Can Amil prove with Scripture that the beast is in the pit during the thousand years?

[DavidPT]

You are misrepresenting Amil again. Where did he say that the binding of Satan was necessary for him being unable to access heaven?

Here you go again, shooting first then asking questions later. You start off by telling me I'm misrepresenting Amil, thus shooting first, then after you have fired off a round a two, you decide to start asking questions. I'm going to try and not let it upset me anymore and just face it that some ppl would rather accuse others first rather than giving the other person a chance to explain what they were meaning since it might not be meaning what the accuser believed the accused to be meaning.


"Right now, because of the sacrifice of Christ, satan is bound from entering back into Heaven"



What I have in quotes above is what the poster said at the time. What should one take that to mean?

The only binding I'm aware of in regards to satan is him being bound a thousand years. Do you know of another binding of satan that does not involve this thousand years that you insist has been underway for the past 2000 years? When Amils mention satan and bound in the same sentence, what should Premils assume that that is in regards to if not Revelation 20:1-3?

 

[Earburner]

"Right now, because of the sacrifice of Christ, satan is bound from entering back into Heaven"
What I have in quotes above is what the poster said at the time. What should one take that to mean?

Luke 10[17] And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
[18] And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
[19] Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
[20] Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Here you go again, shooting first then asking questions later. You start off by telling me I'm misrepresenting Amil, thus shooting first, then after you have fired off a round a two, you decide to start asking questions. I'm going to try and not let it upset me anymore and just face it that some ppl would rather accuse others first rather than giving the other person a chance to explain what they were meaning since it might not be meaning what the accuser believed the accused to be meaning.


"Right now, because of the sacrifice of Christ, satan is bound from entering back into Heaven"



What I have in quotes above is what the poster said at the time. What should one take that to mean?

The only binding I'm aware of in regards to satan is him being bound a thousand years. Do you know of another binding of satan that does not involve this thousand years that you insist has been underway for the past 2000 years? When Amils mention satan and bound in the same sentence, what should Premils assume that that is in regards to if not Revelation 20:1-3?

Most Amils believe that the binding of Satan began through the earthly ministry of Christ (being witnessed by His open and repeated exercising authority over the demoniac realm and the liberating of those bound in chains in darkness). The cross and the first resurrection destroyed the power of sin, death, Hades and Satan.

 

[DavidPT]

Luke 10[17] And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
[18] And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
[19] Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
[20] Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Per your view of things, since things like this were already happening before Amil has satan bound a thousand years, that not being until the cross or maybe the ascension, why does satan need to be bound a thousand years? He apparently doesn't need to be bound a thousand years when those 70 did what they did at the time.

BTW, what does this post have to do with what you were previously saying about satan was bound from being able to enter back into heaven because of Christ's sacrifice on the cross? What you submitted above is meaning before the cross, not after. I just noticed post #182 which I hadn't read prior to making this post. Maybe you address some of these questions in that post?

 

[Earburner]

Per your view of things, since things like this were already happening before Amil has satan bound a thousand years, that not being until the cross or maybe the ascension, why does satan need to be bound a thousand years? He apparently doesn't need to be bound a thousand years when those 70 did what they did at the time.

A thousand years is symbolic of the Age of God's Grace. There is no time limit on it, and that is why Jesus said that the day of His Glorious appearing is in His Father's hands only.

Satan is bound by the sacrifice of Jesus, which offers the believer deliverance from the captivity of satan and sin. Once the believer is sealed by the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, satan can never re-enter that person again. Prior to that, there was no salvation of anyone from satan's grasp or habitation. It is known of as the "age of transgression". Daniel 9:24.

When Jesus first appeared, "the transgressors had come full", by Antiochus Epiphanes of the 3rd beast empire, committing "the abomination that makes desolate" in 169 BC.
Antiochus IV Epiphanes - Wikipedia

 

[Earburner]

BTW, what does this post have to do with what you were previously saying about satan was bound from being able to enter back into heaven because of Christ's sacrifice on the cross? What you submitted above is meaning before the cross, not after. I just noticed post #182 which I hadn't read prior to making this post. Maybe you address some of these questions in that post?

I provided the scripture of what Jesus "beheld" about satan being cast out of Heaven.
Luke 10[18] And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Of which Jesus was referencing this event:
Revelation 12[7] And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
[8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
[9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Jude.1[6] And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Simply put, satan and the angels that fell with him, cannot enter into Heaven ever again, unless of course you believe that God allows sin in His presence.

 

[DavidPT]

I provided the scripture of what Jesus "beheld" about satan being cast out of Heaven.
Luke 10[18] And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Of which Jesus was referencing this event:
Revelation 12[7] And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
[8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
[9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Jude.1[6] And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Simply put, satan and the angels that fell with him, cannot enter into Heaven ever again, unless of course you believe that God allows sin in His presence.

I agree that satan and his angels can't ever enter heaven again. What I don't agree with is that this has anything to do with Revelation 20:1-3 in any way shape or form. Revelation 12 involves the past 2000 years and then some, the same 2000 years Amils insist satan is in the pit. Except I'm not seeing anywhere in Revelation 12 that Revelation 20:1-2 can fit. In Revelation 12 where does one propose that an angel comes down from heaven, then lays hold of satan, binds him a thousand years, then casts him into the bottomless pit? There are 17 verses in Revelation 12. Between which verses does one propose that Revelation 20:1-2 fits? Does Revelation 20:1-2 fit between verses 7 and 8? 8 and 9? 9 and 10? So on and so on.

 

[Earburner]

During that period of time, the saved will have been raised and glorified at time of Second Coming, with the living going on into the Kingdom Age under Christ

So then, you being in your eternal, immortal body with Christ, shall rule over those who are left alive, who are still mortal, in the flesh and blood bodies.
Since the Grace of God had ended, signified by the Glorious Return of Christ, how will anyone, who is still mortal be allowed to come before God through Jesus, to become saved, when the "door" of God's salvation had been "shut" upon His return? Matthew 25:10-12

Better yet, how is it that "flesh and blood" will be able to interact with those who are Glorified, and are in the KoG on earth? Iows, how shall all those, who had taken the MoB, get a second chance, when that act of taking the mark has locked them in
to the situation of never having forgiveness?

 

[Earburner]

I agree that satan and his angels can't ever enter heaven again. What I don't agree with is that this has anything to do with Revelation 20:1-3 in any way shape or form.
Revelation 12 involves the past 2000 years and then some, the same 2000 years Amils insist satan is in the pit. Except I'm not seeing anywhere in Revelation 12 that Revelation 20:1-2 can fit. In Revelation 12 where does one propose that an angel comes down from heaven, then lays hold of satan, binds him a thousand years, then casts him into the bottomless pit? There are 17 verses in Revelation 12. Between which verses does one propose that Revelation 20:1-2 fits? Does Revelation 20:1-2 fit between verses 7 and 8? 8 and 9? 9 and 10? So on and so on.

KJV- Rev. 20[1] And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
[3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

As I had said earlier, we are not to read the book of Revelation in a literal, chronological manner.
After the war in heaven, whereby satan was cast out of Heaven, onto the earth, the "angel" that "laid hold", or grabbed satan, is speaking of Christ symbolically.
What angel, other than possibly Michael (a code name), could it be, that grabed satan on the run, except it be Jesus Himself, who put satan in spiritual "chains of darkeness", making him to be void of the presence of God and the truth of God?
Now being void of both, satan is on "death row", looking at this earth as the "bottomless pit", the place of his endless grave.

In Luke 10:17 we find that the fallen angels are subject to us THROUGH JESUS' NAME.
Luke 10[17] And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

Are you looking for an exact time of when you shall see when satan is "loosed", according to how men mean that word? You shall not see it, but you will know of it. When a falling away (from faith) takes place, through the manifestation of the MoB,
you shall know then that the NAME of Jesus is spoken of by very few in the world.

 

[Earburner]

^ cont'd
Speaking of that "angel(?)" who had the key to the bottomless pit, you all might want to look at the following:
Rev.1[18] I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell [the graves] and of death.

 

[DavidPT]

As I had said earlier, we are not to read the book of Revelation in a literal, chronological manner.
After the war in heaven, whereby satan was cast out of Heaven, onto the earth, the "angel" that "laid hold", or grabbed satan, is speaking of Christ symbolically.
What angel, other than possibly Michael (a code name), could it be, that grabed satan on the run, except it be Jesus Himself, who put satan in spiritual "chains of darkeness", making him to be void of the presence of God and the truth of God?
Now being void of both, satan is on "death row", looking at this earth as the "bottomless pit", the place of his endless grave.

I do not read the book of Revelation in a chronological fashion, yet some of it is chronological. For example, the trumpets. The 7th trumpet doesn't precede the 5th trumpet. The 5th trumpet is mentioned before the 7th trumpet. But, since Revelation is not chronological throughout, does this mean that I can maybe assume the events involving the 7th trumpet can precede the events involving the 5th trumpet? No, since that would be silly.

As to interpreting the book of Revelation literally, some of it I do some of it I don't. Below, I argue that since some events can involve literal physical acts, the same can be true of Revelation 20:1-3.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


When this gets fulfilled should one assume it will be fulfilled in the same sense you see Revelation 20:1-3 being fulfilled? IOW, should one assume Revelation 19:20 involves no physical act by anyone, that no one is actually being physically taken then physically cast into the LOF? Or should we instead assume Revelation 19:20 involves physical acts? I vote for the latter, and I'm assuming you probably do as well, and since it can involve physical acts in this verse I don't see why it can't involve physical acts in Revelation 20:1-3 as well. I don't see why satan can't be physically taken then physically cast into the bottomless pit, the same way the beast and fp are physically taken then physically cast into the LOF.

In Revelation 20:10-15, that also involves being cast into somewhere, the LOF in this case, and that the casting in involves a physical act since someone is physically casting them into the LOF and that they are physically being held within the place they are cast into. Why would that casting in be literal but it wouldn't be literal in Revelation 20:1-3? Just because the key and chain isn't literal this doesn't mean that the BP can't be a literal place that someone can literally be cast into then literally confined there.

 

[YeshuaFan]

I do not read the book of Revelation in a chronological fashion, yet some of it is chronological. For example, the trumpets. The 7th trumpet doesn't precede the 5th trumpet. The 5th trumpet is mentioned before the 7th trumpet. But, since Revelation is not chronological throughout, does this mean that I can maybe assume the events involving the 7th trumpet can precede the events involving the 5th trumpet? No, since that would be silly.

As to interpreting the book of Revelation literally, some of it I do some of it I don't. Below, I argue that since some events can involve literal physical acts, the same can be true of Revelation 20:1-3.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


When this gets fulfilled should one assume it will be fulfilled in the same sense you see Revelation 20:1-3 being fulfilled? IOW, should one assume Revelation 19:20 involves no physical act by anyone, that no one is actually being physically taken then physically cast into the LOF? Or should we instead assume Revelation 19:20 involves physical acts? I vote for the latter, and I'm assuming you probably do as well, and since it can involve physical acts in this verse I don't see why it can't involve physical acts in Revelation 20:1-3 as well. I don't see why satan can't be physically taken then physically cast into the bottomless pit, the same way the beast and fp are physically taken then physically cast into the LOF.

In Revelation 20:10-15, that also involves being cast into somewhere, the LOF in this case, and that the casting in involves a physical act since someone is physically casting them into the LOF and that they are physically being held within the place they are cast into. Why would that casting in be literal but it wouldn't be literal in Revelation 20:1-3? Just because the key and chain isn't literal this doesn't mean that the BP can't be a literal place that someone can literally be cast into then literally confined there.

Are not hell and the lake of Fire "literal places?"

 

[DavidPT]

Are not hell and the lake of Fire "literal places?"

Yes they are and even most Amils likely agree, or at least I assume they do. So, I'm not seeing why they might disagree that the BP is also a literal place, except maybe because Amil can't work if the BP is a literal place? If it is a literal place it would mean there would be zero evidence of satan's activities while imprisoned in there, the same way there will be zero evidence of his activities once he is cast into the LOF, meaning that it will be impossible for him to still be active on the earth once he is cast into the LOF. I don't see why the same shouldn't be true once he is cast into the BP.

 

[Think...]

It seems to me, if Amil can prove that with Scripture, the debate between Premil vs Amil is over. Premil has the beast in the LOF during the thousand years. But if it is in the pit instead, that obviously contradicts Premil, thus Premil can't work. We know satan is in the pit during the thousand years because the text tells us so. We also know the beast is in the pit at some point if it ascends out of it at some point. Should we assume the pit doesn't even exist until the beginning of the thousand years, or that it does exist before the thousand years, but no one is ever cast into it until the beginning of the thousand years, thus it is empty before the thousand years?

As to the above, it doesn't matter if the pit is literal or not literal, those questions are still relevant even if the pit is not literal.

Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

In this passage we see the pit being opened and locusts emerging. It doesn't matter what these locusts might be, the point is, they are ascending out of the pit once it is opened, obviously implying they were imprisoned in the pit at an earlier time. This raises a cpl of questions. When were they initially cast into the pit and why were they? When are they released from the pit? We know it's during the 5th trumpet. But when is the 5th trumpet meaning, in relation to the thousand years? There are only 3 options. Is it meaning before the thousand years? During the thousand years? Or after the thousand years?

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

This is obviously meaning at the beginning of the thousand years. As to these locusts in ch 9, and even the beast as well, where does this text ever show either of those being cast into the pit with satan in the beginning of thousand years? I don't see that in the text anywhere. The text indicates that satan is bound so that he should deceive the nations no more. Assuming the locusts are cast in when satan is, does that mean they too are cast in so that they should deceive the nations no more either? If the beast is cast in when satan is, is that so that it should deceive the nations no more either?

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Does not verse 10 already have the beast and fp in the LOF when satan is loosed? Does any of the above also mention that the beast is loosed from the pit when satan is? Does any of the above also mention that the locusts are loosed when satan is?

Does it matter to you that there are no 'Land Promises' left to even justify the need for a 1,000 yr period for God to make good to Israel on His promises? Those promises were fulfilled thousands of years ago.

This is one of the biggest reasons Pre-Mills claim that a doctrine, made out of only 7 verses, in a highly symbolic/visionary/spiritual book, with zero corroboration from any other books in the Bible, is even a legitimate doctrine.

Joshua fully closes the book on those promises. There is no justification for any Millennium time period after the 2nd Advent whatsoever; and scripture contradicts the idea repeatedly.

Pre-Mill "can't work" based on all the scriptures that present Christ as reigning King and His kingdom not being on, or of, this earth. There can never be a Mill. time period, upon the earth, after Christ's return that coincides with scripture as a whole.

It simply doesn't fit within the Biblical data.

 

[Timtofly]

Does it matter to you that there are no 'Land Promises' left to even justify the need for a 1,000 yr period for God to make good to Israel on His promises? Those promises were fulfilled thousands of years ago.

This is one of the biggest reasons Pre-Mills claim that a doctrine, made out of only 7 verses, in a highly symbolic/visionary/spiritual book, with zero corroboration from any other books in the Bible, is even a legitimate doctrine.

Joshua fully closes the book on those promises. There is no justification for any Millennium time period after the 2nd Advent whatsoever; and scripture contradicts the idea repeatedly.

Pre-Mill "can't work" based on all the scriptures that present Christ as reigning King and His kingdom not being on, or of, this earth. There can never be a Mill. time period, upon the earth, after Christ's return that coincides with scripture as a whole.

It simply doesn't fit within the Biblical data.

You can prove with Biblical data that Israel controlled a flourishing civilization from the whole of the Euphrates River. That is from Turkey to the Persian Gulf. The whole of Euphrates to the whole of the Nile River? You have data from the Bible that they lived in and controlled all that territory?

If they had all that under control, Jonah could have just taken a ferry across the Euphrates River into Nineveh. Palestine would have been on the west bank of the Euphrates River.

A person who comes from a position, "there can never be", has an uphill battle of progress to fight against. Do you think God created this reality for the sole purpose of sin to reign? Your claim rules out that God set aside time for righteousness. People forget that God is not just about "being against sin". God has always had a time of rest that is set aside as Holy and set apart for God, Himself.

Job had a perfect life, then trouble, then back to a perfect life. Yet you all paint a picture that God only created this earth so Satan could have 6,000 years of fun. Or some believe Satan has had 14 billion years of fun. Really?

 

[DavidPT]

Does it matter to you that there are no 'Land Promises' left to even justify the need for a 1,000 yr period for God to make good to Israel on His promises? Those promises were fulfilled thousands of years ago.

This is one of the biggest reasons Pre-Mills claim that a doctrine, made out of only 7 verses, in a highly symbolic/visionary/spiritual book, with zero corroboration from any other books in the Bible, is even a legitimate doctrine.

Joshua fully closes the book on those promises. There is no justification for any Millennium time period after the 2nd Advent whatsoever; and scripture contradicts the idea repeatedly.

Pre-Mill "can't work" based on all the scriptures that present Christ as reigning King and His kingdom not being on, or of, this earth. There can never be a Mill. time period, upon the earth, after Christ's return that coincides with scripture as a whole.

It simply doesn't fit within the Biblical data.

Why can't I get certain things to agree with the texts involved if Amil is the solution instead? I'm not saying, why can't Amils get certain things to agree with the texts involved if Amil is the solution, I'm saying why can't I? Wouldn't the same be true of Amils, if Premil is assumed the correct position why can't Amils get certain things to agree with the texts involved? Is it my fault if I can't get certain things to agree with the texts involved if Amil is the solution instead? If it is, then it is equally Amil's fault if they can't get certain things to agree with the texts involved if Premil is assumed the correct position instead.

 

[Think...]

You can prove with Biblical data that Israel controlled a flourishing civilization from the whole of the Euphrates River. That is from Turkey to the Persian Gulf. The whole of Euphrates to the whole of the Nile River? You have data from the Bible that they lived in and controlled all that territory?

If they had all that under control, Jonah could have just taken a ferry across the Euphrates River into Nineveh. Palestine would have been on the west bank of the Euphrates River.

A person who comes from a position, "there can never be", has an uphill battle of progress to fight against. Do you think God created this reality for the sole purpose of sin to reign? Your claim rules out that God set aside time for righteousness. People forget that God is not just about "being against sin". God has always had a time of rest that is set aside as Holy and set apart for God, Himself.

Job had a perfect life, then trouble, then back to a perfect life. Yet you all paint a picture that God only created this earth so Satan could have 6,000 years of fun. Or some believe Satan has had 14 billion years of fun. Really?

'WE' (all of us who care what the Truth of scripture is - I hope that includes you) don't need any of that.

We have this - which clears it up nicely:

"And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which He sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it and dwelt therein. ... according to all that He sware unto their fathers ... (Nothing failed) of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass."
Joshua 21:43-45

"... ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the Lord your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof."
Joshua 23:14-15

All God's promises to Israel were paid in full many, many years ago. Do we really need to prove that they lived in and controlled a specific area of land?

There's no remaining obligation for there to be a Millennia of time upon the earth for Israel after Jesus' return, or any other people for that matter.

A "position there can never be"? There's no need for "an uphill battle" when scripture backs us up.

We can all rest assured that when Christ returns, our struggles here in this fallen world are over. No 1,000 year trial period of time followed by more misery from an unleashed devil attempting to deceive us to hell once again. None of that makes any sense at all. To try and make sense of it, Pre-Mills claimed that the promises to Israel had to be fulfilled.

Now, we can see that is not the case.

When the Bible makes sense, it puts great peace into your heart. That is one of the main purposes for God creating it.

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me (God's Word) ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."
John 16:33

 

[Think...]

Why can't I get certain things to agree with the texts involved if Amil is the solution instead? I'm not saying, why can't Amils get certain things to agree with the texts involved if Amil is the solution, I'm saying why can't I? Wouldn't the same be true of Amils, if Premil is assumed the correct position why can't Amils get certain things to agree with the texts involved? Is it my fault if I can't get certain things to agree with the texts involved if Amil is the solution instead? If it is, then it is equally Amil's fault if they can't get certain things to agree with the texts involved if Premil is assumed the correct position instead.

Would you like to discuss some specific texts?

Not really sure what to do with this.

 

[ViaCrucis]

If you are meaning after the 2nd coming in the end of this age, yes I fully realize they don't, because if they did, they would be Premils not Amils. The point of the OP, if the beast is in the pit during the thousand years, Amil is the correct position not Premil. Amil first has to prove with Scripture that the beast is in the pit during the thousand years, in order for this debate between Premil vs Amil to be over with, though.

The beast--whatever/whoever it is and/or represents--is cast into the lake of fire at Christ's coming in judgment. What that means depends a lot on how we understand what "the beast" is, and also how we understand other aspects of the language of the Apocalypse--such as the lake of fire.

Rather than trying to fiddle with impossible to know and endlessly speculative details, the larger theme at work seems rather simple: When Christ returns as Judge of the living and the dead it means the destruction, the end of the beast and its power.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Timtofly]

'WE' (all of us who care what the Truth of scripture is - I hope that includes you) don't need any of that.

We have this - which clears it up nicely:

"And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which He sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it and dwelt therein. ... according to all that He sware unto their fathers ... (Nothing failed) of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass."
Joshua 21:43-45

"... ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the Lord your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof."
Joshua 23:14-15

All God's promises to Israel were paid in full many, many years ago. Do we really need to prove that they lived in and controlled a specific area of land?

There's no remaining obligation for there to be a Millennia of time upon the earth for Israel after Jesus' return, or any other people for that matter.

A "position there can never be"? There's no need for "an uphill battle" when scripture backs us up.

We can all rest assured that when Christ returns, our struggles here in this fallen world are over. No 1,000 year trial period of time followed by more misery from an unleashed devil attempting to deceive us to hell once again. None of that makes any sense at all. To try and make sense of it, Pre-Mills claimed that the promises to Israel had to be fulfilled.

Now, we can see that is not the case.

When the Bible makes sense, it puts great peace into your heart. That is one of the main purposes for God creating it.

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me (God's Word) ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."
John 16:33

The point is not about the promises. The point was they were given the land, but failed in doing their part, and God knew that it was because of sin. So just giving them the land was not the fulfilled deal. You are conflating the land with the promise of righteousness itself. Gabriel pointed that out to Daniel and 70 weeks were determined to still fulfill those promises.

You are correct in that the land was given to them. But that is just the land grant. The righteous kingdom on that land still was not complete, even after the Babylonian captivity.

It was not complete in the first century either. In fact Israel was completely removed from control of that land that was granted to them in Joshua. God does not need the Millennium as you claim. God just promised Israel He, Himself would fulfill that promise after the fulness of the Gentiles.