WHY UNIVERSALISM IS NOT TRUE?

[LoveGodsWord]

None continue in sin and unbelief once the obstacles have been removed. I don't believe any of those scriptures support the proposition that man's will to stay wicked can hold out against God's will to have him come to the truth. At worst, they merely stay outside the New Jerusalem until they've washed the robes in the Lake of Fire, which is where salvation takes place.

Which is what I said earlier. I do not see any scripture that says that the wicked are punished in the lake of fire and tortured in to repentance and following God then God gives them eternal life. My bible tells me that the wicked are destroyed after judgement at the second coming and do not see life (*John 3:36 and a further 100+ scriptures already provided here linked).

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Exactly.
I love this comment.

Matthew 21:31 NIV
... Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.

Can you imagine how it just enrages and confuses them, but he's trying to get through their thick prideful skulls!

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Which is what I said earlier. I do not see any scripture that says that the wicked are punished in the lake of fire and tortured in to repentance and following God then God gives them eternal life. My bible tells me that the wicked are destroyed after judgement at the second coming and do not see life (*John 3:36 and a further 100+ scriptures already provided here linked).

The wicked are destroyed by being delivered from wickedess, as new men in Christ. That's what salvation is all about.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Can you imagine how it just enrages and confuses them, but he's trying to get through their thick prideful skulls!

This is why I do not believe in the teachings of Universalism. I believe it is the same lies that the serpent told Eve in the garden of Eden that we can disobey God and not surely die. *Genesis 3:1-5.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The wicked are destroyed by being delivered from wickedess, as new men in Christ. That's what salvation is all about.

Well to me I am finding it difficult to follow what your saying here when Jesus says in John 3:36 that the unbelieving wicked do not see life and the scriptures provided in the OP say that the wicked are destroyed in 100+ scriptures already provided here in the OP.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

This is why I do not believe in Universalism. I believe it is the same lies that the serpent told Eve in the garden of Eden that you can disobey God and not surely die. *Genesis 3:1-5.

So I concede that annihilationism is correct in a sense. The old man of sin is destroyed forever. But that's not the end of the story. The new man is raised up. Lest a grain of wheat fall to the ground and die, it cannot produce fruit.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Well to me I am finding it difficult to follow what your saying here when Jesus says in John 3:36 that the unbelieving wicked do not see life and the scriptures provided in the OP say that the wicked are destroyed in 100+ scriptures already provided here in the OP.

To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus (1 Cor 5:5)

 

[Saint Steven]

To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus (1 Cor 5:5)

That's a good one.
Most claim that reprobation means damnation. Not what this says at all.

 

[ozso]

Really I have and discussed this very topic with other Universalists here in this forum. You might need to speak to more Universalists.

Considering the primary basis of the UR view is that God isn't a torturer, I have to consider your statement of "Universalism teaches that God throws all the wicked in the lake of fire torturing them into repentance" as pure malarkey.

 

[enoob57]

I love God.

Then this verse applies
1 John 4:19 (KJV)
[19] We love him, because he first loved us.

So then our works are results of His love for us and are motivated by that love...

John 14:21 (KJV)
[21] He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Thanks for the reply!

 

[rjs330]

The Christian univsalists I've heard from, especially the ones who are theologians, have been more thorough and dogmatic than you're making them out to be. It's not as superficial as a couple of out of context verses. They claim there is actually more biblical support for it than there is for the eternal torment of most of mankind. And I have seen a lot of biblical support that appears to weigh in their favor. Whereas the biblical support for the opposite doesn't appear to stand up as well. I've seen text used that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with eternal torment. Some of it appears to more likely be national judgment very similar to national judgements given by the prophets before Israel's downfall at the hands of Babylon. Whereas Jesus was saying the same types of things, using the same kind of language, right before Israel's downfall at the hands of Rome.

Interesting because thise I have spoken with and the research on the subject I have done say the exact opposite. The UR people absolutely take scripture out of context. It's not just a few verses like you said and I didn't mean to imply they have just a couple of verses. They use quite a few. But I've found they take them out of context and they also read things into them that are not there.

They really have no strong Biblical support for UR. Even though they claim to. We have the discussions on this forum and everytime a UR person points out a scripture I've been able to show them where the scripture isn't saying what they claim it does.

The subject of what happens after judgement is a different story. Whether it's eternal punishment or annihilation is a different topic all together than UR. Because biblically UR is not supported at all in context.

 

[rjs330]

I think scripture teaches salvation after death. Jesus has conquered death, it's no obstacle. He judges the quick and the dead, and his judgments are righteous. Holds the keys, jailbreaks the prisoners, retrieves the goods, raises the dead etc. That's what the work of the cross was about, the death of mankind in Adam and raising to life anew in Christ.

If like to see these scriptures that say you can be saved after you die.

 

[rjs330]

With respect, that's not the main argument imho. The main argument is that UR glorifies God (and has the most scriptural support). If Salvation is the omega plan, it's no victory to have to concede most of the nuts you created were just too tough for you to crack. Doubt not that even the most cynical unbeliever and wicked sinner is within reach. God will go further to save than the devil can go to destroy, Jesus will go through death and hell to pluck you from the fire. Aye there's your good news, if you can handle it.

And in that glory, the certainty that God will overcome all opposition, are we made more than conquerors. Those who fail to grasp universalism really don't get that God is unlike the others, they just want to make Him a bigger Caesar. Not same same, velly different.

Unfortunately UR has no scriptural support. That's the problem with it. Because Christ deliberately contradicts it's claims and so do the apostles.

 

[BNR32FAN]

None continue in sin and unbelief once the obstacles have been removed. I don't believe any of those scriptures support the proposition that man's will to stay wicked can hold out against God's will to have him come to the truth. At worst, they merely stay outside the New Jerusalem until they've washed the robes in the Lake of Fire, which is where salvation takes place.

Salvation takes place in the lake of fire? So the satan will be saved? The lake of fire is used in contrast to salvation in the scriptures not as a means of it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Unfortunately UR has no scriptural support. That's the problem with it. Because Christ deliberately contradicts it's claims and so do the apostles.

Not everyone who says to Me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven.

 

[ozso]

Interesting because thise I have spoken with and the research on the subject I have done say the exact opposite. The UR people absolutely take scripture out of context. It's not just a few verses like you said and I didn't mean to imply they have just a couple of verses. They use quite a few. But I've found they take them out of context and they also read things into them that are not there.

They really have no strong Biblical support for UR. Even though they claim to. We have the discussions on this forum and everytime a UR person points out a scripture I've been able to show them where the scripture isn't saying what they claim it does.

The subject of what happens after judgement is a different story. Whether it's eternal punishment or annihilation is a different topic all together than UR. Because biblically UR is not supported at all in context.

To me that's the sort of disagreement that exists between a lot of opposing views, doctrines and theologies.

 

[rjs330]

Jesus is our righteousness.
We were all MADE righteous (in God's eyes) by his act of obedience.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

This is another really good example of UR basing doctrine on scripture taken out of context. The context is faith and sin. Because of our faith in Christ we no longer are under the power of sin and should not be living in sin. It's about FAITH in Christ and how we live and are free because of that faith. It is NOT about salvation for all regardless of faith or not.

Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.And not only so, but we also rejoice in our tribulations: knowing that tribulation worketh stedfastness;and stedfastness, approvedness; and approvedness, hope:and hope putteth not to shame; because the love of God hath been shed abroad in our hearts through the Holy Spirit which was given unto us.For while we were yet weak, in due season Christ died for the ungodly.For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: for peradventure for the good man some one would even dare to die.But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him.For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life;and not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. - Romans 5:1-11 Bible Gateway passage: Romans 5:1-11 - American Standard Version

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein?Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection;knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin;for he that hath died is justified from sin.But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him;knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death no more hath dominion over him.For the death that he died, he died unto sin once: but the life that he liveth, he liveth unto God.Even so reckon ye also yourselves to be dead unto sin, but alive unto God in Christ Jesus.Know ye not, that to whom ye present yourselves as servants unto obedience, his servants ye are whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?But thanks be to God, that, whereas ye were servants of sin, ye became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching whereunto ye were delivered;and being made free from sin, ye became servants of righteousness. - Romans 6:1-11,16-18 Bible Gateway passage: Romans 6:1-11, Romans 6:16-18 - American Standard Version

 

[rjs330]

That’s a dangerous position to have brother when we don’t know the whole story.

I've explained this MANY times, but there are those who seem to want to give God human qualities. God is nothing like us and he knows all things and his judgements and actions are ALWAYS righteous and true and trustworthy. I trust him precisely because he is not like us.

 

[rjs330]

The focus of what I'm getting at is it being said no one will be given a second chance after they die to believe. Which I don't necessarily disagree with. But I think it's a good idea to put beliefs to the test. Including the belief regarding belief.

So when it comes to the statement of people won't be given a second chance to believe after they're dead, even if they were, apparently that wouldn't be sufficient. So why use the term "a second chance to believe" in the first place?

It's because we get one chance to believe. That do any mean one chance in our whole life. Our life is the chance. We can believe anytime before we die. A second chance simply refers to another chance to believe after we die.

I hope this clears this up. I feel like people are getting wrapped up in minutea here. One chance simply refers to while we are living. A second chance refers to after we are dead.

 

[rjs330]

You would only say that if you believed that God is a tyrant, right? Otherwise, what's dangerous about it? Does God have anger management issues? (a tyrant)

Saint Steven said: ↑
Someone who does horrible things to others is a tyrant. Whether they claim to have good reasons or not. "Believe or burn" is spiritual extortion. How can such an claim be justified?

God is not human. He does not have human qualities. He is God. His love is not like our love. His anger is not like our anger, his forgiveness and grace is not like our forgiveness and grace. His judgements are not like our judgements. His righteousness and holiness is not like our righteousness and holiness.

He is not us. He is God.