Good tidings of great joy, which shall be to SOME people?

[coffee4u]

Yes, I am a Christian universalist. I don't disagree with that scripture - clearly many or most of us refuse to listen to the good news. The universalist view is that we will all listen to it once we come to see God clearly in the next age and realise that our happiness lies with Him. I thought that was what we were discussing so apologies.

I only even became aware of universalism recently, seeing it on here. If everybody is saved what do you believe about the second death?
Revelation 21:8


8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

 

[Hmm]

I only even became aware of universalism recently, seeing it on here. If everybody is saved what do you believe about the second death?
Revelation 21:8


8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

I suppose the first thing to say is that the "second death" is rarely interpreted as literal annihilation. It's usually used in support of eternal conscious torment so clearly it's not death in a literal sense.

I read it as meaning something like "the sinner must lose their old life". Perhaps the righteous get to take their lives into heaven with them, but the sinner can't enter heaven until they are reformed, so it's as if they need to "die" and start over. I believe that this is what will be judged and destroyed in the Lake of Fire. Our old sinful nature is burned up so that Christ can be revealed.

"But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears?
For he is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap; 3 he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the descendants of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, until they present offerings to the Lord in righteousness."
- Malachi 3:2-3

I don't know if any of that makes any sense but that's the universalist perspective as I understand it.

 

[Hmm]

I had a dream that when I went to heaven I was immediately put to work.

They were having a BBQ lunch and I was assigned to a grill cooking hamburgers.

To my surprise, Jesus walked up to my grill with his plate. I nervously asked, "How do like your burger?" To which he replied, "Well done, my good and faithful servant."

That was a bun-ny dream.

 

[Clare73]

Yes.

Perfect response. . .

 

[Clare73]

Give an answer to the question instead of deflecting with questions.

That is an answer to your question, if you can follow logic.

 

[Clare73]

I meant that there was resistance from Saul but God never gave up on him. So what makes you think He would ever give up on us?

Saul is more powerful than God, that God would "give up" on him?

What Bible do you read?

 

[Clare73]

I am realizing that there may be some confusion in this discussion about word definitions.

"Listen" does not mean "not hear". Listen means "to heed", or "to accept".

The gospel must be heard to be rejected. Those who "listen" are those that believe. Those who rejected it, had to hear it first.
No one refuses to hear good news, unless they are not in their right mind.

And you know this, how?

Or unless they don't see it as good news.

 

[Hmm]

What Bible do you read?

If you're not going to play nicely then I'm not playing.

 

[Clare73]

I think that's right. Once we see God clearly, not as through a mirror darkly as we do now, we will all gladly bow down and worship Him as scripture prophesies. Universalism simply makes the point that for us all to get there, some may need a period of time in the next age where God woos us by removing all the ignorance and false beliefs that prevented us from listening to Him in this life.

Universalism simply makes the point that to be legitimate, God must be in agreement with fallen man.

Now what could possibly be wrong with that?

 

[Servus]

I only even became aware of universalism recently, seeing it on here. If everybody is saved what do you believe about the second death?
Revelation 21:8


8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Saint Steven said: ↑
We assume death is a bad thing.

Galatians 2:20 NIV
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Philippians 1:21 NIV
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

 

[Servus]

That is an answer to your question, if you can follow logic.

I'm sure you know the fallacy of answering a question with a question. And the question did not give an answer to what I asked, instead you questioned the question.

 

[Servus]

Perfect response. . .

It's perfect because I gave a direct answer, rather than answering a question with a question.

 

[Clare73]

I'm sure you know the fallacy of answering a question with a question.

Depends on the question in the answer.

And the question did not give an answer to what I asked, instead you questioned the question.

It does when the answer to my question is also the answer to your question.

 

[Clare73]

It's perfect because I gave a direct answer, rather than answering a question with a question.

The perfection of your humility is exceeded only by the perfection of your answer.

 

[Saint Steven]

That was a bun-ny dream.

Yes.
I thought I was in a real pickle.
But he let me ketchup.

Didn't offer him any mustard. Who wants to get dragged
through the mustard seed parable again? - lol

Saint Steven said: ↑
I had a dream that when I went to heaven I was immediately put to work.

They were having a BBQ lunch and I was assigned to a grill cooking hamburgers.

To my surprise, Jesus walked up to my grill with his plate. I nervously asked, "How do like your burger?" To which he replied, "Well done, my good and faithful servant."

 

[Servus]

Depends on the question in the answer.

It does when the answer to my question is also the answer to your question.

This is why we don't talk much anymore.

 

[Clare73]

This is why we don't talk much anymore.

Sorry to hear that. . .I kinda' like you.

 

[coffee4u]

I suppose the first thing to say is that the "second death" is rarely interpreted as literal annihilation. It's usually used in support of eternal conscious torment so clearly it's not death in a literal sense.

I read it as meaning something like "the sinner must lose their old life". Perhaps the righteous get to take their lives into heaven with them, but the sinner can't enter heaven until they are reformed, so it's as if they need to "die" and start over. I believe that this is what will be judged and destroyed in the Lake of Fire. Our old sinful nature is burned up so that Christ can be revealed.

"But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears?
For he is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap; 3 he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the descendants of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, until they present offerings to the Lord in righteousness."
- Malachi 3:2-3

I don't know if any of that makes any sense but that's the universalist perspective as I understand it.

Interesting. I actually do interpret it as literal annihilation.

 

[Hmm]

Yes.
I thought I was in a real pickle.
But he let me ketchup.

Didn't offer him any mustard. Who wants to get dragged
through the mustard seed parable again? - lol

Saint Steven said: ↑
I had a dream that when I went to heaven I was immediately put to work.

They were having a BBQ lunch and I was assigned to a grill cooking hamburgers.

To my surprise, Jesus walked up to my grill with his plate. I nervously asked, "How do like your burger?" To which he replied, "Well done, my good and faithful servant."

I relished those jokes, thanks.

 

[Hmm]

Interesting. I actually do interpret it as literal annihilation.

At lease that takes account of the word "death", as does universalism by interpreting it as the death of our sinful nature. ECT in contrast ignores the word entirely because eternal torment requires us to continue to be alive just as we are now.