Good tidings of great joy, which shall be to SOME people?

[Saint Steven]

Yes. I don't believe in the traditional view of hell which seemed to indicate physical pain. The body conveys physical pain, the body is gone back to dust. It's spiritual pain of unrepentant sin. How tormented they are depends on what they did. Those deserving of more torment will receive it those deserving of less will experience less.

Does God love his enemies? He requires us to love our enemies. (Matthew 5:43-48)

 

[Clare73]

Does God love his enemies? He requires us to love our enemies. (Matthew 5:43-48)

We don't know which of our enemies will actually be his son.

 

[coffee4u]

Good questions.
From my perspective, being saved (as we all are) is not a free pass into heaven. Everyone must be readied for that. Believers and "unbelievers" alike. Universal Restoration means everything (and everyone) gets restored. Like the original creation. New heaven and earth, new inhabitants.

Okay, so which scripture do Universalists use to base this doctrine on?

 

[coffee4u]

Does God love his enemies? He requires us to love our enemies. (Matthew 5:43-48)

God loves us so much that he sent his son so that whoever believes on him has ever lasting life.

But God is also a Holy and just God as well as loving. He sent a global flood and annihilated every living soul not aboard the ark. He rained down fire on the Old Testament cities and struck down Ananias and Sapphira where they stood. God's love is not a 'do whatever makes you happy' kind of tolerance. People confuse tolerance with love.

Which is why when talking to the lady caught in adultery Jesus did not say "I forgive you, keep on doing what makes you happy" he said "I forgive you, go sin no more".
Jesus did not show 'tolerance', if Jesus were alive now people would be vilifying him across social media. How dare he label their promiscuous life style as 'sin'. People think 'sin' is something like murder, no even wrong thinking lustful thoughts is sin and every sin committed was placed upon Jesus. Sin is serious business.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Okay, so which scripture do Universalists use to base this doctrine on?

Is that a trick question? How about Revelation 21:5 - 'Behold, I am making everything new.' That's the consummation, the anakainosis, the baptism of baptisms of fire and the spirit, God's spirit poured out on all flesh, the torrent flowing into the Dead Sea lighting it up with life, the valley of dead bones dancing like deer, the fresh water gushing forth from the desert rocks and from springs in the sea, the abundance of aionion life...and so on and so forth.

 

[misput]

Remember tough love, sometimes love hurts. Love is not just little warm fuzzes. "All" has different meanings, contexts, nuances, as does most words. We do not know all the details of heaven, hell, death, etc, etc., but we can have God's faith that he has it all perfectly figured out, we, not even close, so why pretend?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

All" has different meanings, contexts, nuances, as does most words.

.

 

[misput]

I am UR. But it's not worth fighting about.
My only interest is that people make informed decisions about it.
That can't happen in the current state of ignorance about it.
Have you seen this scripture below? What is salvation the result of?
.

Faith in God, certainly not perfect understanding of scripture. Don't forget to include yourself in "the current state of ignorance".

 

[misput]

You clearly haven't understood a single word of what @Saint Steven has been saying. You are falsely representing him.

Looks like a case of mutual admiration going on here : )

 

[Saint Steven]

Okay, so which scripture do Universalists use to base this doctrine on?

You have already seen these two. There were several points in my post. See below.

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Good questions.
From my perspective, being saved (as we all are) is not a free pass into heaven. Everyone must be readied for that. Believers and "unbelievers" alike. Universal Restoration means everything (and everyone) gets restored. Like the original creation. New heaven and earth, new inhabitants.

 

[Saint Steven]

God loves us so much that he sent his son so that whoever believes on him has ever lasting life.

But God is also a Holy and just God as well as loving. He sent a global flood and annihilated every living soul not aboard the ark. He rained down fire on the Old Testament cities and struck down Ananias and Sapphira where they stood. God's love is not a 'do whatever makes you happy' kind of tolerance. People confuse tolerance with love.

Which is why when talking to the lady caught in adultery Jesus did not say "I forgive you, keep on doing what makes you happy" he said "I forgive you, go sin no more".
Jesus did not show 'tolerance', if Jesus were alive now people would be vilifying him across social media. How dare he label their promiscuous life style as 'sin'. People think 'sin' is something like murder, no even wrong thinking lustful thoughts is sin and every sin committed was placed upon Jesus. Sin is serious business.

The restoration of Sodom and Gomorrah from "eternal" fire

Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Zephaniah 2:9
Therefore, as surely as I live,”
declares the Lord Almighty,
the God of Israel,
“surely Moab will become like Sodom,
the Ammonites like Gomorrah—
a place of weeds and salt pits,
a wasteland forever.
The remnant of my people will plunder them;
the survivors of my nation will inherit their land.”

Ezekiel 16:53
“‘However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them,

 

[Hmm]

Looks like a case of mutual admiration going on here : )

?

 

[Saint Steven]

Okay, so which scripture do Universalists use to base this doctrine on?

The restoration of all things

Matt 19:28
Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Acts 3:21
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Rom 8:20-21
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Romans 5:10
For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

Romans 11:36
For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Isa 65:17
"See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

Rev 21:5
He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!"

 

[Hmm]

The restoration of all things

Matt 19:28
Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Acts 3:21
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Rom 8:20-21
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Romans 5:10
For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

Romans 11:36
For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Isa 65:17
"See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

Rev 21:5
He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!"

Good list and most of those verses are new to me.

No doubt one of the fully paid up members of Team Hell will descend vulturely soon enough and cry "These don't make sense in the light of these verses..." and then proceed to list verses that they believe support eternal torture.

The logical fallacy there is in saying that UR verses must be interpreted in the light of ECT verses but that ECT verses do not need to be interpreted in the light of UR verses. Pure prejudice! But then again, whoever said that the vision of Jesus presiding over torture chambers is either logical or sane?

 

[Saint Steven]

Good list and most of those verses are new to me.

I should have credited @Shrewd Manager for the list. He sent it to me in my formative time sorting through the biblical support for UR. So, thanks to him as well. Here it is again.

The restoration of all things

Matt 19:28
Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Acts 3:21
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Rom 8:20-21
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Romans 5:10
For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

Romans 11:36
For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Isa 65:17
"See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

Rev 21:5
He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!"

 

[Hmm]

Yes, it's pretty conclusive. Christ is the saviour of the whole world and not just the parts of it that are most like me - the people who attend the same denomination/church as me, who sit in the pews nearest to me, wear the same clothes etc.

 

[Clare73]

Is that a trick question? How about Revelation 21:5 - 'Behold, I am making everything new.' That's the consummation, the anakainosis, the baptism of baptisms of fire and the spirit, God's spirit poured out on all flesh, the torrent flowing into the Dead Sea lighting it up with life, the valley of dead bones dancing like deer, the fresh water gushing forth from the desert rocks and from springs in the sea, the abundance of aionion life...and so on and so forth.

We are not "things." That refers to physical creation, as distinguished from humans (Romans 8:22-23).

That is the restoration of all things at the end of time stated by Jesus (Matthew 17:11; Acts 3:21).

 

[Clare73]

The restoration of all things

Loose handling of the Scriptures, distorting them to one's own destruction (2 Peter 3:16), the hallmark of UR.

"Things" are not people, as distinguished in regards to the restoration in Romans 8:22-23.

Matt 19:28
Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Acts 3:21
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Rom 8:20-21
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Romans 5:10
For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

Romans 11:36
For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Isa 65:17
"See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

Rev 21:5
He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!"

 

[Clare73]

I should have credited @Shrewd Manager for the list. He sent it to me in my formative time sorting through the biblical support for UR. So, thanks to him as well. Here it is again.

And here is the Biblical response again.

Loose handling of the Scriptures, distorting them to one's own destruction (2 Peter 3:16), the hallmark of UR.

"Things" are not people, as distinguished in regards to the restoration in Romans 8:22-23.
The restoration of all things

Matt 19:28
Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Acts 3:21
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Rom 8:20-21
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Romans 5:10
For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

Romans 11:36
For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Isa 65:17
"See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

Rev 21:5
He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!"

 

[Shrewd Manager]

We are not "things." That refers to physical creation, as distinguished from humans (Romans 8:22-23).

That is the restoration of all things at the end of time stated by Jesus (Matthew 17:11; Acts 3:21).

Ah, so this is your latest distinction is it Clare? God will restore my bike, but as for me, I can take a long ride off a short pier.

That would be nonsense. "All" is the "pas", the 'ta panta" all of creation. "Things" is just how the translators have rendered it in an effort to be as inclusive as possible.
Strong's Greek: 3956. πᾶς (pas) -- all, every

And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. (Rev 5:13)