Good tidings of great joy, which shall be to SOME people?

[Clare73]

Ah, so this is your latest distinction is it Clare? God will restore my bike, but as for me, I can take a long ride off a short pier.

God created your bike?
Did I miss that in Genesis?

That would be nonsense. "All" is the "pas", the 'ta panta" all of creation. "Things" is just how the translators have rendered it in an effort to be as inclusive as possible.
Strong's Greek: 3956. πᾶς (pas) -- all, every

So solly. . .pas, sap or ta panta, matters not. . .Romans 8:22-23 distinguishes between and separates creation and "we" (believers), restoration of each at their own time.

And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. (Rev 5:13)

Agreed. . .

 

[Shrewd Manager]

God created your bike?
Did I miss that in Genesis?

Try the Targums?

So solly. . .pas, sap or ta panta, matters not. . .Romans 8:22-23 distinguishes between and separates creation and "we" (believers), restoration of each at their own time.

Don't think so. All means all. The radical all, everything and everyone. Like a deer ta pantas for the fresh streams of water.

Rev 21:5 in the Greek is just "Behold I am making all anew"...except for you, me, her, them and...especially him.

 

[Clare73]

Try the Targums?

Not big on either tar or gum. . .

Don't think so.
All means all. The radical all, everything and everyone. Like a deer ta pantas for the fresh streams of water.

Your issue is with Paul in Romans 8:22-23, take it up with him.

Rev 21:5 in the Greek is just "Behold I am making all anew"...except for you, me, her, them and...especially him.

Agreed. . .

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Your issue is with Paul in Romans 8:22-23, take it up with him.

'Ourselves' is a subset of 'the whole of creation'. Hence the common groaning, for which your attempt at a distinction serves to amplify.

 

[Hmm]

Ah, so this is your latest distinction is it Clare? God will restore my bike, but as for me, I can take a long ride off a short pier.

Don't worry, you're also 'spoke'n for in God's plan of universal restoration.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Don't worry, you're also 'spoke'n for in God's plan of universal restoration.

Thank God it's His plan and not theirs.

 

[Hmm]

Thank God it's His plan and not theirs.

Yes, I think quite a few of us here would be doomed otherwise!

 

[Andrewn]

The logical fallacy there is in saying that UR verses must be interpreted in the light of ECT verses but that ECT verses do not need to be interpreted in the light of UR verses. Pure prejudice! But then again, whoever said that the vision of Jesus presiding over torture chambers is either logical or sane?

You know that Evolution was hypothesized and discussed before Charles Darwin. But he is given the credit because he described a mechanism: natural selection.

There are certainly hints about UR in the NT. But there is no mechanism. It is not surprising that people who ascribe to UR do not agree on the mechanism, the steps involved. To my surprise, I recently discovered that some advocates do not even believe in a post-mortem chance to believe in Christ. To them, belief in Christ is not necessary for salvation!

I may think of a mechanism of restoration, you may think of another mechanism, and so on. But the Bible is ultimately silent on the issue. Its only concern is those who believe and are saved in this life. (It would be interesting to discover everyone's postulated mechanism, but this cannot be done in a public forum).

Thus, one cannot blame those who do not believe in UR, except those who uphold a seemingly unloving view of God.

 

[enoob57]

Rev 21:5 in the Greek is just "Behold I am making all anew"...except for you, me, her, them and...especially him.

When one holds to the inspiration of Scripture every word is important ... all is all

 

[Saint Steven]

To my surprise, I recently discovered that some advocates do not even believe in a post-mortem chance to believe in Christ. To them, belief in Christ is not necessary for salvation!

Not sure if that is in reference to the discussion between you and I or not.

To be clear, there is no salvation without Christ.

The saving work of Christ has already been completed. (in reference to salvation) From my perspective, we don't come to Christ to be saved (as if we were lost prior), we come to Christ to receive what has already been done on our behalf.

 

[Andrewn]

we come to Christ to receive what has already been done on our behalf.

So, we have to come to Christ? IOW, we have to believe?

 

[Saint Steven]

I may think of a mechanism of restoration, you may think of another mechanism, and so on. But the Bible is ultimately is silent on the issue. Its only concern is those who believe and are saved in this life.

This is the best description of the mechanism I have seen in scripture.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 NIV
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

 

[Andrewn]

This is the best description of the mechanism I have seen in scripture.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 NIV
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

This is about builders, preachers. You may generalize it to Christian's work. But certainly it is not a mechanism of salvation of unbelievers.

 

[Hmm]

There are certainly hints about UR in the NT. But there is no mechanism. It is not surprising that people who ascribe to UR do not agree on the mechanism, the steps involved. To my surprise, I recently discovered that some advocates do not even believe in a post-mortem chance to believe in Christ. To them, belief in Christ is not necessary for salvation! I may think of a mechanism of restoration, you may think of another mechanism, and so on. But the Bible is ultimately silent on the issue. Its only concern is those who believe and are saved in this life. (It would be interesting to discover everyone's postulated mechanism, but this cannot be done in a public forum.

IMO, scripture overwhelming supports the idea of universal restoration, which of course is not to say that there are not verses that can't, at least at first reading, be used to argue for eternal torture, and we have seen these endlessly patrolled out by Team Hell here.

I agree that the mechanism for UR is not clear but does that really matter? Everyone reading this is alive now but we don't know exactly why or how we are but does that matter? The important fact is that we are alive and that we have been created by a loving God. Why should understanding the exact mechanism of eternal life matter.more than that?

Thus, one cannot blame those who do not believe in UR, except those who uphold a seemingly unloving view of God

It's binary as I see it. We either all get saved or some of us will be destroyed or live in a state of absence from God forever. The latter alternative represents God as the devil and anyone who chooses that is accountable and I believe will be held accountable by God for that representation of Him because it quite reasonably deters many people from Christianity.

 

[Saint Steven]

So, we have to come to Christ? IOW, we have to believe?

Whether in this life or the afterlife.
Easier to believe when you are face-to-face with the savior. Every knee will bow and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. (on earth, in heaven, and under the earth in the realm of the dead) See Philippians 2:10

 

[Saint Steven]

This is about builders, preachers. You may generalize it to Christian's work. But certainly it is not a mechanism of salvation of unbelievers.

The so-called "unbelievers" are already saved before they are restored. The restoration is not their salvation. Nor is their belief. That scripture says that even those with no works are saved.

 

[enoob57]

The so-called "unbelievers" are already saved before they are restored. The restoration is not their salvation. Nor is their belief. That scripture says that even those with no works are saved.

Upon reading the above this verse popped into mind

Matthew 13:23 (KJV)
[23] But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

 

[Saint Steven]

This is about builders, preachers. You may generalize it to Christian's work. But certainly it is not a mechanism of salvation of unbelievers.

Jesus said...

Mark 9:49 NIV
Everyone will be salted with fire.

 

[Saint Steven]

I may think of a mechanism of restoration, you may think of another mechanism, and so on. But the Bible is ultimately silent on the issue.

God restores us in this lifetime. Is the Bible silent about that? It will basically be the same thing, but in the afterlife where things are more... metaphorical. ???

This is the only mechanism that matters. The results of Christ's finished work on the cross.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[Saint Steven]

Upon reading the above this verse popped into mind

Matthew 13:23 (KJV)
[23] But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

That's good.
"... some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."
What about the rest? Three "some"s is not a SUM total. - lol