Good tidings of great joy, which shall be to SOME people?

[Hmm]

There is more than one book, with different functions.

And on receipt of that bombshell I'll say goodnight! - it's quite late here in the UK.

 

[rjs330]

I've heard Team Hell ague that this won't be a problem because God's going to zap us so that we will have no memory in heaven of people we loved.on earth who God is now torturing. But seeing that remembrance of our loved ones forms an important, if not the most important part, of who we are, this solution means changing our identity so it's slightly sus.

Will you please stop with the God is torturing someone. Do you also claim God is a murderer? If you don't claim he is you are being totally disingenuous with God being a torturer.

Answer me these questions.

Is God Just?
Is God righteous?
If he punishes anyone is it an unjust act?

 

[rjs330]

We're in agreement about his. Beyond the belief that good Christians will be saved, and that the unrighteous will be punished, everything else about the afterlife is guesses and speculations.

Other than the unbelievers are NOT saved and are cast into the Lake of Fire.

 

[Clare73]

Will you please stop with the God is torturing someone. Do you also claim God is a murderer? If you don't claim he is you are being totally disingenuous with God being a torturer.
Answer me these questions.
Is God Just?
Is God righteous?
If he punishes anyone is it an unjust act?

That is the fundamental flaw in their humanistic non-Biblical thinking.

They start with themselves, and judge God,
rather than starting with God, and judging themselves.

 

[rjs330]

I've heard Team Hell ague that this won't be a problem because God's going to zap us so that we will have no memory in heaven of people we loved.on earth

Well I don't know about that. That would be speculation for sure.

Let's say Revelation and Jesus are wrong and people are not cast into the Lake of Fire and outer darkness. Let's say as annihilists believe they are just wipes out of existence.

Wouldn't we be sad in heaven over that and miss them?

 

[rjs330]

Well, the assumption made is that if your name is in the Book of Life (BOL), it's in there forever. But that's just an assumption. Is it true? In an email to Robin Parry, Thomas Talbott suggests that's it not:

"Perhaps all the descendents of Adam, all who come into the world as “children of wrath,” also go by a name that is not written in the BOL. Yes some names are written there from the foundation of the world and some are not. But is “Abram” written there? Or is it “Abraham”? In Revelation 2:17 we read:
To him who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone, which no one knows except him who receives it.
Evidently then, people can receive a new name, and this is certainly consistent with the idea of a new birth or a new creation in Christ. So is not the following consistent with the teaching about the Lamb’s BOL? Even though no new names are ever added, people can (as all Christians do) receive a new name, one that has always been written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world."
- Robin Parry, The Evangelical Universalist page 194

Parry also observes that Revelation 3:5 strongly suggests that you can have your name removed from the BOL.

"(i) The Old Testament background to the notion of the BOL clearly envisages the real possibility of being “blotted out” from it (Ps 69:28; Exod 32:32-33; Dan 12:1"
- Robin Parry, The Evangelical Universalist page 193

I think that's a topic for a different discussion.

 

[rjs330]

But is “Abram” written there? Or is it “Abraham”? In Revelation 2:17 we read:
To him who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone, which no one knows except him who receives it.
Evidently then, people can receive a new name, and this is certainly consistent with the idea of a new birth or a new creation in Christ. So is not the following consistent with the teaching about the Lamb’s BOL? Even though no new names are ever added, people can (as all Christians do) receive a new name, one that has always been written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world."
- Robin Parry, The Evangelical Universalist page 194

This is Really reaching. Jesus doesn't say when that new name is given. It doesn't say if it's before or after the Book of Life is opened. So it's kind of irrelevant really.

And does it matter? Who cares which name is in there. As long as it's me. That's all that matters. Cause I'm the same person with my name or new name. It's still me as a believer in Christ and his blood covering me as his.

 

[rjs330]

There is more than one book of life, with different functions.

While there more than one book when the books are opened, I think there is only one Book of Life. At least that's how it is recorded on Revelation. Phillipians 4:3 also speaks about the Book of Life and Paul along with his fellow laborers are in it.

 

[Saint Steven]

@Saint Steven and @Hmm and other advocates of full UR need to address this. Personally, I believe that I small minority of people will be cast out, kind of like surgery to remove a tumor.

Was this answered to your satisfaction? I guess I'm not even sure what the question is.

 

[Clare73]

While there more than one book when the books are opened, I think there is only
one Book of Life. At least that's how it is recorded on Revelation. Phillipians 4:3 also speaks about the Book of Life and Paul along with his fellow laborers are in it.

There is the Lamb's book of life in Revelation 13:8. Same book?

 

[rjs330]

There is the Lamb's book of life in Revelation 13:8. Same book?

I think all indications lead to that is the case. We have two mentions if the book of life in Revelation and one in Phillipians. And all mention certain people who are not in it and those who are. Just like in later Revelation. So it does make sense that it is the same one. And since Paul mentions himself and others as being in there, I don't really see any special reason to doubt it is the same book.

 

[Servus]

Will you please stop with the God is torturing someone. Do you also claim God is a murderer? If you don't claim he is you are being totally disingenuous with God being a torturer.

Answer me these questions.

Is God Just?
Is God righteous?
If he punishes anyone is it an unjust act?

God ending mortal life early, often is compared to people being cast into a firey pit of everlasting torment. But are those two punishments really equivalent in any way?

 

[coffee4u]

That's the standard response, but does it make sense?

Who would refuse to hear good news?

Many.

Matthew 7:14
But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

 

[Hmm]

Many.

Matthew 7:14
But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Does God just give up on you then it does He carrying on trying to break through as happened with Paul? I don't know the verse you quoted means, but I doubt it means that the vast majority of people go to an eternal hell. What kind of victory in the cross would that be? It would be a total defeat with only a few survivors.

 

[Andrewn]

Well, the assumption made is that if your name is in the Book of Life (BOL), it's in there forever. But that's just an assumption.

That would be a Calvinist assumption, not really a standard Christian belief. Thomas Talbott is certainly right, and it has nothing to do with UR or ECT.

 

[Hmm]

That would be a Calvinist assumption, not really a standard Christian belief. Thomas Talbott is certainly right, and it has nothing to do with UR or ECT.

Agreed, but if the Book of Life is not fixed then it can't be used as an argument against UR as was the claim.

 

[Saint Steven]

Many.

Matthew 7:14
But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Sounds like a game of hide-and-seek with our destiny.
As if God has made it nearly impossible to even find.
And what becomes of the losers of this game?
Does God incinerate them? Cruel game. Blood sport?

Saint Steven said: ↑
That's the standard response, but does it make sense?

Who would refuse to hear good news?

 

[Saint Steven]

Many.

Matthew 7:14
But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Actually, that scripture has nothing to do with refusing to hear good news.
I suppose you could use it to claim that the good news is intentionally hidden from the vast majority. Is that what you are saying? (probably not)

Good news must first be heard, to be rejected.
Who would refuse to hear good news? (that's my question)

Saint Steven said: ↑
That's the standard response, but does it make sense?

Who would refuse to hear good news?

 

[Hmm]

Who would refuse to hear good news? (that's the question)

It's hard to imagine that anyone would. And you could well argue that if they did, they would be of unsound mind and so would not be responsible for their choice anyway.

 

[Andrewn]

Agreed, but if the Book of Life is not fixed then it can't be used as an argument against UR as was the claim.

The BOL is not fixed by Predestination a la Calvinism but it is written from the foundation of the world through God's foreknowledge. Even if one ascribes to open theism and assumes that the BOL is not fixed at all, still this does not change the fact that it does not seem to include absolutely everybody.

1) In the NT, the BOL appears to include only believers:

Luk 10:20 Nevertheless, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”

Php 4:3 Indeed, true companion, I ask you also to help these women who have shared my struggle in the cause of the gospel, together with Clement also and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.

Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

Rev 17:8 “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

2) Believers who do not live a Christian life, are erased from the BOL:

Rev 3:5 ‘He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Rev 20:2 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

Rev 21:27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

3) Anyone who is not in the BOL will be thrown into the lake of fire:

Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.


Of course, all these verses are from Revelation, which is highly symbolic. Perhaps the easiest solution for believers in full UR is to assume that the lake of fire is for purification. But then, why is considered the 2nd death?