you might consider adding to your list is Galatians 1:4-5, which the KJV renders thus:

Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world [aionos], according to the will of God and our Father: To whom be glory for ever [aionas] and ever [aionon]. Amen.

Thanks.
That sounds so familiar. I thought it was already there. I will add to the list. Three translations below for comparison.

Galatians 1:4-5 NRSV
who gave himself for our sins to set us free from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

Galatians 1:4-5 NIV
who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[Fervent]

There is no duration in eternity. The sense in Mat 25:46 is to 'wake up to a world of pain or a world of life'. You can't seriously interpret passages like Matthew 5:22 as stepping up the penalty for 'Thou fool' from a maximum '39 lashes' to 'eternity in boiling oil' for a single count of 'Raca!'. Note Acts 4 for instance where the Sanhedrin Jews want to correctively punish Peter and John.

You sure like arguing against things no one has seriously proposed. And while it's fair to say there is no duration, the point remains the same. If the zoe in aionios zoe does not end then neither the kolasis in aionios kolasis. They're symmetrically placed so to deny the one is to deny the other. It's almost fair to read the phrases as you are, but the age/world in question is terminal. There is no age/world to follow nor implication that its possible to move from one to the other.

 

[Fervent]

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

aion and aionios are not the same.

 

[Hmm]

The noun is kolasis, aionios is an indefinite, but limited timeframe, or figuratively 'the next world'. Where we get the word 'eon'.

So there's nothing in aionios that would turn kolasis into timoria.

Yes. Here's a good explanation of these three important words. It's quite long but the words are complex and certainly can't be reduced to "eternal torture" as is pushed by the Team Hell sales reps.:

The word for punishment is kolasis. The word was originally a gardening word, and its original meaning was pruning trees. In Greek there are two words for punishment, timoria and kolasis, and there is a quite definite distinction between them. Aristotle defines the difference; kolasis is for the sake of the one who suffers it; timoria is for the sake of the one who inflicts it. Plato says that no one punishes (kolazei) simply because he has done wrong - that would be to take unreasonable vengeance (timoreitai). We punish (kolazei) a wrong-doer in order that he may not do wrong again (Protagoras 323 E). Clement of Alexandria (Stromateis 4.24; 7.16) defines kolasis as pure discipline, and timoria as the return of evil for evil. Aulus Gellius says that kolasis is given that a man may be corrected; timoria is given that dignity and authority may be vindicated (The Attic Nights7.14). The difference is quite clear in Greek and it is always observed. Timoria is retributive punishment. Kolasis is always given to amend and to cure.
“The word aionios is difficult to translate. It is used in the Old Testament* to describe Israel’s possession of the holy land (Genesis 17.8; 48.4); Aaron’s priesthood (Numbers 25,13); regulations about blood in the sacrifices and about the day of atonement (Leviticus 3.17; 16.34); great mountains and hills (Habakkuk 3.6). Now aion literally means an age, and aionios is literally age-long. In all the cases we have quoted the translation is everlasting or for ever, but in every case the thing described is a human thing, and will sometime come to an end. In every case aionios means lasting for a very long time; it can even mean lasting as long as the present world lasts; but it does not mean lasting for ever and ever throughout eternity.
“The Greek usage of aionios is even more suggestive. Plato in the Laws (10.12) says that body and soul are indestructible (anolethron), but they are not eternal (aionios) like the gods. In the Timaeus he says that time as we know it in this world is formed on the model of the nature which is aionios, eternal. The fact is that in Greek aionios can properly only describe that which is divine; in the true sense of the term only God is aionios. Aionios kolasis is therefore the disciplinary punishment, designed for the cure of men, which may last throughout many ages, and which only God can give.
“I can therefore be seen that the phrase in Matthew 25.46 does not commit us to a doctrine of eternal punishment in the sense in which it is usually taken. It may well describe a disciplinary, curative punishment, and it certainly describes the punishment which only God can inflict.”

~William Barclay, The Apostle's Creed, pg 189-190

 

[rjs330]

The noun is kolasis, aionios is an indefinite, but limited timeframe, or figuratively 'the next world'. Where we get the word 'eon'.

So there's nothing in aionios that would turn kolasis into timoria.

Why you guys think that divine punishment is an end in itself beats me. It conveys an image of God as like the sadistic Roman soldiers in Passion of the Christ flailing and scourging away to their hearts' content. No, Jesus doesn't go through hell and death just so God can smite the lost forever. What an appallingly fallen vision of deity.

An appeal to human logic does not apply to God. Humans are fallible in their judgement. God is not.

 

[rjs330]

Not His will, perhaps, but it's pretty hard to save those who don't need it. So the absolute necessity of salvation was in God's plan from the outset. As all things proceed from Him, so to Him shall all return.

That makes no sense. If we cannot overcome the will of God as you say. Then you have to say it was the will of God that the angles and man sin so he can save man by sacrificing his son. Is that what you are saying?

 

[rjs330]

Foreknowing that man isn't up to it without Christ.

Yes, but then you would have to claim that it was God's will that man sinned. If we have to trust what you say about God's will.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Aionios kolasis is therefore the disciplinary punishment, designed for the cure of men, which may last throughout many ages, and which only God can give.

The only quibble I have is with 'throughout many ages'. I'd have thought it could only mean many ages if it was the 'aions of the aions'-type formulation that generally is translated 'forever and ever'.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

You sure like arguing against things no one has seriously proposed.

Thanks, it's shadow wrestling.

If the zoe in aionios zoe does not end then neither the kolasis in aionios kolasis.

Again, I don't think you can have duration in eternity. So the aionios here denotes something other than a timescale. It's more like 'nextworldly' life/ chastisement.

It's almost fair to read the phrases as you are, but the age/world in question is terminal. There is no age/world to follow nor implication that its possible to move from one to the other.

Yes, there's one path for the sheep and another for the goats, but Jesus leaves final destination open, which as we read in 1 Cor 15 28 (the most futuristic teaching in the Bible?), all creation will submit to Christ and God will eventually be all in all. This fulfills the Koreshic covenant (Isaiah 45:23), which is reiterated twice in the NT with reference to Christ as the means.

Now I know we disagree on the meaning and scope of those passages, but I'm just explaining a universalist reading.

Equally, I suggest Matt 25:46 is not sufficiently certain due to its idiomatic nature in its meaning for us today to be of much use in supporting ECT doctrine.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

An appeal to human logic does not apply to God. Humans are fallible in their judgement. God is not.

I'd disagree - it's about trustworthiness. The Word must be trustworthy and true. I find it difficult to see how a God who is love on the one hand and tortures his errant creatures forever on the other can ever be trusted. It's like Matthew 5:22 I mentioned above, where suddenly for a flash of anger at a brother I might be looking down the barrel of eternal torment.

I accept that perishing is a real danger for the unbeliever/ sinner, and that an age of correction ought to be a fearful prospect for everyone, but sorry I just can't see how positing a good God who punishes forever is not a classic instance of putting dark for light.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

That makes no sense. If we cannot overcome the will of God as you say. Then you have to say it was the will of God that the angles and man sin so he can save man by sacrificing his son. Is that what you are saying?

This is a mystery, ultimately God wants man to choose freely to love and obey Him. This is impossible for Adamic man, but through the spirit and work of Christ we may be reconciled, having known good and evil, and receiving the knowledge that God is the source of all value and is absolutely trustworthy to save us from evil.

Is that also your view?

 

[Fervent]

Thanks, it's shadow wrestling.



Again, I don't think you can have duration in eternity. So the aionios here suggests something other than a timescale. It's more like 'nextworldly' life/ chastisement.



Yes, there's one path for the sheep and another for the goats, but Jesus leaves final destination open, which as we read in 1 Cor 15 28 (the most futuristic teaching in the Bible?), all creation will submit to Christ and God will eventually be all in all. This fulfills the Koreshic covenant (Isaiah 45:23), which is reiterated twice in the NT with reference to Christ as the means.

Now I know we disagree on the meaning and scope of those passages, but I'm just explaining a universalist reading.

Equally, I suggest Matt 25:46 is not sufficiently certain due to its idiomatic nature in its meaning for us today to be of much use in supporting ECT doctrine.

First, my opposition isn't on a ECT/annihilationist presupposition. I'm simply worried about what the text says, and that's it. You mention that there is no duration, but the issue isn't a matter of duration but termination. Given that we're speaking of eternity you're right it doesn't entirely make sense to speak of duration. But these are offered side by side in a passage that is entirely eschatological, so it is natural to read them as terminal.

1 Cor 15 only reads universally if we presuppose it from the outset, but given that Paul earlier speaks of damnation and makes a clear delineation between those in communion with Christ and those in the world within 1 Corinthians it is entirely unlikely that he somehow forgot teaching that and took on a universalist ethic. Rendering verses in isolation without dealing with the entire work they appear in is sure to end up with improper conclusions.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

First, my opposition isn't on a ECT/annihilationist presupposition. I'm simply worried about what the text says, and that's it. You mention that there is no duration, but the issue isn't a matter of duration but termination. Given that we're speaking of eternity you're right it doesn't entirely make sense to speak of duration. But these are offered side by side in a passage that is entirely eschatological, so it is natural to read them as terminal.

Okay, but I'd say the literature explaining the meaning of 'kolasin' shows that it's corrective punishment. If that's accepted, it follows that the punishment cannot be endless.

1 Cor 15 only reads universally if we presuppose it from the outset, but given that Paul earlier speaks of damnation and makes a clear delineation between those in communion with Christ and those in the world within 1 Corinthians it is entirely unlikely that he somehow forgot teaching that and took on a universalist ethic. Rendering verses in isolation without dealing with the entire work they appear in is sure to end up with improper conclusions.

I suggested that 1 Cor 15 28 reads in the context of the chapter itself (good news for all, we are all given resurrection bodies raised in honour etc), and in the context of the overarching revelation as unfolding throughout scripture (ie God's salvation of all/ the nations).

A lot of folks have an unconscious bias against UR readings, even though there are many many scriptures explicitly in support of God's plan and promise to save 'all the nations'.

 

[Fervent]

Okay, but I'd say the literature explaining the meaning of 'kolasin' shows that it's corrective punishment. If that's accepted, it follows that the punishment cannot be endless.

And I'd say the claim is unconvincing, especially since it almost exclusively relies on secular literature. Surveys that look to religious contexts the corrective aspect disappears instead being primarily characterized by a lack of malice.

I suggested that 1 Cor 15 28 reads in the context of the chapter itself (good news for all, we are all given resurrection bodies raised in honour etc), and in the context of the overarching revelation as unfolding throughout scripture (ie God's salvation of all/ the nations).

A lot of folks have an unconscious bias against UR readings, even though there are many many scriptures explicitly in support of God's plan and promise to save 'all the nations'.

Context goes beyond a single chapter especially when the document is as short as the epistles. As for your mentioon of "all the nations" that has to be understood within the historic context as all that is saying is that salvation extended beyond the nation of Israel as a corporate body.

 

[misput]

And I'd say the claim is unconvincing, especially since it almost exclusively relies on secular literature. Surveys that look to religious contexts the corrective aspect disappears instead being primarily characterized by a lack of malice.




Context goes beyond a single chapter especially when the document is as short as the epistles. As for your mentioon of "all the nations" that has to be understood within the historic context as all that is saying is that salvation extended beyond the nation of Israel as a corporate body.

Right, salvation is and always has been individual. Interesting discussion but honestly, how many do you think even think about the question, let alone the answer?

 

[rjs330]

STIPULATES THAT ALL WILL BELIEVE, whether is this life or in the world to come. All will be resurrected, and those judged will be purified (born again) and need to wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb (sanctified) in order to be set right/ restored to God's image.

I understand that's what you believe. But that is not what the bible says. Neither Christ nor the apostles say you can believe for salvation after death. It has to be done before.

 

[rjs330]

Again, you can't rebirth yourself. Being born of your mother or being born again of the Spirit is not a personal choice or an act of human will.

Thats not what the Bible says.

And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:13-15 Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 20:13-15 - American Standard Version

But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.and there shall in no wise enter into it anything unclean, or he that maketh an abomination and a lie: but only they that are written in the Lamb’s book of life. - Revelation 21:8,27 Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 21:8, Revelation 21:27 - American Standard Version

Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, who took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.And five of them were foolish, and five were wise.For the foolish, when they took their lamps, took no oil with them:but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.Now while the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.But at midnight there is a cry, Behold, the bridegroom! Come ye forth to meet him.Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are going out.But the wise answered, saying, Peradventure there will not be enough for us and you: go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.And while they went away to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage feast: and the door was shut.Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.Watch therefore, for ye know not the day nor the hour.For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not, even that which he hath shall be taken away.And cast ye out the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels: - Matthew 25:1-13,29-30,41 Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 25:1-13, Matthew 25:29-30, Matthew 25:41 - American Standard Version

There is no scripture that says salvation is offered after death. It is appointed once for man to die and then the judgement.

 

[rjs330]

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

Yes it does. As I pointed out earlier context determines what the word refers to. To say it never does is yo say that there is no such thing as eternal life. We are only in heaven for a certain duration. We are only saved for a certain period of time. Is that what the UR people believe?

 

[rjs330]

That's what it is, brainwashing with satanic doctrine. It's the theology of the flesh, self-willed salvation, as opposed to surrender in the spirit. ECT and the other one are really Adamic theology, pagan or Jewish theology at best, because they implicitly posit Adam's victory over Christ.



Spiritual extortion, gaslighting, guilt-tripping and general psychological manipulation, this garbled idea that YOU are born a sinner, YOU killed Jesus Christ, YOU deserve to die and suffer forever, because YOU deny God after His only begotten son paid the ultimate price for YOU...but WE have the solution, a way out: only believe (and give generously). Yikes, what a travesty.

Wait you don't believe we are born sinners either. So we can live sinless life if we just make the right choices?

 

[rjs330]

That's an interesting one, at first I thought you might have highlighted the wrong word, and that aion was 'world', but I see it is correct - world here is kosmou/ cosmos. This absolutely shows how variable the use of aionion is and how unsafe it is to build a doctrine of eternity upon.

One of my faves you might consider adding to your list is Galatians 1:4-5, which the KJV renders thus:

Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world [aionos], according to the will of God and our Father: To whom be glory for ever [aionas] and ever [aionon]. Amen.

Another perfect verse to describe the word ainois. It's meaning is determined by context. Present evil world is temporary. But God's glory is everlasting and has no end.

To say ainois does not ever mean forever or eternal is gas lighting now on the highest order.