Are NC Christians Lawless like Sabbath observers Claim?

[YeshuaFan]

According to the scriptures all of God's 10 commandments are repeated in the new covenant as the standard of Christian living (scripture support here and here linked). See all the scriptures posted in post # 70 linked here. What is it in the scriptures posted there from my earlier post that you disagree with? God's Church according to the scriptures are all those who believe and follow what God's Word says (John 10:26-27; Matthew 7:21).

Give to us ANY NT Epistle that stated that under the NC, the Church is placed under the Sabbath!

 

[YeshuaFan]

I have enjoyed all the posts even if some veered from the OP. Now could we get back on track and tell us why some would call new covenant Christians lawless?

Those doing that are still under the Mosaic law!

 

[BABerean2]

None of those scriptures say the 4th commandment is deleted

You are correct. Hebrews 8:13 says the Old Covenant is now "obsolete". Do you know the difference between "deleted" and "obsolete"?


Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


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[daq]

You are correct. Hebrews 8:13 says the Old Covenant is now "obsolete". Do you know the difference between "deleted" and "obsolete"?


Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


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Is it right for translators to insert the word covenant in Hebrews 8:13, (and Hebrews 8:7), when it doesn't appear in Greek texts? That sure seems misleading to me: for what if the author is actually speaking about the old and the new-renewed interpretations of the covenant?

 

[BABerean2]

Is it right for translators to insert the word covenant in Hebrews 8:13, (and Hebrews 8:7), when it doesn't appear in Greek texts? That sure seems misleading to me: for what if the author is actually speaking about the old and the new-renewed interpretations of the covenant?

I understand your point.

However, Hebrews 8:6-13 is clearly about the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

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[daq]

I understand your point.

However, Hebrews 8:6-13 is clearly about the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

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The way in which kainos is used in the N/T, and in that passage, (comparing the LXX version of the Jeremiah passage with what is in the Hebrew text), tells me that kainos is used in the sense of renewed. That would mean that the author of Hebrews speaks of the old way of understanding in regards to what was about to pass away. That's the most likely reason why he omits the word for covenant in those two statements.

 

[eleos1954]

Sorry, I totally disagree with your assessment. God spoke 603 laws to Moses and he wrote them in the Book of the Law. As to the 10 commandments being the Royal Law of Love, I submit to you that their is not one word about loving God or man in the ten. Each one is about duty. How the Israelites reacted to the ten is a different story.


Not one of those verses tell us it is referring to the ten commandments. I fact you quoted Jn15:10 where from verse 9 to verse14 Jesus is giving us a new commandment, not the law which He kept but the real Law of Love. Love others as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. Would you like to know the commands Christians are under? 1Jn 3:
19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.



I certainly didn't label Sabbath as a tradition. Where did you get that idea? I do label Sabbath as a ritual command just as the Jews do. As to following in Jesus steps, maybe you should take a closer look at His steps. He kept the commands of the old covenant, Every command that would have pertained to him He kept perfectly. That included keeping the new moon celebrations, the eight feast days, the wearing of the Tzitzits on the corners of His apparel just to name a few. Are you really following in Jesus steps or just giving lip service to others?

Is this what you have been taught? I would be looking for another teacher. First of all six of the ten were not concerning the neighbor. Secondly none of them demanded that the Israelites were to love any of the ten.


Amen! Love is the greatest command

Tell us what that really means?


The Gospel is not going around trying to convince others to observe the Sabbath given only to the Israelites. Walking in His way doesn't mean keeping a bunch of ritual laws given only to the Israelites.


Thank the Lord because if it were left up to the churches and its members........

love others as I have loved you. Read 1Jn 3:19-24 again.


I believe in Jesus and the one who sent Him so according to JN5:24 I won't come under judgement. I gather you thing it is how well you were able to keep the Sabbath. The truth is it isn't the works of the law that save us it is our faith and God's Grace.

Romans 2


The only law the doers are required to do is to love others as Jesus loves us. The law you thinking the verse is referring to had 613 commands and ended at Sinai.

I can attest that it is the Royal Law of Love which is expressed in Jn 15 verses 9-14. Good luck trying to keep all the laws Jesus kept.

[/QUOTE]

well .... some law has existed since before creation .... as the first sin committed was by satan and the 1/3 in heaven.

Do you ever sin? What is sin? The 10 describe our relationship with God and our relationship with man. What is wrong with the 10 that they should be done away with?

The law exists else there can not be any judgement. Yes, we are saved by God's grace and the faith of Jesus .... and not of our works ..... we will be deemed innocent (not that we are) because of Jesus.

Matthew 5:17

Berean Study Bible
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them.

What law has NOT been abolished?

“The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.” Psalm 19:7.

Even as natural law is unchangeable, so moral law cannot be changed. In Psalm 119 God’s moral law is described as “pure,” “the truth,” and “righteousness.” This being the very nature of God Himself, indicates that the moral law is a transcript of His nature.

What is His nature? God is love.

“The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.” Psalm 111:7, 8.

“But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.” James 1:25

James in chapter 1 verse 25 refers to God’s law as a law of liberty.

“If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.” James 2:8-12.

Obviously the above are referring to the 10. The 10 ARE laws of love.

Isaiah 42:21 ►

The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law (not get rid of it), and make it honourable. (and He did)

The law that was abolished are the cerimonial laws within the earthly temple system. Jesus became our high priest and His sacrifice is for all for all time ... so there is no need for an earthly sanctuary system ... Jesus now ministers from the temple in heaven (the real one)

Philippians 1:6

New Living Translation
And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.

What is the work God does and continues to do in the believer? Helps us to overcome sin .... what is sin? transgression of the law.

Romans 3

31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Certainly not! Instead, we uphold the law.

Romans 3:20

For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

It is the law that let's us know what sin is .... the work of the Holy Spirit helps us to avoid it/overcome it. When we are able to keep the law (overcome sin) it is by the grace of God. Glory to God for helping us to overcome sin.

 

[BABerean2]

The way in which kainos is used in the N/T, and in that passage, (comparing the LXX version of the Jeremiah passage with what is in the Hebrew text), tells me that kainos is used in the sense of renewed. That would mean that the author of Hebrews speaks of the old way of understanding in regards to what was about to pass away. That's the most likely reason why he omits the word for covenant in those two statements.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


The passage above says it is not according to the Sinai Covenant.

It says nothing about a "renewal" of a covenant.

In Galatians 4:24-31 the Apostle Paul told the Galatian believers to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage".


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[daq]

It says nothing about a "renewal" of a covenant.

Yes, it does.
H2319 hadash = G2537 kainos (LXX, Heb 8:8)

In Galatians 4:24-31 the Apostle Paul told the Galatian believers to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage".

No, he didn't.

Galatians 4:26-27 KJV
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.[Isaiah 54:1]

Isaiah 54:1-3 KJV
1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.[Galatians 4:27]
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

So then, according to Paul, Yerushalem of above is my mother covenant, and of course, the passage he quotes from here pictures Yerushalem as the Mishkan-Tabernacle of the Torah, the Tabernacle of Elohim.

Exodus 20:12 KJV
12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

 

[BABerean2]

No, he didn't.

Galatians 4:26-27 KJV
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.[Isaiah 54:1]

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.


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[daq]

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.


.

So you do not see that Sarah is being juxtaposed against Hagar? or that Sarah is being likened to Yerushalem of above? or that Yerushalem of above is being likened to the correct understanding of the two covenants which he is speaking about in this passage?

The answer is right there in what you quoted:

Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

It is the same juxtaposition of the flesh -vs- the Spirit which Paul speaks so much about in his writings. Those who view the covenant according to the flesh and the physical mindset either reject it entirely, as many here do, or they accept it according to the flesh and the mind of the flesh and end up doing the "works of the law" which cannot save them.

Those who view the covenant in the new-renewed way of understanding walk in the same Torah but according to the new-renewed Spirit also foretold in the Prophets, (Ezekiel 11:19-20, Ezekiel 36:26-27), by way of the Testimony of the Messiah in the Gospel accounts.

The two are the same covenant but viewed through two different sets of eyes. The one who sees all things according to the eyes and mind of the natural and physical minded old man nature is the one who abides in Hagar because he or she walks according to the flesh and the mind of the flesh.

The one who is renewed in heart and mind, and made into a new creature, goes back into the womb of his or her mother, (Yerushalem of above, our mother, (covenant)), and begins the process of relearning all things according to the doctrine, teachings, and Testimony of the Messiah which is freely provided to us by the grace of Elohim in the Gospel accounts.

If Nicodemus the Teacher of Yisrael can do it, (John 19:39), and if Paul a Pharisee of Pharisees can do it, (Galatians 1:14-16), and if it is also true of even Timothy, (2 Timothy 3:15), then no doubt we can all do the same. Moreover this is not something new, for the Prophets Yeshayah and Yirmeyah also speak of these things, (Isaiah 44:2-24, Isaiah 49:1, Jeremiah 1:5).

Moreover the answer to Nicodemus in John 3:4-5 is literally "Amen, amen", and that is a double affirmation: the first amen literally means "So be it", and is therefore the answer to his question in John 3:4. The second amen, (verily or truly), pertains to what follows.

All one needs to do is actually understand and believe what Paul says in the Galatians passage you are quoting from: Yerushalem of above is indeed your mother, (covenant, because it is an allegory of the two covenants), and therefore you can indeed "go back into the womb of your mother" and relearn everything according to the new-renewed way that the Messiah has shown to us by his Testimony, doctrine, parables, proverbs, sayings, idioms, and teachings in the Gospel accounts. Moreover Paul teaches the commandments of the Master, just as he says in several places, (1 Corinthians 14:37, 1 Thessalonians 4:1-2).

PS: Since this isn't the thread topic I'll leave it here.
Nice chatting.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

That made my day. It is good to start the day with a good chuckle. You know the old adage "the pot calling the kettle black". how apropos to your comment about another. Have a great day.

Not really Bob, the only thing I have cut and pasted here is three commentaries in regards to Colossians 2:16 from post # 88 linked. So your making claims here that are not truthful. You have a nice day to.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Give to us ANY NT Epistle that stated that under the NC, the Church is placed under the Sabbath!

I already did in the post you are quoting from. According to the scriptures all of God's 10 commandments are repeated in the new covenant scriptures as the standard of Christian living (scripture support here and here linked). See all the scriptures posted in post # 70 linked here. What is it in the scriptures posted there from my earlier post that you disagree with? God's Church according to the scriptures are all those who believe and follow what God's Word says (John 10:26-27; Matthew 7:21). Click on the linked posts here and here.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Those doing that are still under the Mosaic law!

No one is "under the law" unless they stand before God guilty of breaking the law according to Romans 3:19 which Gods' Word defines as sin which is the transgression of the law. Gods' Word does not teach lawlessness or disobedience to Gods' law as through the law we have a knowledge of what sin is which is breaking the law and not believing what Gods' Word says (Romans 14:23)

Romans 3:20 [20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

1 John 3:4 [4], Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Romans 3:19 [19], Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Take care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You are correct. I keep posting what was plainly written in the New Testament almost 2,000 years ago, while you keep quoting the doctrine of the so-called "prophetess" Ellen G. White

As shown already from the scriptures alone in post # 86; post # 87; post # 88 and post # 89 linked, when context is added back into the discussion there was not a single scripture that you posted that says Gods' law or anyone of God's 10 commandments have been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday or the first day of the week as a holy day of rest in honor of the resurrection of Jesus. You show me where I have once quoted you EGW in this entire forum? That claim in your post has no basis in fact or truth. The linked posts provided above are there for all to see if your claims here are true or not true. If you disagree with the scripture contexts provided in the linked posts above your welcome to show why you disagree. Until then of course we will agree to disagree because God's Word does not teach lawlessness (without law).

I also quoted the Early Church Fathers who lived before the Council of Nicea, while you keep quoting the doctrine of Ellen G. White. The Early Church Fathers revealed the fact that the First Century Church met on the first day of the week, because it is the day Christ rose from the dead. You ignore what the Early Church Fathers said and quote the doctrine of Ellen G. White.

More untruth? Once again please link me to a single quote from EGW that I have provided in my responses to you from the scriptures in post # 86; post # 87; post # 88 and post # 89 linked or anywhere else in this forum? If I have only provided scripture for my views and not responded to a single post that you or anyone else has said in this thread with EGW quotes why are you pretending that I have? The linked posts provided here show who is telling the truth and who is not so I do not need to say any more in this regard. Only scripture has been provided here showing the context you left out of the scriptures you provided in your earlier posts and show why the interpretation you were applying to them that God's law is abolished was not biblical. I am still awaiting a response from you. You were provided scripture. In response you also claim early Church fathers that disagree with scripture. Should we not just simply believe and follow Jesus and the Apostles and prophets who gave us Gods' Word and the scriptures? Or should we instead believe and follow people outside of the bible that give us the teachings and traditions of men that lead us away from the scriptures to break the commandments of God and disobey scripture? Jesus dear friend (not me) says that if we knowingly follow the teachings and traditions of men (e.g. so called early Church fathers over scripture) that lead us to break the commandments of God we are not worshiping God in Matthew 15:3-9. If then by following man-made teachings and traditions that lead us to break the commandments of God who then are we following God or man?

Many Adventists claim meeting on the first day is the "mark" of the beast. Do you think this idea is found below?

SDA's claim no such thing. The "Mark of the Beast" according to Revelation 13 and Revelation 14 only takes place when someone is given a knowledge of the truth of Gods' Word and rejects it in order to follow the man-made teaching and tradition of "Sunday worship when it is enforced by civil law. If you want to talk more about this you will have to go to the Traditional Adventist forum.

Joh_20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

Act_20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

1Co_16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Which one of the scriptures that you have provided here says anywhere that God's 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest in honor of the resurrection of Jesus? - Not a single one of them. According to the scriptures Gods' people met every single day of the week to worship God as shown in

• Acts of the Apostles 2:46-47 where it says [46], And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, [47], Praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Now worshiping God daily does not mean that every day is a holy day of rest now does it? Look at the scriptures you provided...

• John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

Note: The disciples were gathered together on the first day of the week for "fear of the Jews" because they killed Jesus a few days earlier.

• Acts of the Apostles 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Note: The reason why the disciples were meeting together was because Paul was departing and leaving them the next day.

• 1 Corinthians 16:2 (King James Bible) Upon the {1}. first day of the week let every one of you {2}. lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, {3}. that there be no gatherings when I come.

• 1 Corinthians 16:2 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English) {1}. On every Sunday, let each person of you {2}. lay aside in his house and keep that which he can, {3}. so that when I come there will be no collections.

The sections of 1 Corinthians 16:2 are broken down into context order within the scripture for discussion here as marked above in the last two parallel scripture examples above.

So the command given by Paul for the collection of the saints here is that {1} on the first day of the week (every Sunday) let every person {2} lay by him in store - The Greek being παρ ̓ ἑαυτῷ τιθέτω θησαυρίζων par' heautō tithetō thēsaurizōn. Meaning let him lay up at home (by himself), treasuring up as he has been prospered. The Greek phrase, "by himself," means, the same as at home. Let him set it apart by himself at home; let him designate a certain portion; let him do this by himself, when he is at home. Let him set it aside and put it in store, separate it and save it up, as God hath prospered him - The word "God" is not in the original, but it is evidently understood, and necessary to the sense. The word rendered "hath prospered" (εὐοδῶται euodōtai)

Now note the reason here for this command within the scripture is given in the same verse in the last section of the scripture {3} That there be no gatherings when I come - No collections λογίαι logiai, 1 Corinthians 16:1). The apostle means that there should be no trouble in collecting the small sums; that it should all be prepared; that each one might have laid by what he could give; and that all might be ready to be handed over to him, or to whomsoever they might choose to send with it to Jerusalem.

..................

Now what scripture have you provided here that says Gods 4th commandment of the 10 commandments has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest in honor of the resurrection of Jesus? - Not a single scripture. There is not a single scripture in all of the bible that says God's 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest in honor of the resurrection of Jesus. It is Jesus alone that warns us that if we knowingly choose to follow man-made teachings and traditions that lead us away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God we are not worshiping God in Matthew 15:3-9. Who should we believe and follow therefore God or man? *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29. God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth *John 4:23-24. God is calling us all out (John 10:16; Revelation 18:1-5) from following man-made teachings and traditions that lead us away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God back to His Word so we can worship Him in Spirit and in truth. God is Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth. God's sheep where ever they might be will hear His voice (the Word) and follow him. Those who do not hear and do not follow are not His sheep according to Jesus in John 10:26-27.

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You are correct. Hebrews 8:13 says the Old Covenant is now "obsolete". Do you know the difference between "deleted" and "obsolete"? Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away..

This has already been addressed with a detailed scripture response as well as your other claims in post # 86; post # 87; post # 88; post # 89 and post # 115 linked. The scriptures provided in the linked posts above show the context that you left out of the scriptures you have provided that disagree with your interpretation of the scriptures. If you disagree please respond. Of course you do not have to if you do not want to. I will leave it between you and God and perhaps you can pray about it. God's Word does not teach lawlessness (without law or Gods' law is abolished).

Take Care.

 

[BABerean2]

So you do not see that Sarah is being juxtaposed against Hagar? or that Sarah is being likened to Yerushalem of above? or that Yerushalem of above is being likened to the correct understanding of the two covenants which he is speaking about in this passage?

The answer is right there in what you quoted:

Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

It is the same juxtaposition of the flesh -vs- the Spirit which Paul speaks so much about in his writings. Those who view the covenant according to the flesh and the physical mindset either reject it entirely, as many here do, or they accept it according to the flesh and the mind of the flesh and end up doing the "works of the law" which cannot save them.

Those who view the covenant in the new-renewed way of understanding walk in the same Torah but according to the new-renewed Spirit also foretold in the Prophets, (Ezekiel 11:19-20, Ezekiel 36:26-27), by way of the Testimony of the Messiah in the Gospel accounts.

The two are the same covenant but viewed through two different sets of eyes. The one who sees all things according to the eyes and mind of the natural and physical minded old man nature is the one who abides in Hagar because he or she walks according to the flesh and the mind of the flesh.

The one who is renewed in heart and mind, and made into a new creature, goes back into the womb of his or her mother, (Yerushalem of above, our mother, (covenant)), and begins the process of relearning all things according to the doctrine, teachings, and Testimony of the Messiah which is freely provided to us by the grace of Elohim in the Gospel accounts.

If Nicodemus the Teacher of Yisrael can do it, (John 19:39), and if Paul a Pharisee of Pharisees can do it, (Galatians 1:14-16), and if it is also true of even Timothy, (2 Timothy 3:15), then no doubt we can all do the same. Moreover this is not something new, for the Prophets Yeshayah and Yirmeyah also speak of these things, (Isaiah 44:2-24, Isaiah 49:1, Jeremiah 1:5).

Moreover the answer to Nicodemus in John 3:4-5 is literally "Amen, amen", and that is a double affirmation: the first amen literally means "So be it", and is therefore the answer to his question in John 3:4. The second amen, (verily or truly), pertains to what follows.

All one needs to do is actually understand and believe what Paul says in the Galatians passage you are quoting from: Yerushalem of above is indeed your mother, (covenant, because it is an allegory of the two covenants), and therefore you can indeed "go back into the womb of your mother" and relearn everything according to the new-renewed way that the Messiah has shown to us by his Testimony, doctrine, parables, proverbs, sayings, idioms, and teachings in the Gospel accounts. Moreover Paul teaches the commandments of the Master, just as he says in several places, (1 Corinthians 14:37, 1 Thessalonians 4:1-2).

PS: Since this isn't the thread topic I'll leave it here.
Nice chatting.

I can see that Paul is comparing the Sinai Covenant to Hagar the bondwoman.

I can also see that Paul told the Galatian believers to "cast out" the bondwoman.

Others here can read just as well as I can, and I will let them read the text for themselves.

They can also read Hebrews 12:18-24.
We are not come to Mount Sinai in verse 18, but we are come instead to the New Covenant of Mount Zion in verses 22-24.

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[YeshuaFan]

You are correct. Hebrews 8:13 says the Old Covenant is now "obsolete". Do you know the difference between "deleted" and "obsolete"?


Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


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Mosaic law and the sabbath passed away with it now!

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Mosaic law and the sabbath passed away with it now!

There is not a single scripture in all of God's Word that says Gods 4th commandment or anyone of God's 10 commandments have been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest in honor of the resurrection of Jesus. Sunday worship as a replacement for God's 4th commandment is a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God. Jesus says in Matthew 15:3-9 that if we knowingly follow after man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God we are not worshiping God. This then begs the question who do we worship; God or man? Perhaps your mixing up the "shadow laws" for remission of sins under the earthly Priesthood with God's eternal law in the new covenant that give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *see the new covenant scriptures in Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; also Psalms 119:172.

Take Care.

 

[daq]

I can see that Paul is comparing the Sinai Covenant to Hagar the bondwoman.

I can also see that Paul told the Galatian believers to "cast out" the bondwoman.

Others here can read just as well as I can, and I will let them read the text for themselves.

They can also read Hebrews 12:18-24.
We are not come to Mount Sinai in verse 18, but we are come instead to the New Covenant of Mount Zion in verses 22-24.

.

Forgive me but I feel the need to offer one more response to this subject matter, the reason being, that this is what happens when we ignore the background context in the Torah. Paul is clearly leaving certain things out of the text, probably in hopes that the reader will do his or her own investigation into the things he is speaking about. Therefore I will offer what I see from the background context which I feel Paul has intentionally left out and let others decide whether or not they agree with what I offer here. Essentially then, because of how you have responded, I would like to point those reading this exchange to other important things that are in the background context.

Does Paul mention Sarah? No, but there is surely a juxtaposition here between Hagar and Sarah. The same goes for Yishmael: does he mention Yishmael? No, but there is surely a juxtaposition between Yishmael and Yitzhak, in fact, the whole reason for the "cast out the bondwoman" statement is because Sarah heard Yishmael mocking, (Genesis 21:9-10). All of the examples are the same, even though some are not mentioned by Paul in the passage, and all of them are what amounts to "the flesh -vs- the Spirit" argument.

From Torah background contexts:
Hagar -vs- Sarah
Yishmael -vs- Yitzhak
bondwoman -vs- freewoman
born after the flesh -vs- by the promise
Sinai (of below) -vs- Horeb (of above)
Yerushalem (of below) -vs- Yerushalem of above
the flesh -vs- the Spirit

It is quite clear in this manner that the covenant is renewed by way of the Testimony of the Messiah in the Gospel accounts. There is no reason to do away with it, if one believes this, because the supernal understanding frees us from the bondage of the natural man understanding of the covenant which merely produces "the works of the law" according to the flesh. The whole point according to Paul is to have the veil lifted when we read the Torah, not to abolish it, and that veil over the heart, mind, and eyes can only be done away in Messiah: and he doesn't abolish the Torah, rather he expounds it for us in the supernal and spiritual way that is pleasing to the Father in all his discourse throughout the Gospel accounts.