Good tidings of great joy, which shall be to SOME people?

[coffee4u]

It seems you have to apply a presupposition to make those verses say, "The second death is for the unbelievers."

The 20:14 reference says that Death and Hades being thrown into the lake of fire is the second death.

The 20:6 reference is in reference to the Millennium. (thousand years)

There are two groups and two separate judgments.
People are helpfully posting what I would have done.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them. They will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.


Believers are judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ.
2 Corinthians 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
This is where the Christian gives an account, not for salvation but for reward.

Salvation is already assured
John 6:40 "Everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

It will be for different rewards in heaven
Matthew 5:11-12
“Blessed are you when men cast insults at you, and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely, on account of Me. Rejoice, and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.”

Matthew 6:20
“But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal…”

Five types of crown in heaven
Crown of Righteousness
2 Tim 4:8

Incorruptible crown
1 Cor 9:25

Crown of life
James 1:12

Crown of glory
1 Pet 5:2 – 4

Crown of Rejoicing
1 Thess 2:19

Christians are the first resurrection. The second death holds no power because the second death is for the unbelieving occurring after the millennium Revelation 20:7-15

 

[Saint Steven]

Christians are the first resurrection. The second death holds no power because the second death is for the unbelieving occurring after the millennium Revelation 20:7-15

Did Jesus die to save you from God?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Hmm]

Did Jesus die to save you from God?

Great question. It's as if God the Father has a big whip in his hand, just dying to punish us for anything we've.done wrong, but God the Son somehow intervenes on our behalf and placates him, just like your mate at school might appease the school bully by saying you're not such a bad chap really.

What's wrong with this, apart from morally, is that it's a view of a god who is composed of separate and competing parts - a Son who is the good cop and a Father who is the bad cop - rather than the Trinitarian God where God is indivisible and holy.

 

[RickReads]

That's the standard response, but does it make sense?

Who would refuse to hear good news?

Those who love the world and the darkness of it. Besides, you have to act on this good news. Hearing the good news is like finding the winning lottery ticket on the street. Wont do you any good unless you turn it in and go through the process of collecting your prize.

 

[Saint Steven]

Those who love the world and the darkness of it. Besides, you have to act on this good news. Hearing the good news is like finding the winning lottery ticket on the street. Wont do you any good unless you turn it in and go through the process of collecting your prize.

I think we are getting hung-up on the word "hear".
I mean "listen", not "act".

Saint Steven said: ↑
That's the standard response, but does it make sense?

Who would refuse to hear good news?

 

[Saint Steven]

It will be for different rewards in heaven

Some who are saved will receive no rewards. Escaping as one through the flames. (1 Corinthians 3:15)

 

[coffee4u]

Did Jesus die to save you from God?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

What a weird thing to say, Jesus is God.

 

[Saint Steven]

What a weird thing to say, Jesus is God.

That's the point.
It makes absolutely no sense to claim that Jesus died to save us from God.
But this seems to be the main position of Christianity.
Though they probably wouldn't state it this way.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Did Jesus die to save you from God?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[coffee4u]

That's the point.
It makes absolutely no sense to claim that Jesus died to save us from God.
But this seems to be the main position of Christianity.
Though they probably wouldn't state it this way.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Did Jesus die to save you from God?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

So are you questioning the trinity?

TBH I don't really understand your position to know what I am debating or what type of answers you are hoping to get.

 

[Saint Steven]

So are you questioning the trinity?

No, not at all.
That's why the idea held by most of Christianity that Jesus died to save us from God is ridiculous.
I asked the question to point out that very inconsistency.

 

[Saint Steven]

TBH I don't really understand your position to know what I am debating or what type of answers you are hoping to get.

My hope was that you wanted to have a better understanding of UR.
I'm not trying to convince you, just to inform you.
Not even much interested in rebuttal or debate.
I am not very convincing anyway.
Provoking, perhaps. But not convincing. Admittedly a personal shortcoming.
No one has to believe in UR to make it true. It just is. IMHO

What do you see when you picture God?

 

[coffee4u]

My hope was that you wanted to have a better understanding of UR.
I'm not trying to convince you, just to inform you.
Not even much interested in rebuttal or debate.
I am not very convincing anyway.
Provoking, perhaps. But not convincing. Admittedly a personal shortcoming.
No one has to believe in UR to make it true. It just is. IMHO

I thought you were UR, but I don't really know enough about it nor am I invested enough to argue about it.

I believe unbelievers go to hell which to me is where the soul will be tormented by their own sin. Where they will get to think constantly about their sin and how they rejected God. That believers go to heaven, and that these two places are the 'waiting rooms' until the end. Then God will remake the earth and the ungodly are annihilated in the second death.

What do you see when you picture God?

Jesus, but also a loving father. I do know that we can't know what Christ looked like apart from the fact that he was middle eastern.

 

[misput]

So are you questioning the trinity?

TBH I don't really understand your position to know what I am debating or what type of answers you are hoping to get.

He is trying to separate works from faith and Jesus from God so he can have universal salvation.

 

[Hmm]

He is trying to separate works from faith and Jesus from God so he can have universal salvation.

You clearly haven't understood a single word of what @Saint Steven has been saying. You are falsely representing him.

 

[Saint Steven]

Jesus, but also a loving father. I do know that we can't know what Christ looked like apart from the fact that he was middle eastern.

Does that fit the description of what you believe will happen to "unbelievers"? A loving Father?

I believe unbelievers go to hell which to me is where the soul will be tormented by their own sin. Where they will get to think constantly about their sin and how they rejected God. That believers go to heaven, and that these two places are the 'waiting rooms' until the end. Then God will remake the earth and the ungodly are annihilated in the second death.

 

[Saint Steven]

I thought you were UR, but I don't really know enough about it nor am I invested enough to argue about it.

I am UR. But it's not worth fighting about.
My only interest is that people make informed decisions about it.
That can't happen in the current state of ignorance about it.
Have you seen this scripture below? What is salvation the result of?

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[coffee4u]

Does that fit the description of what you believe will happen to "unbelievers"? A loving Father?

Yes. I don't believe in the traditional view of hell which seemed to indicate physical pain. The body conveys physical pain, the body is gone back to dust. It's spiritual pain of unrepentant sin. How tormented they are depends on what they did. Those deserving of more torment will receive it those deserving of less will experience less.
The second death is God's mercy, for without it they would have eternal spiritual torment. I believe that is the end completely for them.

Do you believe Hitler, a child rapist and those who spat in God's face should get a free pass and will be enjoying heaven?

 

[Saint Steven]

Do you believe Hitler, a child rapist and those who spat in God's face should get a free pass and will be enjoying heaven?

No. There are no "free" passes to get into heaven.
In fact, I think it will be MORE difficult for a "believer" to enter heaven than a "sinner". (Matthew 21:31)

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

 

[coffee4u]

No. There are no "free" passes to get into heaven.
In fact, I think it will be MORE difficult for a "believer" to enter heaven than a "sinner". (Matthew 21:31)

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

But Universalism teaches the salvation of all people, or so says Google.
Universalism | Christianity

Universalism, belief in the salvation of all souls

So why wouldn't Hitler and a child rapist be enjoying heaven?

 

[Saint Steven]

But Universalism teaches the salvation of all people, or so says Google.
Universalism | Christianity

So why wouldn't Hitler and a child rapist be enjoying heaven?

Good questions.
From my perspective, being saved (as we all are) is not a free pass into heaven. Everyone must be readied for that. Believers and "unbelievers" alike. Universal Restoration means everything (and everyone) gets restored. Like the original creation. New heaven and earth, new inhabitants.