A few questions for Protestants

[Fidelibus]

The bible has final authority, but in those group that I listed here, its their leaders that trump over the scriptures!

Where in the bible does the bible say it "has the final authority?"

 

[YeshuaFan]

I didn't see your list. But I agree God's Word is final authority. We are to respect our leaders, but still check them out in God's Word for ourselves.

The phrase Sola Scriptura (Scripture only) comes from the Protestant Reformers. So of course the Catholic leaders do not agree nor like that idea. And it was bad enough even in Protestant Britain when they had Catholics trying to take over and persecuted many of the saints.

However, even though the Reformers believed the pope in their day was the Antichrist, the prophecy was not fulfilled, and so their Protestant followers should have learned that lesson. Yet still today, there is a movement among the Protestant Church that still believes the pope is the Antichrist.

My list included Mormons, JW, Sda and Rome

 

[YeshuaFan]

Where in the bible does the bible say it "has the final authority?"

Jesus Himself always appealed to the scriptures Himself, "it is written"

 

[Fidelibus]

Jesus Himself always appealed to the scriptures Himself, "it is written"

That's not what I asked. I ask where in the bible does the bible say it is the final authority?

 

[timothyu]

That's not what I asked. I ask where in the bible does the bible say it is the final authority?

Are you saying our Bible was assembled as a tool of a human institution seeking to command in the same way the Jewish priests misused their sacred scripture?

 

[Fidelibus]

Are you saying our Bible was assembled as a tool of a human institution seeking to command in the same way the Jewish priests misused their sacred scripture?

On post 981, you said the bible has the final authority. So, I am asking you, a believer of the bible alone, where in the bible does it say the bible has the final authority? The book, chapter and verse please.

 

[timothyu]

. So, I am asking you, a believer of the bible alone, where in the bible does it say the bible has the final authority? The book, chapter and verse please.

Look at any of the comments of Jesus. It's not about a human compiled book, or even the scripture within. It is about the words of God which Jesus said were truth (not man's interpretation of them). That is the final authourity, as is God, not some makeshift religion of man seeking world domination.

 

[renniks]

So renniks, one would think, out of the relatively brief existence of Protestantism in the two thousand plus years of Christianity, there would be some sort of writings, documentation or teachings of when, who, and how any one of the many splinter churches/sects of Protestantism decided what the early reformation fathers believed (along with the many Protestant denominations today) about baptism was/is in error, and what you believe today is not.

I'm sure there's many writings to that effect, just like there are many showing the schisms in the Catholic Church, the differences of opinion among leaders.
A little research should lead you to both.
I had a book from the library once that went back into different views theology from very early on, and all the different disagreements. I think I read about half of it, it was not easy reading. But I can't remember the title now.

 

[renniks]

Nowhere in my research of this Synod, did I see the subject of Baptism.

You might also want to study the teaching of the anabaptist movement.

 

[YeshuaFan]

On post 981, you said the bible has the final authority. So, I am asking you, a believer of the bible alone, where in the bible does it say the bible has the final authority? The book, chapter and verse please.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

 

[Fidelibus]

2 Timothy 3:16-17

And there it is! I knew these passages would make an appearance eventually.

But you have a few problems using them in your argument as the bible having the final authority. First off, 2 Tim. 3:16, does not speak of the N. T. at all. The two verses preceding 2 Tim. 3:16 say:

But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

This passage does not refer to the N. T. In fact, none of the N. T. books had been written when Timothy was a child. Claiming this verse as authentication for a book that had not been written yet goes far beyond what the text claims.

Secondly, 2 Tim. 3:16 does not claim Scripture to be the sole authority as a rule of faith for Christians. The Bible teaches justification by faith, and as a Catholic, I believe it 100%. However though, I do not believe in justification by faith alone, as Protestants do. (see Jas.2:24 Now, take close notice where there is no "sola" in 2 Tim. 3:16 either. The passage never claims Scripture to be the sole authority for a rule of faith. James 1:4 illustrates the problem for you further.

"And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing."

Thirdly, the Bible teaches that oral Tradition is equal to Scripture. It is silent when it comes to sola scriptura, but it is remarkably clear in teaching that oral Tradition is just as much the word of God as Scripture is. In what most scholars believe was the first book written in the N. T. Paul said in 1 Thess.2:13:

And we also thank God . . . that when you received the word of God which you "heard from us," you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God.

Also, according to Paul, (2 Thess.2:15) the "spoken" words of the apostles were the word of God!

So, then, brethren stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

And lastly, 2 Tim. 3:16 is specifically addressed to members of the hierarchy. It is a pastoral epistle, written to a young bishop Paul had ordained. This title was used in the O. T. to describe those consecrated to the service of God (Deut. 33:1; 1 Sam. 2:27; 1 Kgs. 12:22). Not only does the text not say the bible has the final authority, but Paul’s exhortation for Timothy to study the word of God is in the context of an exhortation to “preach the word” (orally) as a minister of Christ.

I knew that no one wouldn't be able to post a verse from the bible that said "the bible has the final authority" because none exist, and for you to use these passages (2 Tim.3:16-17) to prove the bible has the final authority, (sola scriptura) is.... if I were to borrow a phrase from Paul, is going far “beyond what is written” (1 Cor. 4:6).

Have a Blessed Day!

 

[Buzzard3]

Where in the bible does the bible say it "has the final authority?"

It might be the "Foreword", that often goes unread.

 

[Buzzard3]

Jesus Himself always appealed to the scriptures Himself, "it is written"

So the OT is the final authority?

 

[Buzzard3]

BTW, the unity of the Catholic church is kind of hard to defend when they had the first church split in the early 1000's

Nevertheless there are more than 1 billion Catholics.

 

[Buzzard3]

the Council doesn't exist today. All those people died a long time ago

Yes, they probably are all deceased by now, but the authority behind that Council still exists here on earth. It's the same authority that provided your Bible.

 

[YeshuaFan]

And there it is! I knew these passages would make an appearance eventually.

But you have a few problems using them in your argument as the bible having the final authority. First off, 2 Tim. 3:16, does not speak of the N. T. at all. The two verses preceding 2 Tim. 3:16 say:



This passage does not refer to the N. T. In fact, none of the N. T. books had been written when Timothy was a child. Claiming this verse as authentication for a book that had not been written yet goes far beyond what the text claims.

Secondly, 2 Tim. 3:16 does not claim Scripture to be the sole authority as a rule of faith for Christians. The Bible teaches justification by faith, and as a Catholic, I believe it 100%. However though, I do not believe in justification by faith alone, as Protestants do. (see Jas.2:24 Now, take close notice where there is no "sola" in 2 Tim. 3:16 either. The passage never claims Scripture to be the sole authority for a rule of faith. James 1:4 illustrates the problem for you further.



Thirdly, the Bible teaches that oral Tradition is equal to Scripture. It is silent when it comes to sola scriptura, but it is remarkably clear in teaching that oral Tradition is just as much the word of God as Scripture is. In what most scholars believe was the first book written in the N. T. Paul said in 1 Thess.2:13:

Also, according to Paul, (2 Thess.2:15) the "spoken" words of the apostles were the word of God!



And lastly, 2 Tim. 3:16 is specifically addressed to members of the hierarchy. It is a pastoral epistle, written to a young bishop Paul had ordained. This title was used in the O. T. to describe those consecrated to the service of God (Deut. 33:1; 1 Sam. 2:27; 1 Kgs. 12:22). Not only does the text not say the bible has the final authority, but Paul’s exhortation for Timothy to study the word of God is in the context of an exhortation to “preach the word” (orally) as a minister of Christ.

I knew that no one wouldn't be able to post a verse from the bible that said "the bible has the final authority" because none exist, and for you to use these passages (2 Tim.3:16-17) to prove the bible has the final authority, (sola scriptura) is.... if I were to borrow a phrase from Paul, is going far “beyond what is written” (1 Cor. 4:6).

Have a Blessed Day!

The "oral tradition" was from the Apostles, as they had the inspiration to both speak and write down scriptures truths, but all of that creased happened once canon was completed!

 

[A_Thinker]

On post 981, you said the bible has the final authority. So, I am asking you, a believer of the bible alone, where in the bible does it say the bible has the final authority? The book, chapter and verse please.

1 Corinthians 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a sense transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn through us not to regard men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

 

[renniks]

Yes, they probably are all deceased by now, but the authority behind that Council still exists here on earth. It's the same authority that provided your Bible.

Not seeing it. The authority that gave us the Bible was the Holy Spirit.

 

[Fidelibus]

1 Corinthians 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a sense transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn through us not to regard men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

I'm sorry, but where in this passage does it say the bible has the final authority?

 

[A_Thinker]

I'm sorry, but where in this passage does it say the bible has the final authority?

The text says not to regard any man above what is written.

The NIV puts it this way ...

Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other.