Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian [moved thread]

[pasifika]

True - the enemies of Christ often falsely accused Him of being at war with the Word of God - in rebellion against God's word... living out of harmony with God's will.

By "nature" we are all enemies of God..and The Law confirmed it..but the Law cannot change that Only by the "Spirit" of God...

 

[Jay5911]

Hello @Icyspark.
New here, was following the responses here and keeping up with the dialogue. I enjoyed it, for all who replied. Thanks for the post, I honestly know of zero scripture that I coulda used to refute even your initial post. (Not that I would want to anyways, I enjoy Yah’s sabbath every seven days as well) Denominational orgin arguments and subjective logic, yes. But scripture no. It was a very compelling, sound, and scriptural based reasoning.
Shalom bro.

 

[Icyspark]

Hello @Icyspark.
New here, was following the responses here and keeping up with the dialogue. I enjoyed it, for all who replied. Thanks for the post, I honestly know of zero scripture that I coulda used to refute even your initial post. (Not that I would want to anyways, I enjoy Yah’s sabbath every seven days as well) Denominational orgin arguments and subjective logic, yes. But scripture no. It was a very compelling, sound, and scriptural based reasoning.
Shalom bro.

Hi Jay5911,

Nice to meet you and thank you for your kind words.

I don't know how much you read of the thread but I'm pretty sure not one of the posters who've disagreed with the idea of Sabbath have addressed a single one of my ten reasons in the opening post. To me that's very telling.

God bless!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Danthemailman]

Delete

 

[ISteveB]

Never heard this from anyone here on CF before, but you have good understanding of scriptures.

This incessant argument that we absolutely must keep the sabbath makes it appear that man was made for the sabbath, instead of the sabbath being made for human beings to rest and recuperate from a hard week's work.

According to Romans 14, we may enjoy the sabbath rest any day of the week.
and Colossians 2, we will not be made more spiritual by adherence to the sabbath.

Galatians 5 says that true spirituality is in keeping the law of Love.

 

[ISteveB]

How "odd" . so then when God says "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 -- in your POV He is saying "man was MADE FOR not taking God's name in vain"??? Since Jesus said --

1. "If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15 - is the teaching of Christ.
2. "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6 is the teaching of Christ at Sinai in His Ten Commandments.

Are you serious??

Wow. Talking about a twisting of the command.

Jesus was quite clear that the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath.

Mar 2:27 WEB He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
Are you saying that Jesus lied to us?

Are you serious?

 

[BobRyan]

1. "If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15 - is the teaching of Christ.
2. "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6 is the teaching of Christ at Sinai in His Ten Commandments.
3. Christ is the one speaking the TEN Commandments at Sinai according to Heb 8:6-12

Interesting...

Sounds like you're saying that man was made for the sabbath.

How "odd" . so then when God says "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 -- in your POV He is saying "man was MADE FOR not taking God's name in vain"??? Since Jesus said --

1. "If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15 - is the teaching of Christ.
2. "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6 is the teaching of Christ at Sinai in His Ten Commandments.

Are you serious?? You are rejecting the text as if "I am the author of it"

Wow. Talking about a twisting of the command.

You will have to do better than that if you want a compelling argument.

Jesus was quite clear that the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath.

Indeed. It is your claim that Christ's words in Mark 2:27 are contradicting his statement in John 14:15?? really?

Mar 2:27 WEB He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
Are you saying that Jesus lied to us?

Are you serious?

I am looking for a logical argument there - are you making a point? Maybe say it another way.

 

[BobRyan]

By "nature" we are all enemies of God..and The Law confirmed it..but the Law cannot change that Only by the "Spirit" of God...

agreed. The Gospel saves. The Gospel covenant is the "New Covenant" Jer 31:31-34

 

[BobRyan]

"I declared "on oath" they shall Never enter My Rest...

God cannot change His statement when he put it on "oath" Hebrews 6:16,17

He was talking about the generation that died in the wilderness - all the rest of them went into the promised land.

6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who previously had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience

Not only the millions that did go in to Canaan - but also examples before the cross of Moses and Elijah standing in glory with Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

Hello cyspark, here are the answers..
(1) Yes, Jesus was sinless
(2) He was sinless due to His Faith (by law of Faith) Not by the "works of the Law" Romans 3:27
(3)Jesus became God during His Baptism when the SPIRIT descended on Him..So there was No law that dictate His actions etc He is God in the flesh..Galatians 5:23

To be sinless He had to be born without a "bent" to rebellion and could never have actually broken the Law of God. Two things that do not apply to fallen man. He "Loved God with all His heart" Deut 6:5 and He loved "his neighbor as himself" Lev 19:18 perfectly -- to the point of laying down his life 1 John 2:2

 

[pasifika]

He was talking about the generation that died in the wilderness - all the rest of them went into the promised land.

6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who previously had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience

Not only the millions that did go in to Canaan - but also examples before the cross of Moses and Elijah standing in glory with Christ.

Thanks Bob, yes I agree the author of Hebrews was referring to those in the wilderness in which God made the covenant with them in which He gave them the law and the commandments including the 7th day Sabbath commandment to keep, and they broke that covenant and defile His Sabbath...

The "oath" of not entering His Rest (7th day) is final, as God cannot change what He said especially when He declared it under "oath"..as in Hebrews 6:16

Therefore, God set a "certain day" (particular day) calling it "Today" Hebrews 4.

So, It remains a "Sabbath Rest" for God's people Not on the 7th day as God said "They shall Never His Rest" But another day called "Today"...

 

[BobRyan]

Therefore, God set a "certain day" (particular day) calling it "Today" Hebrews 4.

So, It remains a "Sabbath Rest" for God's people Not on the 7th day as God said "They shall Never His Rest" But another day called "Today"...

The statement about "Today" was not new/news for Heb 4 but for Ps 96 in David's day.


Ps 95:6-
Come, let us worship and bow down,
Let us kneel before the Lord our Maker.
7 For He is our God,
And we are the people of His pasture and the sheep of His hand.
Today, if you would hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts, as at Meribah,
As in the day of Massah in the wilderness,
9 “When your fathers tested Me,
They tried Me, though they had seen My work.
10 “For forty years I loathed that generation,
And said they are a people who err in their heart,
And they do not know My ways.
11 “Therefore I swore in My anger,
Truly they shall not enter into My rest.”


1. Here “God’s rest” is not Sabbath but Canaan.
2. Vs 7 does not say "in the future in Heb 4 you will stop keeping the Sabbath and should hear My voice". Rather it says in David's day is the "TODAY". Which of course did not delete the 4th commandment in David's day. Appeal to a text that all agree did not delete the Sabbath -- cannot be used to claim the Sabbath is deleted or is not for Jews or was not for David or is not for Christians.

 

[pasifika]

To be sinless He had to be born without a "bent" to rebellion and could never have actually broken the Law of God. Two things that do not apply to fallen man. He "Loved God with all His heart" Deut 6:5 and He loved "his neighbor as himself" Lev 19:18 perfectly -- to the point of laying down his life 1 John 2:2

To be sinless is Not about being born without a "bent" But is about Not commit any sins whatsoever..

Jesus was born just like any normal human beings...
Hebrews 2:17.."For this reason, He had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that He might become a merciful and faithful High Priest in service to God....

 

[BobRyan]

To be sinless is Not about being born without a "bent" But is about Not commit any sins whatsoever.. .

Someone born with a defective character - a bent to evil - a bent to rebellion, one who is by nature in harmony with Satan's kingdom of rebellion - "needs" a Savior. Of course all "have" a Savior - but if Christ also had a morally corrupt, defective nature - He too would need a Savior.

You could argue that one born with such a corrupt bent/nature - who dies so young that they have not yet committed any sin cannot be punished for sin they have not committed (which is true). But it is difficult to also argue that without a Savior they still go to heaven. With no savior there could be no removal of the corrupt nature.

(possibly beyond the scope of this thread - but still an interesting point for that discussion above)

 

[pasifika]

The statement about "Today" was not new/news for Heb 4 but for Ps 96 in David's day.


Ps 95:6-
Come, let us worship and bow down,
Let us kneel before the Lord our Maker.
7 For He is our God,
And we are the people of His pasture and the sheep of His hand.
Today, if you would hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts, as at Meribah,
As in the day of Massah in the wilderness,
9 “When your fathers tested Me,
They tried Me, though they had seen My work.
10 “For forty years I loathed that generation,
And said they are a people who err in their heart,
And they do not know My ways.
11 “Therefore I swore in My anger,
Truly they shall not enter into My rest.”


1. Here “God’s rest” is not Sabbath but Canaan.
2. Vs 7 does not say "in the future in Heb 4 you will stop keeping the Sabbath and should hear My voice". Rather it says in David's day is the "TODAY". Which of course did not delete the 4th commandment in David's day. Appeal to a text that all agree did not delete the Sabbath -- cannot be used to claim the Sabbath is deleted or is not for Jews or was not for David or is not for Christians.

Thanks Bob, I think the author of Hebrews, in Hebrews 4 "deliberately" put Sabbath Rest on the 7th day with the statement "They shall Never enter
My Rest"..Hebrews 4:4,5

With a "certain day" called "Today"...Hebrews 4:7...

The writer is putting the "7th day" and "Today" in reference to the day in which we can enter into God's Rest..

This is a deliberate way of explaining the real meaning of the "Sabbath Rest". The Jews has a different understanding of God's Sabbath Rest...

 

[BobRyan]

The writer is putting the "7th day" and "Today" in reference to the day in which we can enter into God's Rest..

If we take the Ps 95 statement about "Today" to mean "Today accept salvation" then it deletes nothing in the Ten Commandments. And always applies to everyone.

This is a deliberate way of explaining the real meaning of the "Sabbath Rest". The Jews has a different understanding of God's Sabbath Rest...

The book of Hebrews is written by a Jew (probably spoken in a sermon) - to Christian Jews. It is hard to make the case in Heb 4 that it only has a gentile meaning.

Gal 1:6-9 says there is only one gospel - and not "one for Jews and one for gentiles" as I am sure we can agree.

Gal 3:8 says the one and only Gospel was "preached to Abraham" rather than "not available to OT saints". We might also agree here as well.

 

[pasifika]

Someone born with a defective character - a bent to evil - a bent to rebellion, one who is by nature in harmony with Satan's kingdom of rebellion - "needs" a Savior. Of course all "have" a Savior - but if Christ also had a morally corrupt, defective nature - He too would need a Savior.

You could argue that one born with such a corrupt bent/nature - who dies so young that they have not yet committed any sin cannot be punished for sin they have not committed (which is true). But it is difficult to also argue that without a Savior they still go to heaven. With no savior there could be no removal of the corrupt nature.

(possibly beyond the scope of this thread - but still an interesting point for that discussion above)

Thanks Bob, yes it would be a good point for discussion, maybe another thread unless you're keen to share your understanding on that point here...

 

[ISteveB]

1. "If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15 - is the teaching of Christ.
2. "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6 is the teaching of Christ at Sinai in His Ten Commandments.
3. Christ is the one speaking the TEN Commandments at Sinai according to Heb 8:6-12

How "odd" . so then when God says "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 -- in your POV He is saying "man was MADE FOR not taking God's name in vain"??? Since Jesus said --

1. "If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15 - is the teaching of Christ.
2. "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6 is the teaching of Christ at Sinai in His Ten Commandments.

Are you serious?? You are rejecting the text as if "I am the author of it"



You will have to do better than that if you want a compelling argument.



Indeed. It is your claim that Christ's words in Mark 2:27 are contradicting his statement in John 14:15?? really?



I am looking for a logical argument there - are you making a point? Maybe say it another way.

Whose logic are you looking for?

1- show me where Jesus said that the sabbath was one of HIS commandments.
2- show me where he said that unless you keep the sabbath, you cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
3- what did the members of the council in Jerusalem, Acts 15, say matters?

I see in John 13, Jesus said that his commandment is Love.
We love the brotherhood in Christ, we love our neighbors, we love our enemies. We love the poor, needy, etc...



In looking at Romans 13:8-10, I don't see the sabbath listed as a commandment resulting from Love.
In looking at Matthew 22:36-40, I don't see the commandment of the sabbath being in the list of the Greatest Commandments.

According to Romans 14, we're further told, not to place traps into the lives of others. Paul, who was far more educated in the Law than either of us, explicitly stated

Rom 14:4-14 WEB 4 Who are you who judge another’s servant? To his own lord he stands or falls. Yes, he will be made to stand, for God has power to make him stand. 5 One man esteems one day as more important. Another esteems every day alike. Let each man be fully assured in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks. He who doesn’t eat, to the Lord he doesn’t eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and none dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord. Or if we die, we die to the Lord. If therefore we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, “‘As I live,’ says the Lord, ‘to me every knee will bow. Every tongue will confess to God.’” 12 So then each one of us will give account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let’s not judge one another any more, but judge this rather, that no man put a stumbling block in his brother’s way, or an occasion for falling. 14 I know, and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean of itself; except that to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

He further stated in Colossians 2

Col 2:12-23 WEB 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 You were dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh. He made you alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 wiping out the handwriting in ordinances which was against us. He has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross. 15 Having stripped the principalities and the powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16 Let no one therefore judge you in eating, or in drinking, or with respect to a feast day or a new moon or a Sabbath day, 17 which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ’s. 18 Let no one rob you of your prize by self-abasement and worshiping of the angels, dwelling in the things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding firmly to the Head, from whom all the body, being supplied and knit together through the joints and ligaments, grows with God’s growth. 20 If you died with Christ from the elements of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to ordinances, 21 “Don’t handle, nor taste, nor touch” 22 (all of which perish with use), according to the precepts and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed appear like wisdom in self-imposed worship, humility, and severity to the body; but aren’t of any value against the indulgence of the flesh.

So.... you want to use logic as your justification to keep the sabbath.... my question is-- whose logic are you talking about?
If you actually want to keep the sabbath, according to Romans 14, you're more than welcome to. Nobody is saying anything about that.
Trying to force others to keep the sabbath.... that's another issue entirely. Romans 14 -15, Colossians 2, Titus 1:14, all make it clear you don't have the right to demand anyone else do that.
As for me, and the people I'm acquainted with, I'll continue to celebrate the resurrection of Jesus 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year, for the rest of my life.

And as for others, I'll continue to show them that they were given a sabbath rest in Christ for placing their trust in Jesus.
Especially in light of Isaiah 30:15, 32:17, 40:28-41:1, Hebrews 3-4, 2 Peter 1:2-13.

 

[BobRyan]

Whose logic are you looking for?

1- show me where Jesus said that the sabbath was one of HIS commandments.

Heb 8:6-12 says all the commandments spoken at Sinai - were spoken by Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

2- show me where he said that unless you keep the sabbath, you cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

Jesus never said "unless you stop taking God's name in vain you cannot enter the kingdom of God"
Jesus never said "unless you love God with all your heart and soul - you cannot enter the kingdom of God"

But that is not some sort of odd "proof" that those commands are not Christ's or do not exist.

Eph 6:2 say of THE TEN "'Honor your father and mother' which is the first commandment WITH a promise"