A few questions for Protestants

[Buzzard3]

In short, the whole routine is an illusion

It seems to me that you don't know much about the Catholic Church. Some of the nonsense peddled by Protestants about the CC is as appalling as it is laughable.

 

[Buzzard3]

Why not answer the questions?

Now that is expecting way too much ...

 

[Buzzard3]

you completely avoided the questions I asked.

Timothyu makes a habit of it. He avoids rational discussion and instead specializes in, like you said, "meaningless work salad". That's why I ignore most of his posts.

 

[Buzzard3]

Sadly you leave out 16 and 17 which gives it context.

Sadly, you're still not making sense. Why would Jesus begin a sentence with, "And I say to you that you are Peter" (Matt 16:18), if nothing in that sentence applies to Peter?

 

[Valletta]

Sadly, you're still not making sense. Why would Jesus begin a sentence with, "And I say to you that you are Peter" (Matt 16:18), if nothing in that sentence applies to Peter?

Great point. I believe Jesus was a great teacher not prone to confusing His words. Why did he not start his sentence with "I am Jesus" instead of renaming Simon in the same sentence saying: "And I say to you that you are Rock (Peter) and upon this Rock I will build My Church?"

 

[timothyu]

Why would Jesus begin a sentence with, "And I say to you that you are Peter" (Matt 16:18), if nothing in that sentence applies to Peter?

Simon, you are rock, the truth you have spoken will be the foundation the church of the people. People who understand that truth only comes from God and not the governments or institutions of self serving mankind

 

[Valletta]

Simon, you are rock, the truth you have spoken will be the foundation the church of the people. People who understand that truth only comes from God and not the governments or institutions of self serving mankind

But that's not what Jesus said.

 

[timothyu]

But that's not what Jesus said.

That is exactly the point He was making when he asked the apostles that question. Pretty hard to miss.
Blessed are you, Simon BarJonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

 

[Valletta]

Matthew 16:18

And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Douary Rheims

 

[renniks]

Which verse says "These are the necessary truths ..."? How do you know what the "necessary truths" are?

Eph 1:22-23 says the Church is the body and "fullness" of Christ. Is your church the "fullness" of Christ?

Certainly. A person experiences that fullness in any church that has the Holy Spirit. Some churches will leave you as empty as you came in.

 

[Buzzard3]

Well, have any of us reached the pinnacle of faith and knowledge yet?

Sounds like you're saying the Holy Spirit has not or cannot led anyone to "all truth" (John 16:13). In that case, you're contradicting the words of Jesus.

The idea that any church will then contain all the truth is in error.

Says who? Jesus said the HS would lead us to "all truth", so "all truth" must exist somewhere in this world. Evidently, you have no idea at all where "all truth" can be found ... you don't seem to even believe that it can be found.

To claim your particular Church contains all truth is just as problematic, since the RCC has a very long list of abuses and false doctrines down through history.

You obviously don't understand what "all truth" means in John 16:13, which relates to DOCTRINAL truth. It doesn't mean individual members of the Church will behave perfectly and be sinless in this life.

 

[timothyu]

Jesus said the HS would lead us to "all truth", so "all truth" must exist somewhere in this world. Evidently, you have no idea at all where "all truth" can be found

All truth referred to the Gospel of the Kingdom alone, definitely not to the doctrines of man.

 

[renniks]

You obviously don't understand what "all truth" means in John 16:13, which relates to DOCTRINAL truth. It doesn't mean individual members of the Church will behave perfectly and be sinless in this life.

What good is doctrinal truth if it doesn't change the individual?
To claim your church is doctrinally pure while it is morally corrupt is like saying that the outside of the cup looks good but the inside is full of rotten bones.

 

[renniks]

Says who? Jesus said the HS would lead us to "all truth", so "all truth" must exist somewhere in this world. Evidently, you have no idea at all where "all truth" can be found ... you don't seem to even believe that it can be found.

Jesus is the way and the truth. A church that gets in the way of people coming directly to Jesus is blocking the truth. Putting priests in between, putting prayers to a mere person in between, losing people in the rituals instead of leading them to the cross....did you ever think that perhaps all truth here isn't about the doctrines that aren't central, but about something much deeper? The heart of God isn't for us to understand him perfectly, but to know him intimately.

 

[enoob57]

Each of us stands alone before God at the Judgment seat of Christ:

I don't believe this is true due to these verses
1 Corinthians 4:5 (KJV)
[5] Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
Luke 8:17 (KJV)
[17] For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.

 

[BobRyan]

Each of us stands alone before God at the Judgment seat of Christ:
no pastor/priest/church-council will stand-in our place.

2 Cor 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

So then:
========================================
God Himself is "a God of Truth"

Deut 32:

3 For I proclaim the name of the Lord:
Ascribe greatness to our God.
4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect;
For all His ways are justice,
A God of truth and without injustice;
Righteous and upright is He.

He made Himself known to us through Christ (God the Son)

John 1:
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
... 18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

Our source of Truth is Christ

John 14:6 "the WAY the Truth and the life"

And therefore the Holy Spirit
John 16 "The Spirit of TRUTH will guide you into all Truth"

1 John 5:6 This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

1 John 2:27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

===========================================
Our infallible standard of truth is the Word of God. And we measure all doctrine by that standard:

Acts 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - WERE SO"

2 Tim 3:16 "ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God AND is to be used for doctrine AND correction"

Gal 1:6-9 "if WE (Apostles) or an angel from heaven brings to you a gospel other than what you have already received - let him be accursed!"

The Holy Spirit gave us Scripture

2 Pet 1: 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. (NKJV)

20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. (NASB)

====================

Your argument in the OP is that with only God and His Word as our source of Truth - would we not then agree that we could never have any real assurance of what Truth is - and our answer is "no we do not agree".

And of course the whole argument in the "protesting Catholics" history of the reformation is - "yes" we do have assurance of pure doctrine by relying on God alone, scripture alone. And we join in fellowship with like-minded Christians in that regard - all benefiting from the gifts God has given to the "body of Christ" via the Holy Spirit.

Still it does not change the fact that each one stands alone before at that judgment seat - no historic flawed council will be there taking our place.

I don't believe this is true due to these verses
1 Corinthians 4:5 (KJV)
[5] Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
Luke 8:17 (KJV)
[17] For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.

I don't see any "either-or" conflict between the texts I quoted and you omitted ... vs the ones you quoted

 

[timothyu]

Matthew 23: 13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Matthew 23: 14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Matthew 23:27Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.

 

[BobRyan]

" For a Christian, what is the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth? Is it the Bible? Yes or no?"

the sola scriptura model for testing all doctrine and practice - that I use - places the Bible as the thing that tests - since it is the work of God the Holy Spirit and in perfect harmony with Christ's teaching. In fact Christ is the one speaking at Sinai according to Heb 8:6-12

 

[enoob57]

I don't see any "either-or" conflict between the texts I quoted and you omitted ... vs the ones you quoted

My reply was specific to what I quoted... you said we stand alone and according to the verses I quoted refute that idea...

 

[BobRyan]

My reply was specific to what I quoted... you said we stand alone and according to the verses I quoted refute that idea...

my post said --

2 Cor 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
.

I did not find anything in your post to challenge it

I suppose I could have added --

Rom 2:
3 But do you suppose this, you foolish person who passes judgment on those who practice such things, and yet does them as well, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will repay each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek, 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.

26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.