Can Amil prove with Scripture that the beast is in the pit during the thousand years?

[DavidPT]

'WE' (all of us who care what the Truth of scripture is - I hope that includes you) don't need any of that.

We have this - which clears it up nicely:

"And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which He sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it and dwelt therein. ... according to all that He sware unto their fathers ... (Nothing failed) of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass."
Joshua 21:43-45

"... ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the Lord your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof."
Joshua 23:14-15

All God's promises to Israel were paid in full many, many years ago. Do we really need to prove that they lived in and controlled a specific area of land?

Did Ezekiel live before or during the time Joshua did, or did he live after Joshua did? Was Ezekiel a prophet? Do not prophets predict future events?

Ezekiel 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

Is verse 25 already true? Are they currently dwelling forever in the land He gave unto Jacob His servant, wherein their fathers have dwelt? What land did He give unto Jacob his servant? What land was it that their fathers dwelt in? Texas? New York? Mexico? Canada?

How long should we assume forever is meaning, because once they are dwelling in this land, the text indicates they will dwell their forever?

And as to this land in question, when Joshua 21:43-45 was meaning did they ever get expelled from this same land after that? Did they ever return to this same land they were expelled from after the time Joshua 21:43-45 is meaning, and then get expelled yet again? Eventually they have to return to the land they were expelled from in order to fulfill Ezekiel 37:25, don't you think? Then dwell there forever. When do you propose that happens or has already happened? Or do you perhaps simply don't believe what Ezekiel 37:25 records?

 

[DavidPT]

Would you like to discuss some specific texts?

Not really sure what to do with this.

Revelation 12 for example. Assuming the thousand years are meaning now, that chapter involves the past 2000 years and then some, the same 2000 years Amil has satan bound in the pit. Except I can't see anywhere in that chapter to place Revelation 20:1-2. It can't fit prior to the war in heaven. It can't fit once he sees he is cast to the earth since none of that depicts being cast into a prison then shut up.

If one were to insert the following in Revelation 12, where would one insert it at, therefore, pinpointing the beginning of his binding?

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him

If Revelation 12 involves the past 2000 years and then some, which everyone, I would think, at least agrees with that, and that these same past 2000 years have been involving the thousand years, that obviously means the beginning of his binding has to fit somewhere within Revelation 12 since it would be ludicrous to insist that the past 2000 years involve the thousand years but that nothing in Revelation 12 pinpoints when he is initially bound.

 

[Think...]

God just promised Israel He, Himself would fulfill that promise after the fulness of the Gentiles.

Do you have any specific scripture that lays this out plainly?

 

[Timtofly]

Do you have any specific scripture that lays this out plainly?

You gave the Scriptures in Joshua. Daniel 9 is the 70 weeks, so the promises themselves were still future. As for our future, that is in Revelation 7-22.

How "plain" can the future be told? People have issues with a correct historical position.

 

[DavidPT]

Rather than trying to fiddle with impossible to know and endlessly speculative details, the larger theme at work seems rather simple: When Christ returns as Judge of the living and the dead it means the destruction, the end of the beast and its power.

Everyone already agrees with that to begin with, meaning your point involving the end of the beast and its power. But the beast is not satan, though. That is the end of the beast but is it also the end of satan at that time? In Revelation 19 the LOF is in view, except there is not one single mention of satan also being cast into the LOF at that time. Why not, if he is? If John saw satan also being cast into the LOF why didn't he record that he saw that event as well?

 

[Think...]

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

Is verse 25 already true? Are they currently dwelling forever in the land ...

How long should we assume forever is meaning, because once they are dwelling in this land, the text indicates they will dwell their forever?

Forever certainly doesn't support a 1,000 year period of physical time on the earth after Christ's return. All of Ezekiel's prophecy there is likely talking about the New Heaven and New Earth. And God's people Israel are not a physical race. They are a spiritual race. Just as God is a Spirit John 4:24, and His Firstborn is Israel, His Children. Exodus 4:22 Israel are those of the Spirit, not of the Flesh. Romans 9:8 No ethnic, physical Israel.

So, if Ezekiel is speaking of God's Children dwelling in 'the land', He is most likely speaking of spiritual Israel and spiritual Jerusalem which comes down from Heaven at Christ's return. Revelation 20:11

And as to this land in question, when Joshua 21:43-45 was meaning did they ever get expelled from this same land after that? Did they ever return to this same land they were expelled from after the time Joshua 21:43-45 is meaning, and then get expelled yet again? Eventually they have to return to the land they were expelled from in order to fulfill Ezekiel 37:25, don't you think? Then dwell there forever. When do you propose that happens or has already happened? Or do you perhaps simply don't believe what Ezekiel 37:25 records?

None of that supports a need for God to again fulfill what He has already plainly fulfilled in the Joshua verses presented. If that group of people blew it, that's on them, not on God to re-give His promises to them. That makes ZERO sense. If we blow it here on earth, in our physical life, it's not on God to give us a re-do.

Is it not true that if we are dead with Christ, we are made alive in Christ and raised, all together, to live and reign with Him, in "heavenly places"?
2 Timothy 2:11-12
Ephesians 2:5-6

Therefore, it is entirely possible to exist in heavenly Jerusalem, with Christ forever; from this point forth.

 

[Think...]

Revelation 12 for example. Assuming the thousand years are meaning now, that chapter involves the past 2000 years and then some, the same 2000 years Amil has satan bound in the pit. Except I can't see anywhere in that chapter to place Revelation 20:1-2. It can't fit prior to the war in heaven. It can't fit once he sees he is cast to the earth since none of that depicts being cast into a prison then shut up.

If one were to insert the following in Revelation 12, where would one insert it at, therefore, pinpointing the beginning of his binding?

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him

If Revelation 12 involves the past 2000 years and then some, which everyone, I would think, at least agrees with that, and that these same past 2000 years have been involving the thousand years, that obviously means the beginning of his binding has to fit somewhere within Revelation 12 since it would be ludicrous to insist that the past 2000 years involve the thousand years but that nothing in Revelation 12 pinpoints when he is initially bound.

You're trying to piece together an impossible puzzle because Revelation is not literal, nor linear.

Many of the chapters and verses in Revelation completely contradict chapter 20. Many of them present events that can't possibly happen prior to chapter 20. You're not crazy; you're seeing the limitations of using Revelation as the Master Key to the rest of the 65 books of scripture.

It doesn't work at all.

You must use the rest of scripture to understand what is being said in Revelation. And even then, you will find discrepancies because it is all visionary, spiritual realm, signs and symbols.

Look at the KJV intro to Revelation. It plainly states that the book is all about symbolism and visions. Look at the very first verse of chapter 1.

Revelation 1:1
Jesus signified the book of Revelation. That means He uses 'signs' and 'symbols' to relate things that can only be understood from a timeless, non-linear, spiritual perspective.

The best way to understand it is to steep yourself in all the other eschatological passages in scripture and then look at Revelation as a complimentary "much less literal" book of prophecy.

All these passages coincide perfectly:
Matthew 24:29-31
Isaiah 13:9-11
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
1 Corinthians 15:22-26

It's Revelation, and specifically chapter 20, that does not align with them at all.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Everyone already agrees with that to begin with, meaning your point involving the end of the beast and its power. But the beast is not satan, though. That is the end of the beast but is it also the end of satan at that time? In Revelation 19 the LOF is in view, except there is not one single mention of satan also being cast into the LOF at that time. Why not, if he is? If John saw satan also being cast into the LOF why didn't he record that he saw that event as well?

I don't understand the question, St. John does record the devil being cast into the lake of fire in his visions, Revelation 20:10.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[DavidPT]

I don't understand the question, St. John does record the devil being cast into the lake of fire in his visions, Revelation 20:10.

-CryptoLutheran

That is in Revelation 20, though. I'm meaning in Revelation 19. John does not record that satan is also cast in at the time. But why not, if he is? Why record in Revelation 19 that the beast and fp are cast into the LOF, and then not record in that same chapter that satan is also cast into the LOF at that time? The only thing I can figure out, it's because John never sees satan getting cast into the LOF when the beast and fp are. Instead, John sees satan getting cast into the bottomless pit, since that is what he records having seen next.

 

[DavidPT]

Revelation 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

A)
Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

B)
Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

What's in question here, what I have underlined in Revelation 18:23, does that lead to what I have underlined in A), thus explains what I have underlined in A) since Revelation 18:23 involves deceiving all nations and that what I have underlined in A) is involving deceiving nations no more?

Or is it instead involving what I have underlined in B), where that then leads to satan getting cast into the LOF at the end of Revelation 18:23 rather than being cast into the bottomless pit at the end of Revelation 18:23?

It seems to me both choices are valid choices. How do we decide which one is the better choice, the correct choice?

 

[Earburner]

I do not read the book of Revelation in a chronological fashion, yet some of it is chronological. For example, the trumpets. The 7th trumpet doesn't precede the 5th trumpet. The 5th trumpet is mentioned before the 7th trumpet. But, since Revelation is not chronological throughout, does this mean that I can maybe assume the events involving the 7th trumpet can precede the events involving the 5th trumpet? No, since that would be silly.

As to interpreting the book of Revelation literally, some of it I do some of it I don't. Below, I argue that since some events can involve literal physical acts, the same can be true of Revelation 20:1-3.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


When this gets fulfilled should one assume it will be fulfilled in the same sense you see Revelation 20:1-3 being fulfilled? IOW, should one assume Revelation 19:20 involves no physical act by anyone, that no one is actually being physically taken then physically cast into the LOF? Or should we instead assume Revelation 19:20 involves physical acts? I vote for the latter, and I'm assuming you probably do as well, and since it can involve physical acts in this verse I don't see why it can't involve physical acts in Revelation 20:1-3 as well. I don't see why satan can't be physically taken then physically cast into the bottomless pit, the same way the beast and fp are physically taken then physically cast into the LOF.

In Revelation 20:10-15, that also involves being cast into somewhere, the LOF in this case, and that the casting in involves a physical act since someone is physically casting them into the LOF and that they are physically being held within the place they are cast into. Why would that casting in be literal but it wouldn't be literal in Revelation 20:1-3? Just because the key and chain isn't literal this doesn't mean that the BP can't be a literal place that someone can literally be cast into then literally confined there.

Quite "literally", satan is bound (restrained) by only three actions against him, in his attempt to achieve his goals.
They are:
1. He is restrained from entering back into Heaven.
2. He is restrained from re-entering a person, who has converted to Christ, and did receive God's Holy Spirit.
3. He is restrained by God's Born Again Saints being in the world, and in every generation. By the Holy Spirit within them, they are the Spiritual restraint against "the mystery of iniquity", that once ruled the world, in the OT Age of Transgression.

Unfortunately, today the visible churches have been losing their "saltiness", and are now perceived by the world as being "good for nothing".
Matt.5[13] Ye are the salt of the earth:
but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.*

2 Thes. 2[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [of the Lord's return] shall not come, except there come a falling away [from faith] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition [aka the natural man];
[6] And now ye know what withholdeth [holds back the Day of the Lord's return] that he might be revealed in his time.
[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [restrains iniquity] will let [restrain iniquity], until he be taken out of the way [is cast out, to be trodden under foot*].

*(See the last ten words in KJV Revelation 6:11, about the OT saints, who had been given the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, though they were dead and buried long ago. (Malachi 3:16).

 

[ViaCrucis]

That is in Revelation 20, though. I'm meaning in Revelation 19. John does not record that satan is also cast in at the time. But why not, if he is? Why record in Revelation 19 that the beast and fp are cast into the LOF, and then not record in that same chapter that satan is also cast into the LOF at that time? The only thing I can figure out, it's because John never sees satan getting cast into the LOF when the beast and fp are. Instead, John sees satan getting cast into the bottomless pit, since that is what he records having seen next.

I don't share your assumption about the text that it is supposed to be an order of events. So when/where it's recorded doesn't really matter to me. The fact of the matter is that, in the end, there is Judgment. If you want to overly-literalize the Apocalypse then go for it, nobody is going to stop you. But that simply isn't how I, nor the majority of Christians over the last two thousand years have understood it.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Earburner]

Are not hell and the lake of Fire "literal places?"

Hell is the grave.
The lake of fire does not exist yet.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Hell is the grave.
The lake of fire does not exist yet.

Depends on what you mean by "hell". That word covers several different ideas in Scripture, including the lake of fire. Hell can refer to the general place of the dead (She'ol or Hades), the place of the wicked dead specifically (Gehenna), and we also use it generally to describe the ultimate fate of the wicked (the lake of fire/second death).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Earburner]

Everyone already agrees with that to begin with, meaning your point involving the end of the beast and its power. But the beast is not satan, though. That is the end of the beast but is it also the end of satan at that time? In Revelation 19 the LOF is in view, except there is not one single mention of satan also being cast into the LOF at that time. Why not, if he is? If John saw satan also being cast into the LOF why didn't he record that he saw that event as well?

"If John saw satan also being cast into the LOF why didn't he record that he saw that event as well?"

John did see that same event. Satan was cast into the LoF (molten lava), where the Beast and the False Prophet are.
You have numerous false assumptions that are misdirecting you. We are clearly told what to expect.
Jesus is returning in flaming fire.
Our God is a consuming fire.
The LoF begins by Jesus' sudden and Glorious appearance from Heaven.

The first to immediately suffer His Everlasting all consuming, flaming fire is the B and the FP, which is the flash point/beginning of that LoF. Immediately right behind them is satan.

For overall detail, Peter explains it rather well, of what is affected.
2 Peter 3
[10] But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

That same event is repeated to John in a separate vision, in Revelation 20
Rev.20[9] And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire [Jesus] came down from God out of heaven, and devoured [consumed] them.
Please notice the word "camp". It is in reference to the Feast of Tabernacles, which is symbolic of our temporary mortal bodies, in which God is now indwelling and tabernacling with us, until the day of His return, to change and resurrect us into the likeness of Christ's Immortality.

So then, what of satan?
There is no delay or added time to the sudden appearance of Jesus. Satan never escapes His place of imprisonment, this earth. He also is burned up, along with earth, of which in it's entirety will be a globe of molten lava, aka a lake of fire.

So, why the term of "a thousand years"?
The simple and straight forward answer is what Jesus said.
Matthew 24[35] Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
[36] But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Even Jesus does not not know WHEN He shall return.

In the meantime, while we all wait, there are people to be SAVED out of every generation, until the Day of His Glorious return in flaming fire.
2 Peter 3[8] But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise [of His salvation], as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Earburner]

Depends on what you mean by "hell". That word covers several different ideas in Scripture, including the lake of fire. Hell can refer to the general place of the dead (She'ol or Hades), the place of the wicked dead specifically (Gehenna), and we also use it generally to describe the ultimate fate of the wicked (the lake of fire/second death).

-CryptoLutheran

To get to the point. I do not believe that any of us are given an eternal living soul, but rather that we all become a living soul, the minute we breathe oxygenated air. Apart from Jesus, we who are mortal flesh, have no eternal existence of any kind.
Our blood requires and demands Oxygen. Without it, we as living souls, shall become a dead soul.
Please review KJV Genesis 2:7, 6:17, 7:22

 

[Earburner]

^ BTW, the word "soul" in Hebrew is "nephesh", which means "animal life".

 

[YeshuaFan]

Quite "literally", satan is bound (restrained) by only three actions against him, in his attempt to achieve his goals.
They are:
1. He is restrained from entering back into Heaven.
2. He is restrained from re-entering a person, who has converted to Christ, and did receive God's Holy Spirit.
3. He is restrained by God's Born Again Saints being in the world, and in every generation. By the Holy Spirit within them, they are the Spiritual restraint against "the mystery of iniquity", that once ruled the world, in the OT Age of Transgression.

Unfortunately, today the visible churches have been losing their "saltiness", and are now perceived by the world as being "good for nothing".
Matt.5[13] Ye are the salt of the earth:
but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.*

2 Thes. 2[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [of the Lord's return] shall not come, except there come a falling away [from faith] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition [aka the natural man];
[6] And now ye know what withholdeth [holds back the Day of the Lord's return] that he might be revealed in his time.
[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [restrains iniquity] will let [restrain iniquity], until he be taken out of the way [is cast out, to be trodden under foot*].

*(See the last ten words in KJV Revelation 6:11, about the OT saints, who had been given the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, though they were dead and buried long ago. (Malachi 3:16).

The Holy Spirit is restaining him from getting his antichrist upon the scene, but once church removed, then satan free to act!

 

[YeshuaFan]

Depends on what you mean by "hell". That word covers several different ideas in Scripture, including the lake of fire. Hell can refer to the general place of the dead (She'ol or Hades), the place of the wicked dead specifically (Gehenna), and we also use it generally to describe the ultimate fate of the wicked (the lake of fire/second death).

-CryptoLutheran

Sheol and hades seems to be the grave, while Hell is a place or torment , and will be cast in end into lake of Fire!

 

[ViaCrucis]

Sheol and hades seems to be the grave, while Hell is a place or torment , and will be cast in end into lake of Fire!

In Greek we read that Hades is cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:14--
καὶ ὁ θάνατος καὶ ὁ ᾅδης ἐβλήθησαν εἰς τὴν λίμνην τοῦ πυρός οὗτος ἐστιν ὁ δεύτερός θάνατος
kai ho thanatos kai ho hades eblethesan eis ten limnen tou pyros houtos estin ho deuteros thanatos
"and the death and the hades were cast into the lake of fire which is the second death"

The English word "hell" has been used to translate She'ol, Hades, and Gehenna.

-CryptoLutheran