Good tidings of great joy, which shall be to SOME people?

[enoob57]

The last action the humans adam and eve did before being cast out was blaming, so that's pretty telling.

Listen were not communicating here! I merely quoted Scripture about Adam wasn't deceived but Eve was... then you went on this blaming stuff! People can be so bent on an agenda that they miss the point of the post all together... my original post was in reply to a person who said both, Adam and Eve, were deceived but that was not according to Scripture ~ so I posted the Scripture that clarified what the truth was...

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Listen were not communicating here! I merely quoted Scripture about Adam wasn't deceived but Eve was... then you went on this blaming stuff! People can be so bent on an agenda that they miss the point of the post all together... my original post was in reply to a person who said both, Adam and Eve, were deceived but that was not according to Scripture ~ so I posted the Scripture that clarified what the truth was...

It is possible you meant to reply to another post? I was reconciling what you could possibly mean based on my post.

 

[hedrick]

And here is the Biblical response again.

Loose handling of the Scriptures, distorting them to one's own destruction (2 Peter 3:16), the hallmark of UR.

"Things" are not people, as distinguished in regards to the restoration in Romans 8:22-23.
The restoration of all things

In Mat 19:28 the word things is not present in the Greek. Recreation al all things translates a single word that means rebirth or regeneration. So a literal translation would be “in the renewal,” without an explicit statement of what is being renewed. The obvious understanding is everything. The same word is used in Titus 3:5.

I’ve checked a couple of commentaries. Based on both the context in Matthew and wider Jewish tradition, it seems likely that the renewal was the eschatological renewal of Israel. I don’t think it implies the restoration of every individual, an idea that would be foreign to Matthew’s teaching, though perhaps not Jesus’.

 

[Saint Steven]

except for the truth of Scripture...

Adam was held accountable, not Eve.
I wonder what would have happened if Adam had refused to eat when she offered it to him.
"I'm stuffed, honey. I couldn't eat another bite." - lol

Anyway, what do you do with "the truth" of these scriptures below?
I don't think the Apostle was laying the blame on Eve for the Fall of humankind.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[Hmm]

Got any collateral?

Not much. I'm as poor as a church mouse, if not poorer.

 

[hedrick]

One thing that's obvious from discussions like this is that there's such a variety in even the NT that you can stitch together passages to support all kinds of interesting ideas. But I still think you have to be pretty selective to get either ECT or universalism.

 

[Hmm]

But I still think you have to be pretty selective to get either ECT or universalism.

Is there an alternative? Either we all get saved or we don't, and if we don't what happens to the unsaved - is it eternal life without God, which doesn't make sense because only God can perpetuate a life forever, or complete destruction for which there is even less support than there is for ECT?

 

[enoob57]

Anyway, what do you do with "the truth" of these scriptures below?
I don't think the Apostle was laying the blame on Eve for the Fall of humankind.

Absolutely it was on Adam... God succinctly puts forth this reality:
man was created for the purpose of unto God to the glorifying of God
What is the purpose of man, according to the Bible? | GotQuestions.org
the woman was created for the man
1 Corinthians 11:7 (KJV)
[7] For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
[8] For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
[9] Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

 

[Clare73]

Mercy me.
Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Only for those who accept the conditions of the mercy.

Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Precisely, there is no performance required. . .only faith.

Romans 9:16 NIV
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

Precisely, it is granted through faith alone.

And now UR leads you to prostitute the gospel. . .which is not all it will do.

A word to the wise is sufficient.

 

[Clare73]

Everyone ended up responsible for what went down,

Then everyone is responsible and accountable.

assigning blame accomplishes nothing.

Who made that rule?

Blame is the outcome of responsibility, accountability and consequences.

Are you in favor of a morally equivalent world?

 

[Clare73]

The last action the humans adam and eve
did before being cast out was blaming, so that's pretty telling.

I say your assignation of the meaning of that is what is telling.

 

[Clare73]

Fortunately large parts of the OT are not historical.

How do we know this?

If God actually made that demand, then he would be a murderer.

1 Samuel 15:2-3. . what do babies of your enemy grow up to be. . .allies or enemies?

 

[Clare73]

I recall doing a study which ended inconclusive.

The question of the study is which person of the trinity was in the Old Testament who would "repay offenses back to their face"

Because Jesus says to be like the Father and be kind to those who are hateful to you.

My best guess is the God of the old testament is the Holy Spirit, who does not forgive blasphemy according to Jesus.

I'm thinking the Father who is in charge of justice.

Although Jesus is the judge of all mankind.

Actually, what one does, they all do.

 

[Clare73]

In Mat 19:28 the word things is not present in the Greek. Recreation al all things translates a single word that means rebirth or regeneration. So a literal translation would be “in the renewal,” without an explicit statement of what is being renewed. The obvious understanding is everything. The same word is used in Titus 3:5.

I’ve checked a couple of commentaries. Based on both the context in Matthew and wider Jewish tradition, it seems likely that the renewal was the eschatological renewal of Israel. I don’t think it implies the restoration of every individual, an idea that would be foreign to Matthew’s teaching, though perhaps not Jesus’.

Thanks. . .

Would that renewal not by the one Peter speaks of in 2 Peter 3:12-13, resulting in the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness (the redeemed, as distinct from national Israel); i.e., being the result of renewal in/by the Holy Spirit?

 

[Clare73]

Not much. I'm as poor as a church mouse, if not poorer.

How about the riches that really count?

 

[hedrick]

Is there an alternative? Either we all get saved or we don't, and if we don't what happens to the unsaved - is it eternal life without God, which doesn't make sense because only God can perpetuate a life forever, or complete destruction for which there is even less support than there is for ECT?

I’m guessing something like conditional immortality. There actually is evidence if you read the OT references that lie behind a lot of descriptions of judgement in terms of the original OT context. Is 66:24 is a common reference in these passages, but the worms are eating dead bodies, not torturing live ones. The concern about that is that we know contemporary Jews understood the passage as being about torment. But it wouldn’t be the first time Jesus understood the Bible differently from others.

Even the Revelation could be about the destruction of the damned. The firey pit looks like a lot like that, and that seems like the most obvious meaning of the second death.

 

[hedrick]

Thanks. . .

Would that renewal not by the one Peter speaks of in 2 Peter 3:12-13, resulting in the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness (the redeemed, as distinct from national Israel); i.e., being the result of renewal in/by the Holy Spirit?

I don't think this is necessarily a complete picture of judgement, but Mat 19:28 is pretty clearly about Israel:

"“Truly I tell you, at the renewal [omitting added language], when the Son of Man is seated on the throne of his glory, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

Might it be more than national Israel? I am certainly not claiming that Israel will be all that is present in the judgement. But the prophets certainly envisioned a restoration of the nation, and so does Paul in Rom 11:26.

 

[Saint Steven]

Absolutely it was on Adam... God succinctly puts forth this reality:
man was created for the purpose of unto God to the glorifying of God
What is the purpose of man, according to the Bible? | GotQuestions.org
the woman was created for the man
1 Corinthians 11:7 (KJV)
[7] For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
[8] For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
[9] Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

You objected to my post quoted below.
I'm not trying to create an argument, but if the crime was on
the man (Adam), how is it that he was not deceived?

Did he do it willfully, with full knowledge of his crime?
Why didn't he stop his wife (Eve) if he was not deceived?
Perhaps he was chagrined (oops), since God said nothing about
touching the fruit, probably Adam's addition to the warning.

And the serpent may have demonstrating that
touching the fruit was not lethal. Thus making Adam a liar.
Oops, was that the original sin?
All sorts of complications here.

Saint Steven said: ↑
The serpent initiated the whole transaction.

Saint Steven said: ↑
He and Eve were deceived by the serpent. They had made no willful plans to disobey God that I am aware of.

 

[Saint Steven]

Not much. I'm as poor as a church mouse, if not poorer.

I wonder if a church mouse has treasure in heaven?

 

[Hmm]

I wonder if a church mouse has treasure in heaven?

The squeaky clean ones maybe.