Good tidings of great joy, which shall be to SOME people?

[Saint Steven]

I only even became aware of universalism recently, seeing it on here.

This unbiased presentation is a really good way to understand the three biblical Christian views of the final judgment. (hell)

 

[Servus]

At lease that takes account of the word "death", as does universalism by interpreting it as the death of our sinful nature. ECT in contrast ignores the word entirely because eternal torment requires us to continue to be alive just as we are now.

That's always been a paradox.

 

[Servus]

I only even became aware of universalism recently, seeing it on here. If everybody is saved what do you believe about the second death?
Revelation 21:8


8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Who's not included in all liars?

 

[Saint Steven]

That's always been a paradox.

"Death" is a metaphor for many things in scripture. As is "life".

 

[Clare73]

Who's not included in all liars?

The born again believers. . .who are the sons of God, whom God does not characterize as liars, but righteous with the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ, just as Abraham was declared righteous (justified) with the imputed righteousness of God (Romans 1:17, Romans 2:21, Romans 4:3, Romans 4:5) and likewise not included in "all liars."

 

[SkyWriting]

Oops, that's not what it says.

Luke 2:10 KJV
And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

Ah... good tidings of great joy, which shall be to ALL people.

How can the advent of Christ be good news for ALL people unless it truly is for ALL people?

Jesus was sent for a specific purpose. Did he succeed, or fail?

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

The only unforgivable sin is rejecting forgiveness. You can't say forgiveness doesn't exist for everyone.
It does exist for everyone. But many reject it.

 

[Clare73]

The only unforgivable sin is rejecting forgiveness. You can't say forgiveness doesn't exist for everyone.
It does exist for everyone. But many reject it.

How do you reject forgiveness?

 

[coffee4u]

This unbiased presentation is a really good way to understand the three biblical Christian views of the final judgment. (hell)

Saved for later, thanks.

Who's not included in all liars?

The second death is for the unbelievers.

 

[Saint Steven]

The second death is for the unbelievers.

How did you come to that conclusion?

 

[coffee4u]

How did you come to that conclusion?

I will have to get back to this, got too much on today finishing off moving to my new pc and deleting stuff off the old.

 

[SkyWriting]

How did you come to that conclusion?

Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Revelation 21:7-8
The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

 

[coffee4u]

How did you come to that conclusion?

And I will quickly copy those verses

Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Because those are what I would have put had I gone on a search.

 

[Saint Steven]

And I will quickly copy those verses

Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Because those are what I would have put had I gone on a search.

It seems you have to apply a presupposition to make those verses say, "The second death is for the unbelievers."

The 20:14 reference says that Death and Hades being thrown into the lake of fire is the second death.

The 20:6 reference is in reference to the Millennium. (thousand years)

 

[Hmm]

It seems you have to apply a presupposition to make those verses say, "The second death is for the unbelievers."

The 20:14 reference says that Death and Hades being thrown into the lake of fire is the second death.

The 20:6 reference is in reference to the Millennium. (thousand years)

Yes, they clearly say nothing about believers or unbelievers. Revelation is a vision anyway and is not meant to be read literally and so who knows what it means? The verses seem at face value to be saying that death itself and Hades is destroyed. No mention of any individuals, and certainly not just unbelievers, being destroyed. And no mention of the beloved eternal hell anywhere, just Hades which, whatever it is, is not an eternal torture chamber. Rev 20:16 seems to be saying that heaven only lasts a thousand years!

 

[Andrewn]

Yes, they clearly say nothing about believers or unbelievers.

The verses seem at face value to be saying that death itself and Hades is destroyed. No mention of any individuals, and certainly not just unbelievers, being destroyed.

There are 2 groups of people mentioned in the underlined portions. Who are they? What happens to them?

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them. They will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Rev 20:14 Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Hmm]

There are 2 groups of people mentioned in the underlined portions. Who are they? What happens to them?

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them. They will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Rev 20:14 Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

I don't know. Revelation is a dream of John's and who can accurately interpret their own dream let alone anyone elses?

Can we really build a theology on an interpretation of the dream sequence that is Revelation, or should we not rather try to interpret this dream/vision in the light of the rest of scripture which teaches us that God is supremely loving and forgiving and therefore, to spell it out to Team Hell who seem to require this extra step, He doesn't possess a torture chamber at all. So, whatever "second death" means, and does anyone really know what it means?, we know for sure that it doesn't mean eternal torture.

 

[Andrewn]

Can we really build a theology on an interpretation of the dream sequence that is Revelation, or should we not rather try to interpret this dream/vision in the light of the rest of scripture which teaches us that God is supremely loving and forgiving

I agree that Revelation should be interpreted in light of the rest of the NT. But it is relatively easy to see that the expressions "those who share in the first resurrection" and "anyone whose name was not found written in the BOL" apply to believers and unbelievers, respectively.

To support UR, the easiest way to stick to what you wrote in post #1182 and what @Saint Steven wrote in post #1141. No one seriously challenged those posts, to my surprise .

 

[Hmm]

I agree that Revelation should be interpreted in light of the rest of the NT. But it is relatively easy to see that the expressions "those who share in the first resurrection" and "anyone whose name was not found written in the BOL" apply to believers and unbelievers, respectively.

I guess so but probably the most problematic words there are "believers" and "unbelievers", more so than the Book of Life etc. What does it mean to be a believer? Is it someone who gives intellectual assent to certain statements/creeds or is it something more than that? That's a rhetorical question btw!

Although I don't usually ask rhetorical questions. What's the point?

 

[Servus]

I don't know. Revelation is a dream of John's and who can accurately interpret their own dream let alone anyone elses?

Can we really build a theology on an interpretation of the dream sequence that is Revelation, or should we not rather try to interpret this dream/vision in the light of the rest of scripture which teaches us that God is supremely loving and forgiving and therefore, to spell it out to Team Hell who seem to require this extra step, He doesn't possess a torture chamber at all. So, whatever "second death" means, and does anyone really know what it means?, we know for sure that it doesn't mean eternal torture.

There's also the question of who wrote Revelation. Tradition says it was John the Apostle. But scholars say the use of Greek doesn't match John's 3 epistles, so they think it probably was written by someone else named John. Also it barely made it into the Bible.

 

[Servus]

It seems you have to apply a presupposition to make those verses say, "The second death is for the unbelievers."

The 20:14 reference says that Death and Hades being thrown into the lake of fire is the second death.

The 20:6 reference is in reference to the Millennium. (thousand years)

"They will be priests of God and of Christ". Priests over whom?