Can Amil prove with Scripture that the beast is in the pit during the thousand years?

[eclipsenow]

My point is to ignore the last 2 millenia of human theology, science, and philosophy. The emphasis is on human understanding. This part of 2 Thessalonians 2:

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first.... For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

Always check everything against God's word, yes.
Never inhale a catechism without studying its claims, yes.
But throw out the best and brightest thoughts about the bible that us mere mortals might have to reinvent all over again? Give up the theological terms that are a short-hand for the big thoughts in the bible! For goodness sake, WHY?

This mystery of iniquity is to let humans think they have full understanding over the millennia.

You completely misunderstand how the scientific method developed from Christians. It was precisely because we knew human beings are fallen in all our aspects, from our moral character through to our willpower through to our capacity for self-deception and misunderstanding the world, that the empirical method was born.

There is knowledge from God. It is found in His Word.

There is also knowledge from God that is found in his World.
Both are important.

John Dickson is a friend and client of ours.

This is his apologetics podcast.

You should listen to these episodes on Christianity and science.
He's a top dude - and interviews the best of the best.

You searched for science - Undeceptions

Try this one:
Science can explain everything, right? - Undeceptions

And this one:
Charity, Science and other Christian inventions - Undeceptions

Listen to them while doing housework. It will improve your mind, and make the housework less boring and horrible.

 

[Earburner]

My point is to ignore the last 2 millenia of human theology, science, and philosophy. The emphasis is on human understanding. This part of 2 Thessalonians 2:

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first.... For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

This mystery of iniquity is to let humans think they have full understanding over the millennia. That is why it is called a deception. The point is that Satan has aways pushed humans to gain more knowledge.

There is knowledge from God. It is found in His Word. Anything that takes us away from God's Word, yes, takes us in the opposite direction. A deception is supposed to look good and above board. Science does not have to be evil to be deception. Remember that knowledge gained gives both good and evil?

Tim, you just answered your own question to my post #293 about the creation of A&E, being created in innocence, which is to have no knowledge of evil or good.

 

[Timtofly]

Tim, you just answered your own question to my post #293 about the creation of A&E, being created in innocence, which is to have no knowledge of evil or good.

They were perfect without sin nor a sin nature. If that is your definition of innocent. There was literally no death period in all of creation until Adam disobeyed God. Adam and Eve physically died that instant and went from permanent incorruptible physical bodies to dead corruptible physical bodies. Not only did they gain the knowledge about death, but also experienced that knowledge empirically. The first "scientific test" was an act of disobedience to God.

 

[eclipsenow]

They were perfect without sin nor a sin nature. If that is your definition of innocent. There was literally no death period in all of creation until Adam disobeyed God. Adam and Eve physically died that instant and went from permanent incorruptible physical bodies to dead corruptible physical bodies. Not only did they gain the knowledge about death, but also experienced that knowledge empirically. The first "scientific test" was an act of disobedience to God.

"Permanent incorruptible" goes against the thrust of the text.
They needed the Tree of Life.
Once banished from that, they were mortal.
Our natural state is pretty much as we see it - life does not come from us but from God.

 

[Timtofly]

"Permanent incorruptible" goes against the thrust of the text.
They needed the Tree of Life.
Once banished from that, they were mortal.
Our natural state is pretty much as we see it - life does not come from us but from God.

They did not have to eat from the tree of life prior to Adam's disobedience, just like they did not have to eat from any tree. They could freely eat of any tree prior to Adam's disobedience.

The only time they needed to eat of the tree of life, was after they physically died. Their prior permanent incorruptible physical bodies did not need to eat anything prior to this death.

This verse is not describing their condition before Adam disobeyed, but after Adam disobeyed:

"And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"

Sure, now that they were dead, they did need to eat from that tree to stay alive. The verse never claims they needed it prior to this physical death. Why do so many question and object to the fact they did literally die that day, not in a "1,000 year period day"? Amil do not even accept the point, 1,000 years with the Lord is a day. They claim indefinite time periods of any thing from "seconds" to "all of time".

Something to think about. Does God cater food in to all the angels? Does God even have to feed the billions currently in Paradise? You all make heaven out like on earth where God needs a big cafeteria to feed all those beings above us. If one has a permanent incorruptible physical body, the consumption of food does not sound like a high priority on that bodies to do list. Eating would be a pleasure, and not even an over indulgence. Since eating too much would not be a problem either. Ever heard of 100% efficiency of calories added and calories burned? Or is that concept to "out of this world"?

 

[Earburner]

Permanent incorruptible" goes against the thrust of the text.
They needed the Tree of Life.
Once banished from that, they were mortal.

Once banished from the Tree of Life, they remained mortal.

 

[YeshuaFan]

So then, no one else, who is "a man of sin", being those who are "the natural man", will be slain upon Jesus coming? Scripture shows otherwise, and that it will be a simultaneous event.

2 Thessalonians 1[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
[10] WHEN he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed)
IN THAT DAY.

Man of Sin is the last Antichrist

 

[YeshuaFan]

I'm not sure of this! Science shows us evolution is how God made the world. Now, at some point God 'woke up' the first humans to his existence, and they had a moral duty to follow him. I'm not sure what they looked like at this point. Genesis 1 to 11 is very literary, hardly literal. That is, it describes real events, but dressed up in theological language to explain those events to us - without really worrying about the details of those events so much.

Modern American Creationists have lost the 'grittiness' of Eden - and I think make it into a very Pollyanna sort of place. However, check these thoughts on death before the fall from John Calvin - one of the Reformers - way before Charles Darwin ever made us question the origins of humans. (Calvin lived 1509 to 1564.) Calvin is basically a theological checklist for modern Anglican orthodoxy. And here he is arguing what death before the fall would have looked like. I wish American creationists actually read outside their theological comfort zone and realised there is so much more to Genesis than their dry, reductionist 'shopping list' of what God did when. There's so much more going on!
Did death occur before the Fall? - Common-questions

Sin brought into creation physical death

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Revelation 1:7
Zechariah 12:10

Those verses have similarities, but are not about the same thing. One verse has to do with people mourning Christ's death (Zechariah 12:10). The other has to do with people wailing in fear because of the wrath of the Lamb that's about to come down on them (see Rev 6:12-17 for the context of Rev 1:7). Zechariah 12:10 is quoted in John 19:37 as having a first coming fulfillment, not second coming.

John 19:34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. 35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. 36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,” 37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

You're not allowing scripture to interpret scripture for you. That is one of the main problems with Premil. You need to allow the New Testament to interpret the Old Testament prophecies for you. We can trust that Jesus knew what He was doing when He applied Zechariah 12:10 to when the people would look upon Him after He was crucified and pierced in the side with a spear. Many people mourned for Him at that time. That is what Zechariah 12:10 is about.

Revelation 1:7, on the other hand, is about people screaming in fear and mourning over the wrath that is about to come down upon them.

Revelation 1:7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” So shall it be! Amen.

You can see a description of what Revelation 1:7 is about here:

Revelation 6:15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

This is a totally different context than Zechariah 12:10. Again, Zechariah 12:10 is about people mourning Jesus's death, as many did at that time. Revelation 1:7 is about people mourning for themselves because of the wrath of Christ that they know is coming upon them. Even those who pierced Him will see Him and mourn when He returns because they will be resurrected to face judgment.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Still need the Messianic Age foretold by OT prophets, and neither the Eternal State nor present age is it!

You don't think Christ is reigning right now?

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Ephesians 1:18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

Is Jesus not your King right now? Are you not in His kingdom now?

Colossians 1:12 and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. 13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

man of Sin a person, per Paul, and John stated future Antichrist yet to come!

Is the following referring to an individual man of God?

2 Corinthians 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

This is not referring to an individual man of God but is referring generally to the people of God. I believe the reference to "the man of sin" in 2 Thess 2 should be understood similarly (not referring to an individual but sinful mankind in general or possibly to those who are part of the mass falling away in particular).

Also, if you think 2 Thess 2 is referring to a physical "temple of God" then how is that possible? What future physical temple could possibly be considered "the temple of God"? You know that Paul described the church as the temple of God, right?

 

[eclipsenow]

Man of Sin is the last Antichrist

Except is probably symbolic. As Dr Greg Clarke said:
_________________

John writes that “many antichrists have come”, reminding us that there has been great opposition to Christ ever since he was born (remember how Herod killed all the babies in Bethlehem trying to get to Jesus?). Throughout the whole Bible, we find characters who are ‘anti’ God’s plans—wicked men, foreign kings, false prophets and ‘the beast’ who features in Revelation 13. Even in Deuteronomy, there are warnings about the rise of prophets who lie and preach rebellion against the true God.
But is there going to be one mega-evil ruler who will deceive the world and lead millions astray and do things like brand ‘666’ on their foreheads?
Probably not. There are passages in the Bible which talk about a particular being who is Christ’s foe (e.g., “the man of lawlessness” in 2 Thessalonians 2 or the dragon of Revelation 12-13 who is identified as the Devil). But this kind of symbolic language is used to describe an attitude or spirit of evil rather than a single evil person. The fact that some parts of Scripture bring ultimate evil to a head by using an individual character to identify it probably says more about how dramatic literature operates than it does about predicting history.
The worst thing about antichrists is that they have come from within the church! The apostle John wrote that they “went out from us, but they did not really belong to us”. This is what antichrists do. They get among believers and try to deceive them, persuading them to believe lies and getting people to follow them and their deceptions rather than Jesus and his truth. They teach that Christ did not come in the flesh (1 Jn 4:1-3); they say it doesn’t matter whether you sin or not (1 Jn 1:5-10); and they neglect their Christian brothers and sisters (1 Jn 4:19-21).

According to God’s word, the antichrist might have sat next to you in the church pew. This isn’t a scene from a horror movie; quite the opposite-it is an everyday event. In this final age before Jesus returns, plenty of opponents of Jesus will arise. And they may even be in church, trying to deceive us and lead us into error. But Christians can be confident and at peace, because there will be a day when all ‘antichristness’ will be done away with.

It’s a bit of a waste of time trying to work out whether the antichrist is Boris Yeltsin, the Dalai Lama, Bill Gates or the Pope. It’s just as likely to be your granny or your next door neighbour, if they are promoting lies about our Lord.

Just make sure it isn’t you …

See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life. (1 John 2:24-25)
The devil you know

 

[YeshuaFan]

Except is probably symbolic. As Dr Greg Clarke said:
_________________

John writes that “many antichrists have come”, reminding us that there has been great opposition to Christ ever since he was born (remember how Herod killed all the babies in Bethlehem trying to get to Jesus?). Throughout the whole Bible, we find characters who are ‘anti’ God’s plans—wicked men, foreign kings, false prophets and ‘the beast’ who features in Revelation 13. Even in Deuteronomy, there are warnings about the rise of prophets who lie and preach rebellion against the true God.
But is there going to be one mega-evil ruler who will deceive the world and lead millions astray and do things like brand ‘666’ on their foreheads?
Probably not. There are passages in the Bible which talk about a particular being who is Christ’s foe (e.g., “the man of lawlessness” in 2 Thessalonians 2 or the dragon of Revelation 12-13 who is identified as the Devil). But this kind of symbolic language is used to describe an attitude or spirit of evil rather than a single evil person. The fact that some parts of Scripture bring ultimate evil to a head by using an individual character to identify it probably says more about how dramatic literature operates than it does about predicting history.
The worst thing about antichrists is that they have come from within the church! The apostle John wrote that they “went out from us, but they did not really belong to us”. This is what antichrists do. They get among believers and try to deceive them, persuading them to believe lies and getting people to follow them and their deceptions rather than Jesus and his truth. They teach that Christ did not come in the flesh (1 Jn 4:1-3); they say it doesn’t matter whether you sin or not (1 Jn 1:5-10); and they neglect their Christian brothers and sisters (1 Jn 4:19-21).

According to God’s word, the antichrist might have sat next to you in the church pew. This isn’t a scene from a horror movie; quite the opposite-it is an everyday event. In this final age before Jesus returns, plenty of opponents of Jesus will arise. And they may even be in church, trying to deceive us and lead us into error. But Christians can be confident and at peace, because there will be a day when all ‘antichristness’ will be done away with.

It’s a bit of a waste of time trying to work out whether the antichrist is Boris Yeltsin, the Dalai Lama, Bill Gates or the Pope. It’s just as likely to be your granny or your next door neighbour, if they are promoting lies about our Lord.

Just make sure it isn’t you …

See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life. (1 John 2:24-25)
The devil you know

The problem with that view is that both John and paul seemed to have in mind a specific real person, and Jesus hinted at that when he told them Him they will reject, but will accept another coming claiming to be their messiah!

 

[Earburner]

They were perfect without sin nor a sin nature. If that is your definition of innocent. There was literally no death period in all of creation until Adam disobeyed God. Adam and Eve physically died that instant and went from permanent incorruptible physical bodies to dead corruptible physical bodies. Not only did they gain the knowledge about death, but also experienced that knowledge empirically. The first "scientific test" was an act of disobedience to God.

I disagree!
A&E "became a living soul, they didn't get one, just because God breathed oxygenated air into their lungs!
If that were the case, then you are going to have to say that all animals that breathe air through their "nostrils", also were given a soul by God.
KJV Genesis 2:7, 6:17, 7:22.

 

[eclipsenow]

The problem with that view is that both John and paul seemed to have in mind a specific real person

How so?

Jesus hinted at that when he told them Him they will reject, but will accept another coming claiming to be their messiah!

Where? Matthew 24 warns of false Messiahs around the end of the temple. But as Dr Clarke reminds us, ANYONE that denies Jesus is Lord is an antiChrist.

 

[YeshuaFan]

I disagree!
A&E "became a living soul, they didn't get one, just because God breathed oxygenated air into their lungs!
If that were the case, then you are going to have to say that all animals that breathe air through their "nostrils", also were given a soul by God.
KJV Genesis 2:7, 6:17, 7:22.

There is a physical body, and there is the spiritual aspect of mankind, as babies are fully human before they take first birth out of the womb!

 

[YeshuaFan]

How so?

Where? Matthew 24 warns of false Messiahs around the end of the temple. But as Dr Clarke reminds us, ANYONE that denies Jesus is Lord is an antiChrist.

There are antichrists, but per John and Paul, shall be THE Antichrist!

 

[Timtofly]

I disagree!
A&E "became a living soul, they didn't get one, just because God breathed oxygenated air into their lungs!
If that were the case, then you are going to have to say that all animals that breathe air through their "nostrils", also were given a soul by God.
KJV Genesis 2:7, 6:17, 7:22.

Did God breathe life into all the animals? Verse please. Becoming a living soul is who you are. You are not a body, but a soul.

 

[DavidPT]

I disagree!
A&E "became a living soul, they didn't get one, just because God breathed oxygenated air into their lungs!
If that were the case, then you are going to have to say that all animals that breathe air through their "nostrils", also were given a soul by God.
KJV Genesis 2:7, 6:17, 7:22.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Doesn't a passage like this make it apparent that the body and soul are two different things?

First it says, in regards to what humans can and can't do to other humans. They can kill the body of a human, but they can't kill the soul of a human. Then we are told that God can do both things to humans, kill the body and kill the soul. Destroy in this verse, though it is a different Greek word than kill, it obviously means kill in this context. Because if it doesn't mean kill, this means, not only is man incapable of killing the soul of a human, so is God. The latter is of course ludicrous. But not to get into that debate in this thread.

 

[YeshuaFan]

Did God breathe life into all the animals? Verse please. Becoming a living soul is who you are. You are not a body, but a soul.

When we die physically, the soul still lives, and if saved, goes to be with Christ!