Good tidings of great joy, which shall be to SOME people?

[Saint Steven]

Of course, all these verses are from Revelation, which is highly symbolic. Perhaps the easiest solution for believers in full UR is to assume that the lake of fire is for purification. But then, why is considered the 2nd death?

We assume death is a bad thing.

Galatians 2:20 NIV
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Philippians 1:21 NIV
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

 

[rjs330]

God ending mortal life early, often is compared to people being cast into a firey pit of everlasting torment. But are those two punishments really equivalent in any way?

But is God a murderer for doing that?

 

[rjs330]

Does God just give up on you then it does He carrying on trying to break through as happened with Paul? I don't know the verse you quoted means, but I doubt it means that the vast majority of people go to an eternal hell. What kind of victory in the cross would that be? It would be a total defeat with only a few survivors.

No it wouldn't, because Christ provides the way for ALL to to be saved. As is shown by his words not all will choose to be saved. His victory was the defeat of the enemy and the way provided. The fulfillment of the law so we don't have to keep carrying out the law in order to have our sin covered. Now only Christ's blood does that. It's wonderful. The sting of death is gone. And EVERYONE born has access to this. Not just the Jew but the Gentile also. But God loves us so much that he will not force anyone to be with him that doesn't want to. But the consequences of that decision are left to him to decide.

 

[rjs330]

Agreed, but if the Book of Life is not fixed then it can't be used as an argument against UR as was the claim.

Not so, the book of life lists who is redeemed. If your name is not in it, you are not and are cast into the Lake of Fire. It's an exact repudiation of UR. The Book of Life and Lake of Fire are both completely irrelevant if everyone is saved. As a person is saved their name is added.

 

[rjs330]

Sounds like a game of hide-and-seek with our destiny.
As if God has made it nearly impossible to even find.
And what becomes of the losers of this game?
Does God incinerate them? Cruel game. Blood sport?

Saint Steven said: ↑
That's the standard response, but does it make sense?

Who would refuse to hear good news?

That's what I said! Who would do that. But Jesus said who,

He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. - John 3:18-19 Bible Gateway passage: John 3:18-19 - American Standard Version

 

[rjs330]

We assume death is a bad thing.

Galatians 2:20 NIV
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Philippians 1:21 NIV
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

Yes for believers who are sealed by the Holy Spirit and written in the book of Life. There is a second death for the unbeliever.

 

[Clare73]

Does God just give up on you then it does He carrying on trying to break through as happened with Paul? I don't know the verse you quoted means, but I doubt it means that the vast majority of people go to an eternal hell. What kind of victory in the cross would that be? It would be a total defeat with only a few survivors.

Where do you get "God carried on to break through with Paul?"

He encountered Paul once and the job was done. . .forever.

 

[rjs330]

Where do you get "God carried on to break through with Paul?"

He encountered Paul once and the job was done. . .forever.

Furthermore it happened before Paul died.

 

[Servus]

But is God a murderer for doing that?

I understand what you're saying. However, would you call someone who puts animals to sleep at an animal shelter a killer? Probably not. But what would you call that same person if he put animals in a hot furnace room for them to suffer horribly but not die?

 

[Andrewn]

God ending mortal life early, often is compared to people being cast into a firey pit of everlasting torment. But are those two punishments really equivalent in any way?

Where is this often compared? Which verses? And how is it related to the Final Judgment.

 

[Clare73]

I understand what you're saying. However, would you call someone who puts animals to sleep at an animal shelter a killer? Probably not. But what would you call that same person if he put animals in a hot furnace room for them to suffer horribly but not die?

Apples and oranges. . .

Animals are not rational moral beings.

 

[rjs330]

I understand what you're saying. However, would you call someone who puts animals to sleep at an animal shelter a killer? Probably not. But what would you call that same person if he put animals in a hot furnace room for them to suffer horribly but not die?

Is God a murderer and does he advocate for murder. He asked the Jews to kill children and killed children and babies himself. Does that make him a murderer?

 

[rjs330]

Where is this often compared? Which verses? And how is it related to the Final Judgment.

The comparison is relevant, because God commands the killing of babies, he killed babies and children, men, women, entire families. Does that make him a murderer?

 

[rjs330]

I understand what you're saying. However, would you call someone who puts animals to sleep at an animal shelter a killer? Probably not. But what would you call that same person if he put animals in a hot furnace room for them to suffer horribly but not die?

What would you call a person who takes a bag of puppies and drowns them? Or takes a bag of kittens and tells someone to stab them all to death?

 

[Servus]

Is God a murderer and does he advocate for murder. He asked the Jews to kill children and killed children and babies himself. Does that make him a murderer?

Like I said I know where you're going with this, but I guess I need to let you go there. So the answer is no.

 

[Hmm]

Where do you get "God carried on to break through with Paul?"

He persisted from Saul to Paul, no?

He encountered Paul once and the job was done. . .forever.

I'm sure He tried to get through to Saul on many a winters evening.

 

[Hmm]

Animals are not rational moral beings.

Is God? If so, would that exclude him torturing people forever.

If no, why would anyone bother worshipping him? They'd be lots of better things to do, like doing the laundry, the garden etc.

 

[Clare73]

He persisted from Saul to Paul, no?

You think there was resistance from Paul after that encounter on the road to Damascus?

On what do you base this?

I'm sure He tried to get through to Saul on many a winters evening.

Based on what. . .your imagination?

 

[Clare73]

Is God? If so, would that exclude him torturing people forever.

If no, why would anyone bother worshipping him? They'd be lots of better things to do, like doing the laundry, the garden etc.

You either believe the NT warnings, or you don't.

Thin ice is risky and becomes disastrous with time.

To the wise simply a word is sufficient.

 

[Servus]

Apples and oranges. . .

Animals are not rational moral beings.

Okay... I understand what you're saying. However, would you call someone who has the job of performing executions at a penitentiary a murderer? Probably not. But what would you call that same person if he put prisoners in a hot furnace room for them to suffer horribly but not die?