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Are NC Christians Lawless like Sabbath observers Claim?

LoveGodsWord

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We are no longer under the Mosaic law, but under NT grace!
Indeed we are not under the Mosaic "shadow laws" for remission of sins which have now all been fulfilled and continued in Christ to who they pointed to. We are not discussing these. We are discussing God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7). According to the scriptures, grace is given to us to teach us to be obedience to the faith *Romans 1:5 not disobedience to the faith (see also Titus 2:11-12). According to the scriptures, genuine faith is demonstrated in obeying what God's Word says not disobeying what God's Word says (see James 2:13-26). God's 10 commandments according to the scriptures, are not the same as the Mosaic "shadow laws" for remission of sins. Gods' 10 commandments are Gods' eternal laws that give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) see the new covenant scriptures Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172. According to James if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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sabbath never was placed back upon the Church!
According to the scriptures all of God's 10 commandments are repeated in the new covenant as the standard of Christian living (scripture support here and here linked). See all the scriptures posted in post # 70 linked here. What is it in the scriptures posted there from my earlier post that you disagree with? God's Church according to the scriptures are all those who believe and follow what God's Word says (John 10:26-27; Matthew 7:21).
 
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DamianWarS

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Fulfilled does not mean the opposite of what Jesus said. Jesus said Matthew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Does not sound like any commandment has ended or Jesus is okay with us breaking.
I'm just going to highlight this as it seems the most foundational. Jesus here scolds the person who "breaks one of the least of these commandments".

Clearly, you value the Sabbath commandment as one of the greatest but my question to you is which are the least? and do you value those commandments too? There's a lot of elevating the 10 but here Christ takes a step back and tells us to even focus on the least. When I read these words I see Christ addressing the entire law not just the 10, including the stuff we think is silly, like mixing grains or thread and trimming beards and I see his audience receiving it that same way.

I don't know what you follow and what you don't but I cannot see how you can use this verse to support keeping the 10 commandments but at the same time having commandments you don't keep. We do not keep sacrificial law for example does that mean we break sacrificial law, or throw it away? Absolutely not, we have strong value for it but know that Christ is our sacrifice so we no longer need to keep the law but at the same time do not break the law.

I see Sabbath law the same way and I do not keep the Sabbath law yet I do not break it and still have high value for it because Christ has accomplished it for me. The direction of Sabbath law points to our very breath and heartbeat as work, you can even argue the law demands this as ultimately the law does demand death but it has accommodation for what humans are physically able to do as the sabbath is made for man not man for the sabbath. But Christ takes it another level, he keeps the sabbath according to the law but he also appeases its demand of death. And while in death he is without breath or heartbeat during the course of the Sabbath thus being able to keep the sabbath like no other before him so he has completed the Sabbath and I seek Christ for that rest.

there is also deep spiritual meaning in the Sabbath too. creation starts in chaos, it is unformed, empty and dark, the opposite of rest and is of unrest. Then God speaks light and a transformation happens that ends in something organized, called out, formed, bountiful and full of light, and of rest and peace. The creation account is a salvation metaphor (regardless of how you approach the literalness) and the end is the goal, that goal is rest but not physical rest, but the rest only God can have and only God can give. That is the rest I seek, and I recognize I cannot take it for myself and it must be given to me so I seek the one who can give it to me. I do not keep the sabbath according to the law yet I also do not break it because I seek it through Christ and what he gives I know to be far better than what I can accomplish myself which is nothing in the spiritual.

it starts at reconciling Mat 5:19 and surrendering this idea that we actually keep all the commandments. Even if we have a high value of specific commandments we do not keep the least of them or the ones that we have judged in favor of not keeping them according to the law. Now ask the question why do we keep some but the ones deemed the least we do not keep? May I suggest we don't keep them according to law, but we also don't break them (or teach others to break them) because its fulfillment is in Christ and that's what we proclaim.
 
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BABerean2

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According to the scriptures all of God's 10 commandments are repeated in the new covenant as the standard of Christian living (scripture support here and here linked). See all the scriptures posted in post # 70 linked here. What is it in the scriptures posted there from my earlier post that you disagree with? God's Church according to the scriptures are all those who believe and follow what God's Word says (John 10:26-27; Matthew 7:21).

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.


Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


In the passage below we are not come to Mount Sinai, but we are come instead to the New Covenant of Mount Zion.

Heb 12:18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, (Mount Sinai)

Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

========================

Col 2:16 Let no one, then, judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or of a new moon, or of sabbaths,

Col 2:17 which are a shadow of the coming things, and the body is of the Christ; (YLT)



Early Church Fathers who lived before the Council of Nicaea on the Sabbath:


Ignatius of Antioch

If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death—whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master(Letter to the Magnesians(shorter) Chapter IX.—Let us live with Christ [A.D. 110]).

During the Sabbath He continued under the earth in the tomb in which Joseph of Arimathæa had laid Him. At the dawning of the Lord’s day He arose from the dead, according to what was spoken by Himself, “As Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly, so shall the Son of man also be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” The day of the preparation, then, comprises the passion; the Sabbath embraces the burial; the Lord’s Day contains the resurrection(The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians Longer Versions. Chapter IX.—Reference to the history of Christ.)

Justin Martyr

The Lawgiver is present, yet you do not see Him; to the poor the Gospel is preached, the blind see, yet you do not understand. You have now need of a second circumcision, though you glory greatly in the flesh. The new law requires you to keep perpetual sabbath, and you, because you are idle for one day, suppose you are pious, not discerning why this has been commanded you: and if you eat unleavened bread, you say the will of God has been fulfilled. The Lord our God does not take pleasure in such observances: if there is any perjured person or a thief among you, let him cease to be so; if any adulterer, let him repent; then he has kept the sweet and true sabbaths of God. If any one has impure hands, let him wash and be pure.(Dialogue with Trypho the Jew Chapter XII.—The Jews violate the eternal law, and interpret ill that of Moses.)

For we too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined you,—namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your hearts. For if we patiently endure all things contrived against us by wicked men and demons, so that even amid cruelties unutterable, death and torments, we pray for mercy to those who inflict such things upon us, and do not wish to give the least retort to any one, even as the new Lawgiver commanded us: how is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us, —I speak of fleshly circumcision, and Sabbaths, and feasts?(Dialogue with Trypho the Jew Chapter XVIII.—Christians would observe the law, if they did not know why it was instituted. [A.D. 155]).

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday,1 all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.(First Apology Chapter LXVII.—Weekly worship of the Christians. [A.D. 155]).

“Wherefore, Trypho, I will proclaim to you, and to those who wish to become proselytes, the divine message which I heard from that man. Do you see that the elements are not idle, and keep no Sabbaths? Remain as you were born. For if there was no need of circumcision before Abraham, or of the observance of Sabbaths, of feasts and sacrifices, before Moses; no more need is there of them now, after that, according to the will of God, Jesus Christ the Son of God has been born without sin, of a virgin sprung from the stock of Abraham. For when Abraham himself was in uncircumcision, he was justified and blessed by reason of the faith which he reposed in God, as the Scripture tells. Moreover, the Scriptures and the facts themselves compel us to admit that He received circumcision for a sign, and not for righteousness.(The Second Apology of Justin for the Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate. Chapter XXIII.—The opinion of the Jews regarding the law does an injury to God.)

“As, then, circumcision began with Abraham, and the Sabbath and sacrifices and offerings and feasts with Moses, and it has been proved they were enjoined on account of the hardness of your people’s heart, so it was necessary, in accordance with the Father’s will, that they should have an end in Him who was born of a virgin, of the family of Abraham and tribe of Judah, and of David; in Christ the Son of God, who was proclaimed as about to come to all the world, to be the everlasting law and the everlasting covenant, even as the forementioned prophecies show.(The Second Apology of Justin for the Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate. Chapter XLIII.—He concludes that the law had an end in Christ, who was born of the Virgin.)

Tertullian

“[L]et him who contends that the Sabbath is still to be observed as a balm of salvation, and circumcision on the eighth day . . . teach us that, for the time past, righteous men kept the Sabbath or practiced circumcision, and were thus rendered ‘friends of God.’ For if circumcision purges a man, since God made Adam uncircumcised, why did he not circumcise him, even after his sinning, if circumcision purges? . . . Therefore, since God originated Adam uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, consequently his offspring also, Abel, offering him sacrifices, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, was by him [God] commended [Gen. 4:1–7, Heb. 11:4]. . . . Noah also, uncircumcised—yes, and unobservant of the Sabbath—God freed from the deluge. For Enoch too, most righteous man, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, he translated from this world, who did not first taste death in order that, being a candidate for eternal life, he might show us that we also may, without the burden of the law of Moses, please God”(An Answer to the Jews Chapter II.—The Law Anterior to Moses. [A.D. 203]).

It follows, accordingly, that, in so far as the abolition of carnal circumcision and of the old law is demonstrated as having been consummated at its specific times, so also the observance of the Sabbath is demonstrated to have been temporary.For the Jews say, that from the beginning God sanctified the seventh day, by resting on it from all His works which He made; and that thence it was, likewise, that Moses said to the People: “Remember the day of the sabbaths, to sanctify it: every servile work ye shall not do therein, except what pertaineth unto life.” Whence we (Christians) understand that we still more ought to observe a sabbath from all “servile work” always, and not only every seventh day, but through all time. And through this arises the question for us, what sabbath God willed us to keep? For the Scriptures point to a sabbath eternal and a sabbath temporal. For Isaiah the prophet says, “Your sabbaths my soul hateth;” and in another place he says, “My sabbaths ye have profaned.”9 Whence we discern that the temporal sabbath is human, and the eternal sabbath is accounted divine; concerning which He predicts through Isaiah: “And there shall be,” He says, “month after month, and day after day, and sabbath after sabbath; and all flesh shall come to adore in Jerusalem, saith the Lord;” which we understand to have been fulfilled in the times of Christ, when “all flesh”—that is, every nation—“came to adore in Jerusalem” God the Father, through Jesus Christ His Son, as was predicted through the prophet: “Behold, proselytes through me shall go unto Thee.” Thus, therefore, before this temporal sabbath, there was withal an eternal sabbath foreshown and foretold; just as before the carnal circumcision there was withal a spiritual circumcision foreshown. In short, let them teach us, as we have already premised, that Adam observed the sabbath; or that Abel, when offering to God a holy victim, pleased Him by a religious reverence for the sabbath; or that Enoch, when translated, had been a keeper of the sabbath; or that Noah the ark-builder observed, on account of the deluge, an immense sabbath; or that Abraham, in observance of the sabbath, offered Isaac his son; or that Melchizedek in his priesthood received the law of the sabbath

But the Jews are sure to say, that ever since this precept was given through Moses, the observance has been binding. Manifest accordingly it is, that the precept was not eternal nor spiritual, but temporary, which would one day cease. In short, so true is it that it is not in the exemption from work of the sabbath—that is, of the seventh day—that the celebration of this solemnity is to consist, that Joshua the son of Nun, at the time that he was reducing the city Jericho by war, stated that he had received from God a precept to order the People that priests should carry the ark of the testament of God seven days, making the circuit of the city; and thus, when the seventh day’s circuit had been performed, the walls of the city would spontaneously fall. Which was so done; and when the space of the seventh day was finished, just as was predicted, down fell the walls of the city. Whence it is manifestly shown, that in the number of the seven days there intervened a sabbath-day. For seven days, whencesoever they may have commenced, must necessarily include within them a sabbath-day; on which day not only must the priests have worked, but the city must have been made a prey by the edge of the sword by all the people of Israel. Nor is it doubtful that they “wrought servile work,” when, in obedience to God’s precept, they drave the preys of war. For in the times of the Maccabees, too, they did bravely in fighting on the sabbaths, and routed their foreign foes, and recalled the law of their fathers to the primitive style of life by fighting on the sabbaths. Nor should I think it was any other law which they thus vindicated, than the one in which they remembered the existence of the prescript touching “the day of the sabbaths.” Whence it is manifest that the force of such precepts was temporary, and respected the necessity of present circumstances; and that it was not with a view to its observance in perpetuity that God formerly gave them such a law.(An Answer to the Jews Chapter IV.—Of the Observance of the Sabbath.)

Therefore, since it is manifest that a sabbath temporal was shown, and a sabbath eternal foretold; a circumcision carnal foretold, and a circumcision spiritual pre-indicated; a law temporal and a law eternal formally declared; sacrifices carnal and sacrifices spiritual foreshown; it follows that, after all these precepts had been given carnally, in time preceding, to the people Israel, there was to supervene a time whereat the precepts of the ancient Law and of the old ceremonies would cease, and the promise3 of the new law, and the recognition of spiritual sacrifices, and the promise of the New Testament, supervene;4 while the light from on high would beam upon us who were sitting in darkness, and were being detained in the shadow of death.5 And so there is incumbent on us a necessity6 binding us, since we have premised that a new law was predicted by the prophets, and that not such as had been already given to their fathers at the time when He led them forth from the land of Egypt,7 to show and prove, on the one hand, that that old Law has ceased, and on the other, that the promised new law is now in operation.

And, indeed, first we must inquire whether there be expected a giver of the new law, and an heir of the new testament, and a priest of the new sacrifices, and a purger of the new circumcision, and an observer of the eternal sabbath, to suppress the old law, and institute the new testament, and offer the new sacrifices, and repress the ancient ceremonies, and suppress8 the old circumcision together with its own sabbath, and announce the new kingdom which is not corruptible. Inquire, I say, we must, whether this giver of the new law, observer of the spiritual sabbath, priest of the eternal sacrifices, eternal ruler of the eternal kingdom, be come or no: that, if he is already come, service may have to be rendered him; if he is not yet come, he may have to be awaited, until by his advent it be manifest that the old Law’s precepts are suppressed, and that the beginnings of the new law ought to arise. And, primarily, we must lay it down that the ancient Law and the prophets could not have ceased, unless He were come who was constantly announced, through the same Law and through the same prophets, as to come.(An Answer to the Jews Chapter VI.—Of the Abolition and the Abolisher of the Old Law. [A.D. 203]).

But you, many of you, also under pretence sometimes of worshipping the heavenly bodies, move your lips in the direction of the sunrise. In the same way, if we devote Sun-day to rejoicing, from a far different reason than Sun-worship, we have some resemblance to those of you who devote the day of Saturn to ease and luxury, though they too go far away from Jewish ways, of which indeed they are ignorant.(Apology Chapter XVI.)


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LoveGodsWord

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LoveGodsWord said: According to the scriptures all of God's 10 commandments are repeated in the new covenant as the standard of Christian living (scripture support here and here linked). See all the scriptures posted in post # 70 linked here. What is it in the scriptures posted there from my earlier post that you disagree with? God's Church according to the scriptures are all those who believe and follow what God's Word says (John 10:26-27; Matthew 7:21).
You probably need to get some new content as this is the same old cutting and pasting of the same old content that has already been addressed many times now in this section of the forum. Did you notice that the content of what you have pasted here does not address anything in the post you are quoting from? I do not mind however and happy to look at the content of your posts here so that others might see if the claims being made in your post is true or not true by looking at each scripture in detail and context as all you have posted here is a bunch of random scriptures that have nothing to do with the post you are quoting or responding to. Anyhow let's look at the scriptures you have provided to try and argue that Gods' law and Sabbath has been abolished. My reply might be over a few posts to cover all your content of your post.
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.
From previous conversations with you here you are of the belief that Hebrews 7:12 separated from it's context is saying that Gods' 10 commandments have been abolished. Therefore let's look at the chapter context of Hebrews 7 to Hebrews 7:12 is saying that Gods' 10 commandments have been abolished? Let's look at the scripture contexts you have left out of your post. Hebrews 7:1-10 is talking about the Melchisedec who was the "King Priest" who met with Abraham meaning the "King of Righteousness" who was before the Levitical Priesthood and without origin and comparing the Priesthood of Melchizedek with the Levitical Priesthood. Let's pick it up from Hebrews 7:11-28 adding all the context in to see if your claim that Hebrews 7:12 is talking about God's 10 commandments is true or not true?

Hebrews 7:11-28
[11], IF THEREFORE PERFECTION WERE BY THE LEVITICAL PRIESTHOOD, (for under it the people received the law,) WHAT FURTHER NEED WAS THERE THAT ANOTHER PRIEST SHOULD RISE AFTER THE ORDER OF MELCHISEDEC, AND NOT BE CALLED AFTER THE ORDER OF AARON?
[12], FOR THE PRIESTHOOD BEING CHANGED, THERE IS MADE OF NECESSITY A CHANGE ALSO OF THE LAW.
[13], For HE OF WHOM THESE THINGS ARE SPOKEN PERTAINS TO ANOTHER TRIBE, OF WHICH NO MAN GAVE ATTENDANCE AT THE ALTAR.
[14], FOR IT IS EVIDENT THAT OUR LORD SPRANG OUT OF JUDA; OF WHICH TRIBE MOSES SPOKE NOTHING CONCERNING PRIESTHOOD.
[15], And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there rises another priest,
[16], WHO IS MADE, NOT AFTER THE LAW OF A CARNAL COMMANDMENT, BUT AFTER THE POWER OF AN ENDLESS LIFE.
[17], For he testifies, YOU ARE A PRIEST FOR EVER AFTER THE ORDER OF MELCHISEDEC.
[18], FOR THERE IS TRULY A CANCELLATION OF THE COMMANDMENT GOING BEFORE FOR THE WEAKNESS AND UNPROFITABLENESS THEREOF.
[19], FOR THE LAW MADE NOTHING PERFECT, BUT THE BRINGING IN OF A BETTER HOPE DID; by the which we draw near to God.
[20], And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
[21], For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said to him, The Lord swore and will not repent, You are a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:
[22], By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
[23], And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
[24], BUT THIS MAN, BECAUSE HE CONTINUES EVER, HAS AN UNCHANGEABLE PRIESTHOOD.
[25], Why he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come to God by him, seeing he ever lives to make intercession for them.
[26], For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
[27], WHO NEEDS NOT DAILY, AS THOSE HIGH PRIESTS, TO OFFER UP SACRIFICE, FIRST FOR HIS OWN SINS, AND THEN FOR THE PEOPLE'S: FOR THIS HE DID ONCE, WHEN HE OFFERED UP HIMSELF.
[28], FOR THE LAW MAKES MEN HIGH PRIESTS WHICH HAVE INFIRMITY; BUT THE WORD OF THE OATH, WHICH WAS SINCE THE LAW, MAKES THE SON, WHO IS CONSECRATED FOR EVER MORE.

Note taken directly out of the scripture context of Hebrews 7:12 and cross reference...
  • Perfection is not by the Levtical Priesthood which was a shadow of the coming of another Priesthood - Hebrews 7:11
  • The Priesthood being changed meant the changing of the law of the Priesthood (Levi to Melchizedek) - Hebrews 7:11-12
  • For it was evident Jesus was not of the tribe of Levi but of the tribe of Juda (only Levites could be High Priests according to the Sanctuary laws) - Hebrews 7:13-14; see Exodus 28:1-4; Numbers 18:1-4.
  • Changing of the law was for the changing of the Priesthood as only Levites could be Priests and Jesus was of the tribe of Juda - Hebrews 7:11-17
  • This commandment needed to be cancelled before Jesus could become high Priest - Hebrews 7:18-19
  • God made the change of the Priesthood - Hebrews 7:20-24
  • The law makes men Priests (this is the Levitical Law not the 10 commandments) - Hebrews 7:28
According to the scripture context of Hebrews 7, Hebrews 7:12 and Hebrews 7:18 has nothing to do with God’s 10 commandments. The law being spoken of here is the law of the Levitical Priesthood not the 10 commandments. It is talking about a change in the laws regarding who can be a Priest. Under the old testament laws only a Levite could partake of the office of the Sanctuary Priests of High Priest. The context that of JESUS who was born of the tribe of Judah and Melchizedek meaning King Priest. Hebrews 7:12-22 [12], for the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. [13], For he of whom these things are spoken pertains to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. [14], For it is evident that our lord sprang out of juda; of which tribe moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. Hebrews 7:28 For the law makes men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, makes the son, who is consecrated for ever more.

...................

CONCLUSION
: So is Hebrews 7:12 talking about changing Gods' 10 commandments? As shown above when scripture context is added back in Hebrews 7:1-28 is talking about the laws of the Priesthood which needed to be changed because only Levites could become high priests while Jesus was of the tribe of Judah. So no Hebrews 7:12 has nothing to do with God's 10 commandments and does not teach what you are saying they teach.

more to come….
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. In the passage below we are not come to Mount Sinai, but we are come instead to the New Covenant of Mount Zion. Heb 12:18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, (Mount Sinai) Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, Heb 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
According to the scriptures the old covenant was made up of the Mosaic book of the covenant *Exodus 24:7 and God's 10 commandments that were the standard of good and evil *Exodus 20:3-17; Exodus 34:28. Together both the Mosaic book of the covenant and God's 10 commandments made up the old covenant. According to the new covenant scriptures, Gods' 10 commandments in the new covenant have the same role they always have as Gods' eternal laws, and that is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *see Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and Psalms 119:172. So what has become obsolete is all the laws of remission of sins, the earthly Sanctuary, the Levitical Priesthood, the laws of animal sacrifices and sin offerings, which were all "shadow laws" from the book of the covenant pointing to Jesus as God's sacrifice for the sins of the world once and for all *John 1:29; Hebrews 10:10 and Jesus as our true great High Priest who now ministers on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man based on better promises *see Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22. Now the context of Hebrews 12:1-17 is talking about departing from the sins that so easily beset us. Sin is defined in the scriptures as breaking anyone of Gods' 10 commandments (see James 2:10-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 2:3-4 and 1 John 3:4) and and not believing Gods' Word *Romans 14:23. Hebrews 12 continues that if we continue in sin we will not see God from Hebrews 12:4-14 where it states to follow peace with all men and holiness without which no man shall see God. So the context of Hebrews 12 is discussing obedience to God's law not disobedience to God's law as sin is the transgression of God's law *1 John 3:4 and not believing God's Word *Romans 14:23. Hebrews 12:18-22 with context added back in the subject matter and audience to to those who know Christ and have accepted him as their true sacrifice and great High Priest (context is Hebrews 7; Hebrews 8; Hebrews 9; Hebrews 10; Hebrews 11 on faith and Hebrews 12 on holiness). So Hebrews 12:18-22 is showing that those who have received God's forgiveness of sins are no longer condemned and stand guilty before God of sin. There is nothing in Hebrews 12 that says God's 10 commandments are deleted anywhere. In fact if anything it is upholding them as the new covenant is God's law written in the heart by faith that works by love *see Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27. So as shown through the scriptures above your interpretation does not follow the scripture of chapter contexts or subject matter of the book of Hebrews and teaches nowhere that God's 10 commandments are deleted.

more to come...
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Col 2:16 Let no one, then, judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or of a new moon, or of sabbaths,
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of the coming things, and the body is of the Christ; (YLT).

According to the scriptures, Paul in Colossians 2:16 is quoting from these old testament scriptures found in 2 Chronicles 2:4, 2 Chronicles 31:3, Nehemiah 10:33, Ezekiel 45:17, and Hosea 2:11. The within scripture context of Colossians 2:16 is to the meat and drink offerings (laws for remission of sins) and the new moons and the sabbaths (plural) in the Feast days they they are all linked to are the “shadows of things to come” but the body us of Christ. That is, because the annual Feasts were all shadows linked directly to the laws for atonement and the remission of sins and sin offerings through animal sacrifices, pointing to Jesus as the promised Messiah and His work on our behalf in the new covenant as Jesus as our great High Priest who now ministers on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man (see Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22) they are now fulfilled and continued in Him to which they pointed to in the new covenant! Colossians 2:16 has nothing to do with Gods' 4th commandment being abolished or a "shadow"of anything as it is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken (Romans 7:7) and according to James if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin in James 2:10-11.

Sunday keeping commentaries of Colossians 2:16 if your interested…

Albert Barnes Notes on the Bible
“... Or of the Sabbath days - Greek, “of the Sabbaths.” The word Sabbath in the Old Testament is applied not only to the seventh day, but to all the days of holy rest that were observed by the Hebrews, and particularly to the beginning and close of their great festivals. There is, doubtless, reference to those days in this place, since the word is used in the plural number, and the apostle does not refer particularly to the Sabbath properly so called. There is no evidence from this passage that he would teach that there was no obligation to observe any holy time, for there is not the slightest reason to believe that he meant to teach that one of the ten commandments had ceased to be binding on mankind. If he had used the word in the singular number - “the Sabbath,” it would then, of course, have been clear that he meant to teach that that commandment had ceased to be binding, and that a Sabbath was no longer to be observed. But the use of the term in the plural number, and the connection, show that he had his eye on the great number of days which were observed by the Hebrews as festivals, as a part of their ceremonial and typical law, and not to the moral law, or the Ten Commandments. No part of the moral law - no one of the ten commandments could be spoken of as “a shadow of good things to come.” These commandments are, from the nature of moral law, of perpetual and universal obligation. ...” - Albert Barnes, Colossians 2:16 Commentary. E-Sword App.

Adam Clarke, states on the same passage:
There is no intimation here that the Sabbath was done away, or that its moral use was superseded, by the introduction of Christianity. I have shown elsewhere that, Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, is a command of perpetual obligation, and can never be superseded but by the final termination of time. ...” - Adam Clarke, Colossians 2:16 Commentary. E-Sword App.

Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary states:
“... the sabbath — Omit “THE,” which is not in the Greek (compare Note, see on Gal_4:10). “SABBATHS” (not “the sabbaths”) of the day of atonement and feast of tabernacles have come to an end with the Jewish services to which they belonged (Lev_23:32, Lev_23:37-39). The weekly sabbath rests on a more permanent foundation, having been instituted in Paradise to commemorate the completion of creation in six days. Lev_23:38 expressly distinguished “the sabbath of the Lord” from the other sabbaths. A positive precept is right because it is commanded, and ceases to be obligatory when abrogated; a moral precept is commanded eternally, because it is eternally right. If we could keep a perpetual sabbath, as we shall hereafter, the positive precept of the sabbath, one in each week, would not be needed. Heb_4:9, “rests,” Greek, “keeping of sabbath” (Isa_66:23). But we cannot, since even Adam, in innocence, needed one amidst his earthly employments; therefore the sabbath is still needed and is therefore still linked with the other nine commandments, as obligatory in the spirit, though the letter of the law has been superseded by that higher spirit of love which is the essence of law and Gospel alike (Rom_13:8-10). ...” - Jamieson, Fausset and Brown, Colossians 2:16 Commentary. E-Sword App.

..................

So Colossians 2:16-17 applied in context is talking about the meat and the drink offerings and the new moons and the sabbaths (not "the sabbath" of God's 4th commandment that gives us a knowledge of what sin is when broken - the Greek is N-GNP noun that is genitive neuter plural) in the feast days. Not God's 4th commandment. Context matters.

more to come...
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Early Church Fathers who lived before the Council of Nicaea on the Sabbath:
Ignatius of Antioch
Justin Martyr
Tertullian
.

Sorry dear friend I do not accept any of these people as so called "early church fathers" these are simply sources written by people outside of the bible and the scriptures that promote man-made teachings and traditions that have led many to break the commandments of God. They are not scripture and there is no scripture in the entire bible that says God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments have now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday of the first day of the week as a holy day of rest in honor of the resurrection. Sunday worship is a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God. Jesus warns us that if we knowingly follow man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God we are not worshiping God in Matthew 15:3-9. So we should be careful in trying to know the truth of God's Word from people that are outside of the scriptures. Gods' Word does not teach "lawlessness" (without law) and if we break Gods' law according to 1 John 3:4 we stand guilty before God of sin which is the transgression of the law according to the scriptures.

Take Care.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I'm just going to highlight this as it seems the most foundational. Jesus here scolds the person who "breaks one of the least of these commandments".

Clearly, you value the Sabbath commandment as one of the greatest but my question to you is which are the least? and do you value those commandments too? There's a lot of elevating the 10 but here Christ takes a step back and tells us to even focus on the least. When I read these words I see Christ addressing the entire law not just the 10, including the stuff we think is silly, like mixing grains or thread and trimming beards and I see his audience receiving it that same way.

I don't know what you follow and what you don't but I cannot see how you can use this verse to support keeping the 10 commandments but at the same time having commandments you don't keep. We do not keep sacrificial law for example does that mean we break sacrificial law, or throw it away? Absolutely not, we have strong value for it but know that Christ is our sacrifice so we no longer need to keep the law but at the same time do not break the law.

I see Sabbath law the same way and I do not keep the Sabbath law yet I do not break it and still have high value for it because Christ has accomplished it for me. The direction of Sabbath law points to our very breath and heartbeat as work, you can even argue the law demands this as ultimately the law does demand death but it has accommodation for what humans are physically able to do as the sabbath is made for man not man for the sabbath. But Christ takes it another level, he keeps the sabbath according to the law but he also appeases its demand of death. And while in death he is without breath or heartbeat during the course of the Sabbath thus being able to keep the sabbath like no other before him so he has completed the Sabbath and I seek Christ for that rest.

there is also deep spiritual meaning in the Sabbath too. creation starts in chaos, it is unformed, empty and dark, the opposite of rest and is of unrest. Then God speaks light and a transformation happens that ends in something organized, called out, formed, bountiful and full of light, and of rest and peace. The creation account is a salvation metaphor (regardless of how you approach the literalness) and the end is the goal, that goal is rest but not physical rest, but the rest only God can have and only God can give. That is the rest I seek, and I recognize I cannot take it for myself and it must be given to me so I seek the one who can give it to me. I do not keep the sabbath according to the law yet I also do not break it because I seek it through Christ and what he gives I know to be far better than what I can accomplish myself which is nothing in the spiritual.

it starts at reconciling Mat 5:19 and surrendering this idea that we actually keep all the commandments. Even if we have a high value of specific commandments we do not keep the least of them or the ones that we have judged in favor of not keeping them according to the law. Now ask the question why do we keep some but the ones deemed the least we do not keep? May I suggest we don't keep them according to law, but we also don't break them (or teach others to break them) because its fulfillment is in Christ and that's what we proclaim.

Not trying to be disrespectful but I see a lot of “I’s” in your post. While we are all entitled to our opinion, the only opinion that matters to me is God’s.

I value all of God’s commandments, the Sabbath is the one commandment though that is about time with God the one most people don’t want to keep for some reason. The seventh day Sabbath is the weekly appointed time God tells us to rest from our work and keep holy Exodus 20:8-11 on God’s holy day Exodus 20:10, Isaiah 58:13 This is a time for holy communion with our Creator and Savior on the day God blessed is sanctified and to be kept holy for God and for us. No other day can substitute this day because God deemed all other days a working day Genesis 1, Exodus 20:9 not a day that is holy, blessed or sanctified. The door to the rest in Christ is though the Sabbath commandment. You are blessed only when you obey God, not by disobedience.

Hebrews 4:6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, Those who did not enter into this rest disobeyed and what they disobeyed was the Sabbath Ezekiel 20:13


Hebrews 4:9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.
Rest here is sabbatismos which literally means keeping of the Sabbath. So this verse says there remains a keeping of the Sabbath for the people of God.

σαββατισμὸς (sabbatismos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 4520: A keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works (Exodus 20:8-11) as God did from His. Genesis 2:1-3

To enter into the Spiritual rest you must also cease from your work (Exodus 20:8-11) just as God did from His (Genesis 2:1-3)


To receive the spiritual rest in Christ you must keep the Sabbath commandment, this is the door to enter into the spiritual rest in Christ. We work six days and the seventh day Christ wants to give us spiritual rest by having communion with him for a full 24 hours not speaking our words but speaking the words of Christ, not doing our ways but the ways of Christ. In return when we keep the Sabbath God blesses and sanctifies us. Ezekiel 20:12

Isaiah 58:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord honorable,
And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
Nor finding your own pleasure,
Nor speaking your own words,
14 Then you shall delight yourself in the Lord;
And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth,
And feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father.
The mouth of the Lord has spoken.”
 
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BABerean2

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You probably need to get some new content as this is the same old cutting and pasting of the same old content that has already been addressed many times now in this section of the forum.

You are correct. I keep posting what was plainly written in the New Testament almost 2,000 years ago, while you keep quoting the doctrine of the so-called "prophetess" Ellen G. White.

I also quoted the Early Church Fathers who lived before the Council of Nicea, while you keep quoting the doctrine of Ellen G. White. The Early Church Fathers revealed the fact that the First Century Church met on the first day of the week, because it is the day Christ rose from the dead. You ignore what the Early Church Fathers said and quote the doctrine of Ellen G. White.

Many Adventists claim meeting on the first day is the "mark" of the beast. Do you think this idea is found below?

Joh_20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.


Act_20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.


1Co_16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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You are correct. I keep posting what was plainly written in the New Testament almost 2,000 years ago, while you keep quoting the doctrine of the so-called "prophetess" Ellen G. White.

I also quoted the Early Church Fathers who lived before the Council of Nicea, while you keep quoting the doctrine of Ellen G. White. The Early Church Fathers revealed the fact that the First Century Church met on the first day of the week, because it is the day Christ rose from the dead. You ignore what the Early Church Fathers said and quote the doctrine of Ellen G. White.

Many Adventists claim meeting on the first day is the "mark" of the beast. Do you think this idea is found below?

Joh_20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.


Act_20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.


1Co_16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

.

None of those scriptures say the 4th commandment is deleted and the first day is a new day of worship for God or for us. You are reading into scriptures creating your own doctrine and ignoring the clear Word of God. Seems like a step down to worship God on a day He deemed to do all our work and labor Exodus 20:9 instead of the day God blessed, sanctified and made holy.

That’s your choice of course, but we are told:

John 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

God claimed the day that we are to worship Him. Exodus 20:8-11 There is only one day that is Holy to God Exodus 20:10, Isaiah 58:13 and God made holy for us Exodus 20:8-11 only one day God blessed and sanctified from the very beginning Genesis 2:1-3 and the day the saints will worship on (the Sabbath day) for eternity says the Lord Isaiah 66:23 all other days are working days according to God Genesis 1, Exodus 20:9. God is calling us to worship Him in Truth and Spirit today!
 
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DamianWarS

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Not trying to be disrespectful but I see a lot of “I’s” in your post. While we are all entitled to our opinion, the only opinion that matters to me is God’s.
You've avoided the question and are trying to shift the focus. Are there or are there not commandments that are considered the least that you do not keep? Because your argument seems to hinge on this, at least in the case of Mat 5:19 but it seems you've stop quoting it. Have you abandoned it?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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You've avoided the question and are trying to shift the focus. Are there or are there not commandments that are considered the least that you do not keep? Because your argument seems to hinge on this, at least in the case of Mat 5:19 but it seems you've stop quoting it. Have you abandoned it?
No, I did not shift focus. Jesus tells us we should keep the least of the commandments, meaning we should keep them all. I stated that in my post (I value all of the commandments, meaning we should keep them all!). There is not one commandment Jesus gives us permission to break. To be honest, I keep getting your opinion and you have yet to address any scripture from any of my posts.
 
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DamianWarS

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No, I did not shift focus. Jesus tells us we should keep the least of the commandments, meaning we should keep them all. I stated that in my post (I value all of the commandments, meaning we should keep them all!). There is not one commandment Jesus gives us permission to break. To be honest, I keep getting your opinion and you have yet to address any scripture from any of my posts.
so I understand where you're coming from better what do you define as "all of the commandments"
 
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SabbathBlessings

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so I understand where you're coming from better what do you define as "all of the commandments"
I am going out of town and the answer is longer than a few minutes so I will answer later today or tomorrow. Stay tuned and God bless!
 
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Bob S

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The law He wrote and spoke were the 10 ..... not 613 ... the 10 are the Royal Law of Love and are to be kept out of love and for no other reasons.
Sorry, I totally disagree with your assessment. God spoke 603 laws to Moses and he wrote them in the Book of the Law. As to the 10 commandments being the Royal Law of Love, I submit to you that their is not one word about loving God or man in the ten. Each one is about duty. How the Israelites reacted to the ten is a different story.

John 14:21
Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him."

John 14:23
Jesus replied, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

John 15:10
If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and remain in His love.

1 John 2:3
By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome,

2 John 1:6
And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the very commandment you have heard from the beginning, that you must walk in love.
Not one of those verses tell us it is referring to the ten commandments. I fact you quoted Jn15:10 where from verse 9 to verse14 Jesus is giving us a new commandment, not the law which He kept but the real Law of Love. Love others as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. Would you like to know the commands Christians are under? 1Jn 3:
19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.


The 7th day Sabbath isn't a tradition, it's a day God created and nowhere in His Word was it done away with .... Jesus kept the 7th day Sabbath .... and we are to follow in His steps.
I certainly didn't label Sabbath as a tradition. Where did you get that idea? I do label Sabbath as a ritual command just as the Jews do. As to following in Jesus steps, maybe you should take a closer look at His steps. He kept the commands of the old covenant, Every command that would have pertained to him He kept perfectly. That included keeping the new moon celebrations, the eight feast days, the wearing of the Tzitzits on the corners of His apparel just to name a few. Are you really following in Jesus steps or just giving lip service to others?

The commandment to love they neighbor is a sum of the 10.
Is this what you have been taught? I would be looking for another teacher. First of all six of the ten were not concerning the neighbor. Secondly none of them demanded that the Israelites were to love any of the ten.

"Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no harm to its neighbor.
Amen! Love is the greatest command

Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law" (Romans 13:8-10)
Tell us what that really means?

The thief on the cross ....

Some will be like the thief on the cross with little or no opportunity to serve the Lord and be will be saved ... Others among us will be regularly fed from Scripture and will choose to walk in His ways because we love Him .... and out of love will share the gospel with others.
The Gospel is not going around trying to convince others to observe the Sabbath given only to the Israelites. Walking in His way doesn't mean keeping a bunch of ritual laws given only to the Israelites.

Salvation is up to the Lord ... only He knows the heart and the sincerity of it.
Thank the Lord because if it were left up to the churches and its members........

Does the Holy Spirit help you overcome sin? What is sin? .... transgression of the law. What law?
love others as I have loved you. Read 1Jn 3:19-24 again.

Judgement can not take place without law .... all will be judged by the law .... and judgement is totally up to Jesus. AMEN! Some will be condemned ... some not, who He applies His blood to is up to Him .... and who are we to presuppose who that is ... or isn't? like we know? No, we do not .... we do not know the secret things only He does.
I believe in Jesus and the one who sent Him so according to JN5:24 I won't come under judgement. I gather you thing it is how well you were able to keep the Sabbath. The truth is it isn't the works of the law that save us it is our faith and God's Grace.

Romans 2

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the law who will be declared righteous.
The only law the doers are required to do is to love others as Jesus loves us. The law you thinking the verse is referring to had 613 commands and ended at Sinai.

What law is written on the heart?
I can attest that it is the Royal Law of Love which is expressed in Jn 15 verses 9-14. Good luck trying to keep all the laws Jesus kept.[/QUOTE]
 
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Bob S

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You probably need to get some new content as this is the same old cutting and pasting of the same old content that has already been addressed many times now in this section of the forum. Did you notice that the content of what you have pasted here does not address anything in the post you are quoting from? .
That made my day. It is good to start the day with a good chuckle. You know the old adage "the pot calling the kettle black". how apropos to your comment about another. Have a great day.
 
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DamianWarS

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I am going out of town and the answer is longer than a few minutes so I will answer later today or tomorrow. Stay tuned and God bless!
I look forward to your reply but please don't answer it saying what Jesus really meant to say is the 10 commandments.
 
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